2023 Wimbledon F: Alcaraz vs. Djokovic

[Moxie]

I was not making any comparisons. I just mentioned 2019 as to the way he comported himself. It was Feds last best chance, the whole crowd was strongly for Roger. Novak kept his head down and kept playing. (And he was 32).

He is, at #23, no longer chasing Roger or Rafa - big pressure off. He holds double of all the Masters 1000 titles and a triple career grand slam. He has held all four slams at the same time. At present Novak is in the process of adding. If he wins Sunday, it ties him with Roger (8) and Borg /Fed (5 straight) - there may be some pressure there, but I don’t think the CYGS pressure will kick in until August.

In my opinion, his biggest pressure will be working to keep Carlos on his heels for the best of five sets.

If Novak were content for all the rest to be the cherry on top of his career, I'd say he would be very relaxed tomorrow. But he wants more, self-confessed, so I think he'll have pressure. Or, maybe it IS finally all enough.

 

[Moxie]

I don’t see parallels to federer. Federer was was more about placement, finesse and carlos is more about power. He has some touch but so did nadal. Carlos reminds me more of rafa. Like carlos, nadal had a massive forehand which he used to dominate, he used drop shot a lot and had pretty good hands at the net. Carlos’ serve is more like rafa’s too. He has pace but it’s not federer level, federer aced more often and had more variety on his serve. I’m not sure we can say carlos’ serve is a weapon, it was for federer. Carlos’ motion looks more like a clay courter serving, more similar to nadal’s motion vs federer’s.

nadal didn’t just hit topspin forehands when he was young, he had a good slice, an amazing drop shot, he was good at the neteven was succesful at doubles.

also don’t het why saying carlos hits spectacular shots means anything. Kyrgios hits spectacular shots, nadal himself was a shot maker… this to me doesn’t make him like federer. You can have two spectacular shot makers play a completely different style.

I don't understand the reluctance to compare Alcaraz to Federer at all, as I noted above. I also think it's early to decide how his game will develop. He's done so much evolving in the past few weeks, how can anyone know?

the other similarity is carlos’ game is more suited for slower courts. I think he will struggle more on fast courts and indoor carpet vs slower hards and clay. Federer was the opposite, better on faster courts. When carlos has time, he is dominant as he has time to explode off his fh side. I see him, like nadal, dominating clay and some hardcourts but losing more often on indoor and fast courts.

I hate to break it to you, Mike, but there is no more carpet.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran - ‘Novak hasn’t faced anyone at Wimbledon in the last 3 years who even comes close to this youngster.’

yet sinner beat carlos last year at wimbledon and again this year at a masters and novak dispatched him 3 on friday. Kyrgios.. the way he was playing i would’ve put my money nick > carlos. Jarry, with a similar style gave carlos a real fight. Nick is as talented as anyone, even carlos.

You only emphasised my point. Nick? He conceded the match before the final, with all his Twitter flirts about dinner. When you’re considering Nick Kyrgios to be a tough opponent, you’re really saying that tennis is in a bad way. Or else you don’t know what it takes to be a champion.

Sinner, Nick, and don’t forget Berretini. A lump sum of zilch between the 3 of them at the top level…

 

[Kieran]

You are a tool brotha. I did actually describe what makes them different, you are too lazy to read. You are trolling.

Ah yes, I missed where you went through their differences. It was so tiny, it’s a forgivable mistake. But notice how easy it is that you switch to personal insults when you have nothing of substance to say? It’s a sign of a weak argument, or a lousy character. I’ll let you figure out which one applies to you.

The main differences are age, experience, mental approach.

I’ll read that over and over until I commit it to memory…

 

[Kieran]

Interesting thoughts on Alcaraz from Kieran. While I'm not sure I agree that he has "Federer-level" skills (yet), I do agree that he's proven to be more than just a lesser Rafa clone and, as I think Moxie said at one point, it is kind of lazy to overly compare him to Rafa (e.g. Spanish, Rafa's academy). But what is intriguing to me about Alcaraz is that he has elements of all of the Big Three. He has truly unusual (almost Federer-level) skills for such a young age and some of Novak's adaptability and athleticism and a big dose of Rafa's supreme will and ability to fetch almost anything, and then pull off a surprise strike across court or down the line. Plus, he just seems like a really nice kid - the best combination of self-belief and humility...in that regard, he does remind me a bit of Rafa, whose general attitude I've always admired and even liked best of the Big Three.

Yeah, there were people who called him Baby Rafa for a while, but he’s nothing like Rafa at all. Carlos is an opportunist on court, he’s swift to dash forward and attack, he’s almost playful in his shot selection. Rafa was grim, attritional, wearing opponents down. Great and heroic and all the other superlatives too. But if Carlos was more like Rafa I’d be more confident today, in that I’d trust him to grind it out if he needs to. However it’s his unique skill set (apart from the fact that Federer had similar) and as you say, strong elements of Rafa and Novak too that gives me hope. He’s himself, in other words. But he’s really the future and tennis needs the future to happen today, and that’s where the questions arise…

 

[Jelenafan]

Alcaraz in 4 sets
6-3, 7-5, 4-6, 6-3

 

[the AntiPusher]

As to the match on Sunday, Djokovic is the clear favorite. But there are some intangibles:

* Djokovic has the pressure, particularly of the CYGS, and the window that's closing

* Djokovic had by far the easier draw, but dropped sets to Hurkacz and to Rublev

* Djokovic didn't have to get out of 2nd gear to beat Sinner today. You could argue that Alcaraz is more fine-tuned for the final

* Alcaraz is younger and full of vinegar, and learning to play on grass in real time; hopefully he's gotten over his intimidation factor that cramped him up at the French v. Novak

All of this said, I would suggest that Carlitos avoid TBs, and a 5th set.

Carlitos will have to find a way to win a lot of FREE points to defeat Novak's defense. Yes he can hit through Novak's defense at times but that is what Novak wants. Novak's game plan is the same as Rafa's game plan to take away his opponent's legs and stamina by breaking them down from the baseline. e.g. RG semi's Holding service easily and to stress Novak's serve is the key for victory against Djokovic. Really the same As he did on Friday vs Meddy but this will be extremely extraordinary more different and difficult because Novak has become the ultimate tennis machine but just like Roger was on grass in his prime but not PERFECT as Nadal proved Roger wasn't PERFECT.

 

[Kieran]

Carlitos will have to find a way to win a lot of FREE points to defeat Novak's defense. Yes he can hit through Novak's defense at times but that is what Novak wants. Novak's game plan is the same as Rafa's game plan to take away his opponent's legs and stamina by breaking them down from the baseline. e.g. RG semi's Holding service easily and to stress Novak's serve is the key for victory against Djokovic. Really the same As he did on Friday vs Meddy but this will be extremely extraordinary more different and difficult because Novak has become the ultimate tennis machine but just like Roger was on grass in his prime but not PERFECT as Nadal proved Roger wasn't PERFECT.

I think this match might be a year early for Carlos but I hope he’ll take a lot away from it. It’s very similar to the 2006 final where Rafa’s was only 20 but still the only rival to Federer, in a threadbare field. It was too early for Rafa. Carlos will experience a helluva lot of head-turning moments today, from breakfast to first serve, and he’ll have to soak up a lot of media talk and attention, much more than he’s used to.

I just hope he enjoys himself and doesn’t come away from the experience disappointed, no matter who wins…

 

[MikeOne]

I don't understand the reluctance to compare Alcaraz to Federer at all, as I noted above. I also think it's early to decide how his game will develop. He's done so much evolving in the past few weeks, how can anyone know?

I hate to break it to you, Mike, but there is no more carpet.

Why do think i’m reluctant to compare him to federer? What would my motivation be? Federer wasn’t my favourite player so if anything i should be motivated to say he is like federer and because of that, novak will beat him.

why are you resistant to me comparing him nadal? Seems that way

simply by observing, he is just more similar to nadal than federer. We can’t just ignore the serve. Federer’s serve was completely different and one of his main weapons. Not the case for carlos, his serve seems more like nadal, a point starter. This is a huge difference between the two.

carlos drop shots a lot more than federer, off fh and bh side. This is much more like rafa who used drop shot often, federer mainly drop shotted off his bh side and not as often.

slice, federer used his slice often, carlos prefers to hit through his bh. Rafa had a good slice but preferred to hit through his bh

like rafa, carlos looks to control with his fh by using spin and pace. His game is built off his fh and power mainly. Federer’s was built on serve, fh but he used off pace slice and overall shots more often.

like rafa, carlos is intense and physical, even is built similarly

lastly, indoor, carpet or not, it’s generally faster, lower bouncing and why rafa struggled indoors all of his career. How many eoy titles did he win? I see carlos struggling more on indoors as he is more susceptible to losing on those conditions. Like rafa, he prefers to generate his own pace, not absorb pace. In any surface that allows opponents to take time away from him, he will be more susceptible. On surfaces where he has time to unwind his fh, he will be tough to beat. Similiar to rafa…

i see more similarities to rafa. One poster here stated that because carlos hits spectacular shots, he’s like federer. Lol talk about generalizing and being vague. You can have two players hit spectacular shots and be completely different stylistically.

 

[Kieran]

Why do think i’m reluctant to compare him to federer? What would my motivation be? Federer wasn’t my favourite player so if anything i should be motivated to say he is like federer and because of that, novak will beat him.

why are you resistant to me comparing him nadal? Seems that way

simply by observing, he is just more similar to nadal than federer. We can’t just ignore the serve. Federer’s serve was completely different and one of his main weapons. Not the case for carlos, his serve seems more like nadal, a point starter. This is a huge difference between the two.

carlos drop shots a lot more than federer, off fh and bh side. This is much more like rafa who used drop shot often, federer mainly drop shotted off his bh side and not as often.

slice, federer used his slice often, carlos prefers to hit through his bh. Rafa had a good slice but preferred to hit through his bh

like rafa, carlos looks to control with his fh by using spin and pace. His game is built off his fh and power mainly. Federer’s was built on serve, fh but he used off pace slice and overall shots more often.

like rafa, carlos is intense and physical, even is built similarly

lastly, indoor, carpet or not, it’s generally faster, lower bouncing and why rafa struggled indoors all of his career. How many eoy titles did he win? I see carlos struggling more on indoors as he is more susceptible to losing on those conditions. Like rafa, he prefers to generate his own pace, not absorb pace. In any surface that allows opponents to take time away from him, he will be more susceptible. On surfaces where he has time to unwind his fh, he will be tough to beat. Similiar to rafa…

i see more similarities to rafa. One poster here stated that because carlos hits spectacular shots, he’s like federer. Lol talk about generalizing and being vague. You can have two players hit spectacular shots and be completely different stylistically.

Paul Annacone respectfully disagrees:

"I think he’s a lot more like Roger than Rafa, because Rafa couldn’t take the ball early like this when he was 19, and Rafa couldn’t come forward like this. Roger could always stay on the baseline and always look like he had time, and that’s how this kid looks."

So does Patrick Mouthpiece:

I think the one his game is closest to is Federer. Like him, he’s super aggressive and super creative, always trying to do something with the ball.

"The speed with which he is able to go from the back to the inside of the court, that’s pure Roger.”

There are endless interviews where Carlos said he modelled his game on Federer. There is nothing attritional about his game - at all - and there would need to be if he was to be thought as being similar to Nadal..

 

[Moxie]

Why do think i’m reluctant to compare him to federer? What would my motivation be? Federer wasn’t my favourite player so if anything i should be motivated to say he is like federer and because of that, novak will beat him.

why are you resistant to me comparing him nadal? Seems that way

simply by observing, he is just more similar to nadal than federer. We can’t just ignore the serve. Federer’s serve was completely different and one of his main weapons. Not the case for carlos, his serve seems more like nadal, a point starter. This is a huge difference between the two.

carlos drop shots a lot more than federer, off fh and bh side. This is much more like rafa who used drop shot often, federer mainly drop shotted off his bh side and not as often.

slice, federer used his slice often, carlos prefers to hit through his bh. Rafa had a good slice but preferred to hit through his bh

like rafa, carlos looks to control with his fh by using spin and pace. His game is built off his fh and power mainly. Federer’s was built on serve, fh but he used off pace slice and overall shots more often.

like rafa, carlos is intense and physical, even is built similarly

lastly, indoor, carpet or not, it’s generally faster, lower bouncing and why rafa struggled indoors all of his career. How many eoy titles did he win? I see carlos struggling more on indoors as he is more susceptible to losing on those conditions. Like rafa, he prefers to generate his own pace, not absorb pace. In any surface that allows opponents to take time away from him, he will be more susceptible. On surfaces where he has time to unwind his fh, he will be tough to beat. Similiar to rafa…

i see more similarities to rafa. One poster here stated that because carlos hits spectacular shots, he’s like federer. Lol talk about generalizing and being vague. You can have two players hit spectacular shots and be completely different stylistically.

I'm not at all reluctant to compare him to Rafa, as I did above in my response to El Dude. What I'm saying is that it's superficial to think that he's the next Rafa, because he shares more in common with all 3 of the Big Ones than he trends towards either one. Yes, he's Spanish, yes, he's a prodigy (our first great teenager since Rafa, when he won the USO,) yes, he's well-behaved and has a certain humility, but in terms of his tennis, he's taken from all. I don't say you have a "motivation" to be disinclined to compare him to Roger, though now you have, where you think it's apt. I still think that you believe you know more about Carlos' game that is necessarily knowable at this stage of his development. But you could be right. We'll see.

 

[Moxie]

Roof is open, and it's windy today, which probably help Carlos a little...and let's face it, he can use a little help. Absolutely everything I've read and hear on ESPN today says Novak in 4.

 

[don_fabio]

Roof is open, and it's windy today, which probably help Carlos a little...and let's face it, he can use a little help. Absolutely everything I've read and hear on ESPN today says Novak in 4.

I can see there is some wind, outdoor surely helps Alcaraz. Novak prefers it indoors. Nevermind the analyses, this can go either way.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think this match might be a year early for Carlos but I hope he’ll take a lot away from it. It’s very similar to the 2006 final where Rafa’s was only 20 but still the only rival to Federer, in a threadbare field. It was too early for Rafa. Carlos will experience a helluva lot of head-turning moments today, from breakfast to first serve, and he’ll have to soak up a lot of media talk and attention, much more than he’s used to.

I just hope he enjoys himself and doesn’t come away from the experience disappointed, no matter who wins…

Brotha The Rafa fans doesn't have a year. It CAN'T be tomorrow, Tomorrow is TODAY! Heck I was wondering if Carlos tripped Novak by "mistake" as they were walking down the stairs could I sleep well. I would be AIGHT; seriously It has to Happen Now.

 

[MikeOne]

@djokerhater crew

sit back and enjoy the match. It could be a fun match to watch. The potential next goat vs current goat.

so what if novak gets to 24, he’s already clearly the goat, he holds too many records to dispute it and even has winning record va fedal. If he gets 1 more, doesn’t make a difference. Why stress about it

i am backing novak but since he’s already the slam record holder, a loss here would be fine. I also like carlos.. he is the future so if he wins, that’s that. Better to have him as future vs some less deserving of carrying the torch once fedalovic are gone. We are lucky he has come along as it’s impirtant to have 1 player who is special, rather than a bunch of pretenders… he is also fun to watch, same as fedalovic was fun to watch. I will enjoy the match… unless it’s a dud, which i guess can happen.

 

[Moxie]

@djokerhater crew

sit back and enjoy the match. It could be a fun match to watch. The potential next goat vs current goat.

so what if novak gets to 24, he’s already clearly the goat, he holds too many records to dispute it and even has winning record va fedal. If he gets 1 more, doesn’t make a difference. Why stress about it

i am backing novak but since he’s already the slam record holder, a loss here would be fine. I also like carlos.. he is the future so if he wins, that’s that. Better to have him as future vs some less deserving of carrying the torch once fedalovic are gone. We are lucky he has come along as it’s impirtant to have 1 player who is special, rather than a bunch of pretenders… he is also fun to watch, same as fedalovic was fun to watch. I will enjoy the match… unless it’s a dud, which i guess can happen.

You're so tiresome with your "hater" business. You really are a throw back to the old days, with your carpet tennis...

 

[Moxie]

Novak has take on his thigh. This new?

 

[the AntiPusher]

Novak has take on his thigh. This new?

He aight maybe it's a new endorsement!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Good evening all
No chat for this match?

 

[tented]

Good evening all
No chat for this match?

No chat — long story.