2023 Wimbledon F: Alcaraz vs. Djokovic

Who wins?


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El Dude

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Of course not! That's a "negative!" Fedal have plenty of their own, but I'm sure it won't be featured in their combined resumes! Navratilova has the same thing going for her; plenty of positives, but a huge negative was her winning just over .500 in majors; 18-14 IIRC! :face-with-head-bandage: :yawningface::angry-face:
I disagree. It means they reached the final a ton - 35 for Novak now. Similarly with Lendl: 8-11 means that he was the guy to beat during that time. 8-11 is better than Agassi's 8-7, imo, as far as assessing historical greatness (and of course Lendl was far better than Agassi in other ways).
 
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Kieran

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Of course not! That's a "negative!" Fedal have plenty of their own, but I'm sure it won't be featured in their combined resumes! Navratilova has the same thing going for her; plenty of positives, but a huge negative was her winning just over .500 in majors; 18-14 IIRC! :face-with-head-bandage: :yawningface::angry-face:
I give credit in that case for getting there. Especially because Martina and Novak reach finals in their mid thirties…
 
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Moxie

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Well that the surface isn’t so fast is the obvious one, but the balls are different too. The game on grass is obviously not what it was before about 2001..
But it's also that the players don't play the same. While both have good serves, they knew they'd have to rally. And with two such great returners, it was not so likely that aces would feature.
 

Kieran

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But it's also that the players don't play the same. While both have good serves, they knew they'd have to rally. And with two such great returners, it was not so likely that aces would feature.
They play different because the circumstances changed. Their great returns wouldn’t offer up only 2 aces from one player across the full five sets twenty two or so years so, except that the changes were deliberately made to force that to happen. But even still, todays number of aces seems excessively low. I wonder what the stats were like over the last few years..
 
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Moxie

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They play different because the circumstances changed. Their great returns wouldn’t offer up only 2 aces from one player across the full five sets twenty two or so years so, except that the changes were deliberately made to force that to happen. But even still, todays number of aces seems excessively low. I wonder what the stats were like over the last few years..
I totally take your point, because they absolutely slowed the grass because it was too boring. One and done. Same reason they got rid of carpet. However, the surface is what it is, and the players play the game they need to, now. IMO, they had a hard time acing each other off the court not so much for the surface, as the fact that the person across the net was a great returner. Yes, if the courts were faster, more aces might have hit, but it still misses the big picture. The last time a huge server, (and mainly a server) made the finals was Roddick. And he almost won. Or maybe Raonic, but he didn't even come close. It's because no one wants a player with no game other than serve that they changed the grass. For the better, IMO. Would you have ever wanted an Isner v. Raonic final, for example? I'd rather stab my own eyes out.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Okay arrivederci good people off to work to save lives on very little sleep
I dont mind I would not have missed Alcaraz winning Wimbledon!
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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I totally take your point, because they absolutely slowed the grass because it was too boring. One and done. Same reason they got rid of carpet. However, the surface is what it is, and the players play the game they need to, now. IMO, they had a hard time acing each other off the court not so much for the surface, as the fact that the person across the net was a great returner. Yes, if the courts were faster, more aces might have hit, but it still misses the big picture. The last time a huge server, (and mainly a server) made the finals was Roddick. And he almost won. Or maybe Raonic, but he didn't even come close. It's because no one wants a player with no game other than serve that they changed the grass. For the better, IMO. Would you have ever wanted an Isner v. Raonic final, for example? I'd rather stab my own eyes out.
Oh wait I would rather watch Wet Paint Dry:) gotta go Bye
 

nehmeth

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In Northern NJ. I was keeping the pups occupied playing outside while the handlers were showing in the ring. Happy for Charlie. Sad for Novak. If Novak was going to get beaten, I’m glad it was Alvaraz. And Moxie, I think you were correct - the CYGS may have been weighing on him more than I thought.
 

Moxie

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In Northern NJ. I was keeping the pups occupied playing outside while the handlers were showing in the ring. Happy for Charlie. Sad for Novak. If Novak was going to get beaten, I’m glad it was Alvaraz. And Moxie, I think you were correct - the CYGS may have been weighing on him more than I thought.
Sorry for your man. He played so chilled out in the first set I thought he really might not have a care for history anymore. And I don't know if it was the CYGS or "just" another historic Wimbledon, or #24, or all of it, but it did start to weigh on him, I think. I agree with @tented that that marathon game in the 3rd was pivotal. From there he seemed to think it might slip away from him, and that's where the weight of it seemed to play in the match. I know you like Alcaraz, if that's any consolation. I don't know how much you saw, or read here, but Novak's wife, Jelena, when backstage, as it were, to shake Carlos's hand, which was a lovely gesture.
 

kskate2

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Carlitos had better listen to ole AP by bringing a bottle of mustard to slow down body cramps and dehydration.
I thought it was pickle juice.
He needs Mustard, Pickle Juice and an LMNT
I think if he focuses his mind on enjoying the occasion and not put himself under huge pressure, he’ll flourish without mustard. He should enjoy his underdog status and not get ahead of himself…
@Kieran So, which one do you think made the difference today: mustard, pickle juice, LMNT or something else? :thinking-face:
Final Answer

CC: @the AntiPusher @Moxie
 
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MikeOne

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I didn’t watch the match earlier, was just checking in every 30 mins as i was tied up. Just re-watching it now and what am i watching? This is the worse novak i have seen at wimbledon in years. Off balance, UfE machine which is very un-novak like. Jim courier commentating is asking what is wrong, that novak is playing aweful….

checked the stats, worse stats for novak of entire tournament… 40 Ufes… 2 aces and 3 doubles. Take his match against sinner where he played ‘ok’… he has 11 aces, no doubles…

he is missing easy shots, it’s not carlos making him miss. Novak played 2nd and 3rd sets way below his standards. With all this, was still 5 sets and carlos won 2 more points than novak in the match, 168-166.

i still thibk novak at his top level, serving better and limiting his ufes is just better than alcaraz on grass. He played poorly for about 2.5 sets and that he can’t do against alcaraz. You can credit some of this to alcaraz but not all as some of the misses are easy misses….

disappointed after re-watching full match…

he handed this to alcaraz..
 
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Jelenafan

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The one thing that Novak openly acknowledged in the concession speech was the surprise that it was on GRASS that Alcazar bested him first on a slam. He mentioned that HC and clay, yes he could see that, but I'm sure he thought he would still have the edge on the green stuff. Precisely because the grass is such a tricky surface he was taken back by Carlos learning curve and staying power in this match, expected Carlos to wilt down the stretch , as have so many other pretenders the last few years (Berretini, Sinner, Kevin Anderson, etc).

The next 2 slams (both HC) are going to be interesting, because you have Alcaraz, Novak and Medvedev as legit contenders who have all won the USO. I don't see the age 22-27 brigade, Ruud, the Crown Princes, Rublev, Fritz, Tiafoe, etc as ready to take a slam and their window is IMO rapidly closing.

Sinner or Rune could blossom suddenly, but they are at this point more wild cards.

Barring injury, there is no reason to think that Alcaraz won't continue to improve on HC, grass and clay. Even though older, ditto on Medvedev, though I think Daniil has maybe 2-3 years tops as a major contender. Novak is going to have now two serious challengers for the rest of his playing career. I hope three if Nadal comes back healthy.
 
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the AntiPusher

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The one thing that Novak openly acknowledged in the concession speech was the surprise that it was on GRASS that Alcazar bested him first on a slam. He mentioned that HC and clay, yes he could see that, but I'm sure he thought he would still have the edge on the green stuff. Precisely because the grass is such a tricky surface he was taken back by Carlos learning curve and staying power in this match, expected Carlos to wilt down the stretch , as have so many other pretenders the last few years (Berretini, Sinner, Kevin Anderson, etc).

The next 2 slams (both HC) are going to be interesting, because you have Alcaraz, Novak and Medvedev as legit contenders who have all won the USO. I don't see the age 22-27 brigade, Ruud, the Crown Princes, Rublev, Fritz, Tiafoe, etc as ready to take a slam and their window is IMO rapidly closing.

Sinner or Rune could blossom suddenly, but they are at this point more wild cards.

Barring injury, there is no reason to think that Alcaraz won't continue to improve on HC, grass and clay. Even though older, ditto on Medvedev, though I think Daniil has maybe 2-3 years tops as a major contender. Novak is going to have now two serious challengers for the rest of his playing career. I hope three if Nadal comes back healthy.
Dark Horse will be Eubanks who hit the most winners ever by one player during a Wimbledon run. 321 plus he ONLY made it to the quarters..very dangerous player if he continues to gain confidence..I don't feel he can win a GS title but we never know e.g JMDP
 

El Dude

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Nice quotes from Novak - mirroring what some of us were saying.

Now let's just hope someone else emerges to make this new era interesting. Novak will remain competitive for another year or two, but I really hope to see Rune and Sinner take it to the next level. Probably won't know for a year or two if there's anything to the French kids, van Assche and Fils.
 

Moxie

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I didn’t watch the match earlier, was just checking in every 30 mins as i was tied up. Just re-watching it now and what am i watching? This is the worse novak i have seen at wimbledon in years. Off balance, UfE machine which is very un-novak like. Jim courier commentating is asking what is wrong, that novak is playing aweful….

checked the stats, worse stats for novak of entire tournament… 40 Ufes… 2 aces and 3 doubles. Take his match against sinner where he played ‘ok’… he has 11 aces, no doubles…

he is missing easy shots, it’s not carlos making him miss. Novak played 2nd and 3rd sets way below his standards. With all this, was still 5 sets and carlos won 2 more points than novak in the match, 168-166.

i still thibk novak at his top level, serving better and limiting his ufes is just better than alcaraz on grass. He played poorly for about 2.5 sets and that he can’t do against alcaraz. You can credit some of this to alcaraz but not all as some of the misses are easy misses….

disappointed after re-watching full match…

he handed this to alcaraz..
This is a classic bit of internet trolling, innit? Can't admit you're wrong, so you just say the one you back played utter rubbish? Even the actual Novak fans around here give the credit to Alcaraz, which he deserves. I think you just proved you know nothing about tennis.

Classic sourpuss claptrap that what happened to Novak today had nothing to do with the person on the other side of the net. If not, then why did he "fall apart?" At Wimbledon? He played a fairly immaculate first set. Only lost the 2nd in a TB.

He pulled it back together in the 4th, and had the momentum. No credit to Alcaraz for some stunning and brave play? Did you actually watch the replay of the match? I somehow doubt it. You seem to be working with stats to recreate a narrative for that match that suits you.

Some people will always see a match the way they want to, especially a big one. There are Federer fans who still insist that the 2008 Wimbledon was all about Roger playing like crap. No credit to the guy who won. In 5 sets. Over 4+ hours. Plausible? Not really. But you'll believe what you want, I'm sure.
 

Moxie

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Nice quotes from Novak - mirroring what some of us were saying.

Now let's just hope someone else emerges to make this new era interesting. Novak will remain competitive for another year or two, but I really hope to see Rune and Sinner take it to the next level. Probably won't know for a year or two if there's anything to the French kids, van Assche and Fils.
I do think younger players will take inspiration. Rafa was young and on his own against Roger for a short while, but Novak and Murray didn't take long to rise up. Rune and Sinner, for two, are closer to ready. Even the likes of Tsitsipas and Zverev might be inspired. Medvedev knows he can win Majors, and I think he will again. And yes, some players to be named later, like the young Frenchmen you mention, and there are others.
 
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the AntiPusher

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Where's the ATP villain thread. It's time to give it a bump with this gem



Nice quotes from Novak - mirroring what some of us were saying.

Now let's just hope someone else emerges to make this new era interesting. Novak will remain competitive for another year or two, but I really hope to see Rune and Sinner take it to the next level. Probably won't know for a year or two if there's anything to the French kids, van Assche and Fils.
El Dude , someone mentioned to me that I EXPECT Novak's game level to remain this high for another 3-4 years. Someone disagrees with me ..he spoke of the young Americans Fritz and Tiafoe and all the NEXT Gen talent. Acourse we know Meddy and Alcaraz and we both felt FAA would be there by now..I just don't see anyone with the exception of Rune making the leap .I was very disappointed in Sinner's performance vs Novak.
 
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