2023 Wimbledon F: Alcaraz vs. Djokovic

[MargaretMcAleer]

This. One of Rafa’s greatest assets.

Agree, 100%

 

[Kieran]

I'm not disagreeing, but since those things I mentioned can't hurt, why not? When you're clashing w/ a Titan, you need every advantage available.

Oh for sure. Whatever is in them drinks Novak said he’d reveal the contents of, they all help. Contents of his bag too, when he brings it on occasion when he strategically needs to address his bladder infirmities…

 

[Nadalfan2013]

This. One of Rafa’s greatest assets.

This is also one of his greatest assets:

Spoiler

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Oh for sure. Whatever is in them drinks Novak said he’d reveal the contents of, they all help. Contents of his bag too, when he brings it on occasion when he strategically needs to address his bladder infirmities…

He will address it when he is retired. He might not want to reveal the contents of said drink if the substance itself might be on the watch list as a potential for a banned substance.

 

[tossip]

I am cautiously picking Alcaraz to win this thing..

 

[El Dude]

I'd like to believe that Alcaraz can meet the moment and de-throne Novak, but...he couldn't do it at Roland Garros, so why Wimbledon? On paper his odds should be worse.

While I think Novak will win, I won't be surprised if Alcaraz pulls it off. He's clearly a special player and, to boot, is proving he's an all-courter. Oh, for the nerds out there, his Peak Elo started the tournament at 2290 (tied with Manuel Orantes), so I believe is over 2300 now. That would make him the 31st player in the Open Era to join the exclusive 2300 club.

I think he's got a very good chance of reaching 2400, but that's far more exclusive - he'd be just the 13th player.

2400 Club: Sampras, Becker, Vilas, Murray, Laver, Lendl, Connors, Federer, Nadal, McEnroe, Borg, Djokovic

Notably not on that list are Wilander, Edberg, and Agassi.

For some reason, all but three of those players are in the 2500 club - just the first three aren't. The 2600 club is just two: Borg and Novak.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I would like to think Alcaraz can rise to the occasion, and he very well may. He is a fast study. He is almost at the point where he should start besting Djokovic more often than not. If he does manage to beat Djokovic here, then that belief should translate most everywhere.

 

[MikeOne]

Disagree with kieran that alcaraz is like federer abd if he plays well, he wins. LOL Only a djoker hater would say this so no surprise

djokovic has 7 wimbledons, 23 slams and beat ‘king roger’ in 3 wimbledon finals. To say this match is on carlitos’s racquet is a stretch.

If both play their top level, djokovic has the edge on this court. Alcaraz is is best when he plays on slower courts as he can generate pace and needs a bit of time. Sinner has had success vs alcaraz by overpowering him by taking time away. Djokovic can do the same on faster courts.

alcaraz is a different player than federer btw. Roger was more suited for fast courts, alcaraz slower courts. Their serves are different…

alcaraz really isn’t much more of a shot maker than djokovic. His serve isn’t huge, his backhand is not better, his drop shots, volleys not better. His forehand is his main weapon but is it better than federer’s and nadal’s? it is not and djokovic learned to handle those beastly shots.

the margins are slim here. Anything can tip things in any guy’s favour. I would not be surpised by. 3 set win by either player or 5 set thriller. It really will depend on nerves and a bit of luck, sometimes when match is tight some luck is involved like an ace here and there or ufe at wrong time.

if both are at their very best, novak has edge on grass… carlos can be more susceptible on quicker courts where he has less time to unwind his fh… novak had succes on clay attacking carlos’ and that was clay…

i hope both play well, there is a chance nerves and pressure can play a part. This carlos’ first wimbledon final and has pressure of not repeating what happened at FO. Novak here has pressure of being favourite and getting 8 wimbledons, plus he knows the window is closing at 36…he won’t get many more chances

 

[Kieran]

Disagree with kieran that alcaraz is like federer abd if he plays well, he wins. LOL Only a djoker hater would say this so no surprise

No surprise that a member who only hates tennis and all players other than his hero thinks that everyone must be the same as him, reacting only in hate. Alcaraz has similar gifts to Federer: a light touch from anywhere on the court to change the direction of the rally, the ability to do things that no opponent can expect - a totally flexible technique. He’s like Federer in his gifts, and possibly of players who reach this level - already number one in the world with a major to his name - there are these two and McEnroe who excel in this regard. McEnroe still, for me, the most naturally gifted due to the fact that his game was completely unorthodox.

But look how you compared Carlos a Novak:

They really are very sumilar players. Both are supremely athletic and great movers. They have a great fh, bh, serve, can drop shot, slice and volley well. Both use variety. Both have deadly forehands, slight edge to carlos. Both have great backhands, slight edge to djoker. Their serves are very similar, both have great serves with djoker having a bit better placement, carlos a bit faster.

You could have been talking about any top players. You used only generic, relative terms. You didn’t touch at all on what makes both players distinct from each other. You said nothing about Novaks flexibility and endurance, his devilish ability to wear down his opponents. How he strategises his points. Just as you didn’t notice that this isn’t Carlos style at all. That Carlos has a tendency to be flashy, to entertain, to go for reckless shots when practicality tells him to just finish the point more simply.

You didn’t analyse them, you merely appropriated Carlos for your team.

djokovic has 7 wimbledons, 23 slams and beat ‘king roger’ in 3 wimbledon finals. To say this match is on carlitos’s racquet is a stretch.

The reason why I say that if Carlos plays his best he will win is because Novak is 36 facing a 20 year old with an enormous range. Novak hasn’t faced anyone at Wimbledon in the last 3 years who even comes close to this youngster. And Federer in 2019 was old.

So if Carlos plays his best, Novak will actually face a match, and he hasn’t faced opposition there in years. But also, if Carlos plays his best, it’ll mean that he’s handled the pressure and he’s forcing it all into Novak. Dangerous territory for Novak to be in, given his occasional fragile mental state..

 

[don_fabio]

What’s most interesting in this match is how Novak will respond to a challenge. He hasn’t had one in a while, and he can be notoriously tetchy at times…

For me too. Novak will get grumpy if things start to slip from him. I don't expect Alcaraz to be nervous this time at all. I think he will come out swinging freely, pushing Novak to find answers.

Novak got used to opponents who self destruct in important moments. He will have to dig deep here the way he has to against Nadal, beacuse Alcaraz looks like the only guy who could beat Djokovic right now.

Anything less than A game from Novak is not going to be enough. This is the match we didn't get to see whole in RG, hope this one will be an epic.

 

[nehmeth]

Both guys need to bring their “A” game tomorrow. Both guys are champions, one a legend and one a legend in the making.

Re-watching the 2019 final, Novak was composed the whole match, without emotional outbursts. He lost 2 sets and was down match points and still kept his . I hope he will do the same tomorrow.

 

[Moxie]

For me too. Novak will get grumpy if things start to slip from him. I don't expect Alcaraz to be nervous this time at all. I think he will come out swinging freely, pushing Novak to find answers.

Novak got used to opponents who self destruct in important moments. He will have to dig deep here the way he has to against Nadal, beacuse Alcaraz looks like the only guy who could beat Djokovic right now.

Anything less than A game from Novak is not going to be enough. This is the match we didn't get to see whole in RG, hope this one will be an epic.

To Kieran's point, Novak hasn't really faced rough competition at Wimbledon for a while. The crowd will be with Alcaraz, by all indications, and if he gets up early, it could stress Djokovic.

I agree that I don't think Alcaraz will have the same nerves as at the French, though there will be nerves. But if he can learn to play so well, so fast, on the grass, he can also come to this match v. Djokovic with a new attitude.

I still think it's early for Alcaraz to cap Djokovic at Wimbledon, but it should be an intriguing match. I hope Carlitos gives the champ all he can handle, and more.

 

[Moxie]

Both guys need to bring their “A” game tomorrow. Both guys are champions, one a legend and one a legend in the making.

Commies are loving this "war of the generations." Agreed they both have to bring the A game. Novak has mostly just been keeping the ball in play so far this tournament. He had a soft draw, let's face it. But he also finds his top gear seemingly at will. I saw he practiced in the wind today. By all accounts, the roof should be open tomorrow.

Re-watching the 2019 final, Novak was composed the whole match, without emotional outbursts. He lost 2 sets and was down match points and still kept his . I hope he will do the same tomorrow.

2019 was v. Federer, and he wasn't gunning for the CYGS. Very different nerves. Very different narrative. He was the young-gun in that match. Sure, it was Roger, who had more Wimbledon wins, but he was the underdog, in some ways. You know I want Alcaraz to win. I hope that he finds a way into Novak's game, and into his nerves. If they both play their "A" game, and Novak is sanguine and calm, he wins. I do think that Alcaraz will have to rattle Novak to win it all. Or Novak has a B-game day.

 

[MikeOne]

Federer that djokovic beat in finals of 14,15 and 19 beats current version of alcaraz, in fact in 3 or 4 sets.
Djokovic is offensive but likes playing defense too. With his offense, he controlled most of the rallies vs federer and his defense allowed him to absorb big shots when federer had upper hand behind his serve. Djoker’s return was key as-well, he hit some quality returns. Alcaraz is not comfotable playing defense and i think federer’s style would’ve dirupted carlos and put hm on defense a lot. Carlos is most vulnerable against someone who is more offensive than he is and can rush him. Sinner dominated him earlier in year in a masters by rushing him. We saw Jarry give carlos hell by attacking him.

i think carlos eats up defensive players like medvedev whilst novak thrives against offense.

i think novak is just better on grass both at their best but it’s doubtful both will be at their very top level… i hope we get it, both their matches have been 5 quality sets… lets get 3-5 more. I like carlos but think he needs to be beaten a few more times so he gets even better. Novak is who he is because he had to respond to losing to fedal early… carlos needs some of the same or he will just dominate the game once novak’s age gets to him and carlos will not have fedalovic around to inspire him to improve.

 

[MikeOne]

@Kieran -

you said:
‘You could have been talking about any top players. You used only generic, relative terms. You didn’t touch at all on what makes both players distinct from each other.’

You are a tool brotha. I did actually describe what makes them different, you are too lazy to read. You are trolling. You say that i generalize yet that’s all you do with statements like ‘if caflos plays well, he wins’ you provide zero in depth analysis of why, just vague statements here and there. You ask others to do the work you don’t do. You need to walk the talk or put money where your mouth is. Lead by example, READ POSTS carefully, provide in depth analysis with logical detailed arguments, then ask others to do better.

 

[MikeOne]

Kieran - ‘Novak hasn’t faced anyone at Wimbledon in the last 3 years who even comes close to this youngster.’

yet sinner beat carlos last year at wimbledon and again this year at a masters and novak dispatched him 3 on friday. Kyrgios.. the way he was playing i would’ve put my money nick > carlos. Jarry, with a similar style gave carlos a real fight. Nick is as talented as anyone, even carlos.

btw, who has carlos faced at wimbledon that is anywhere close to novak? Why not look at it both ways?

i will enjoy the match tomorrow regardless of who wins as these two play the most exciting tennis (in my eyes). Will you enjoy it or will you be worried sick nole may win?

 

[El Dude]

Interesting thoughts on Alcaraz from Kieran. While I'm not sure I agree that he has "Federer-level" skills (yet), I do agree that he's proven to be more than just a lesser Rafa clone and, as I think Moxie said at one point, it is kind of lazy to overly compare him to Rafa (e.g. Spanish, Rafa's academy). But what is intriguing to me about Alcaraz is that he has elements of all of the Big Three. He has truly unusual (almost Federer-level) skills for such a young age and some of Novak's adaptability and athleticism and a big dose of Rafa's supreme will and ability to fetch almost anything, and then pull off a surprise strike across court or down the line. Plus, he just seems like a really nice kid - the best combination of self-belief and humility...in that regard, he does remind me a bit of Rafa, whose general attitude I've always admired and even liked best of the Big Three.

 

[MikeOne]

Interesting thoughts on Alcaraz from Kieran. While I'm not sure I agree that he has "Federer-level" skills (yet), I do agree that he's proven to be more than just a lesser Rafa clone and, as I think Moxie said at one point, it is kind of lazy to overly compare him to Rafa (e.g. Spanish, Rafa's academy). But what is intriguing to me about Alcaraz is that he has elements of all of the Big Three. He has truly unusual (almost Federer-level) skills for such a young age and some of Novak's adaptability and athleticism and a big dose of Rafa's supreme will and ability to fetch almost anything, and then pull off a surprise strike across court or down the line. Plus, he just seems like a really nice kid - the best combination of self-belief and humility...in that regard, he does remind me a bit of Rafa, whose general attitude I've always admired and even liked best of the Big Three.

I don’t see parallels to federer. Federer was was more about placement, finesse and carlos is more about power. He has some touch but so did nadal. Carlos reminds me more of rafa. Like carlos, nadal had a massive forehand which he used to dominate, he used drop shot a lot and had pretty good hands at the net. Carlos’ serve is more like rafa’s too. He has pace but it’s not federer level, federer aced more often and had more variety on his serve. I’m not sure we can say carlos’ serve is a weapon, it was for federer. Carlos’ motion looks more like a clay courter serving, more similar to nadal’s motion vs federer’s.

nadal didn’t just hit topspin forehands when he was young, he had a good slice, an amazing drop shot, he was good at the neteven was succesful at doubles.

also don’t het why saying carlos hits spectacular shots means anything. Kyrgios hits spectacular shots, nadal himself was a shot maker… this to me doesn’t make him like federer. You can have two spectacular shot makers play a completely different style.

the other similarity is carlos’ game is more suited for slower courts. I think he will struggle more on fast courts and indoor carpet vs slower hards and clay. Federer was the opposite, better on faster courts. When carlos has time, he is dominant as he has time to explode off his fh side. I see him, like nadal, dominating clay and some hardcourts but losing more often on indoor and fast courts.

 

[nehmeth]

2019 was v. Federer, and he wasn't gunning for the CYGS. Very different nerves. Very different narrative. He was the young-gun in that match. Sure, it was Roger, who had more Wimbledon wins, but he was the underdog, in some ways. You know I want Alcaraz to win. I hope that he finds a way into Novak's game, and into his nerves. If they both play their "A" game, and Novak is sanguine and calm, he wins. I do think that Alcaraz will have to rattle Novak to win it all. Or Novak has a B-game day.

I was not making any comparisons. I just mentioned 2019 as to the way he comported himself. It was Feds last best chance, the whole crowd was strongly for Roger. Novak kept his head down and kept playing. (And he was 32).

He is, at #23, no longer chasing Roger or Rafa - big pressure off. He holds double of all the Masters 1000 titles and a triple career grand slam. He has held all four slams at the same time. At present Novak is in the process of adding. If he wins Sunday, it ties him with Roger (8) and Borg /Fed (5 straight) - there may be some pressure there, but I don’t think the CYGS pressure will kick in until August.

In my opinion, his biggest pressure will be working to keep Carlos on his heels for the best of five sets.

 

[Moxie]

Interesting thoughts on Alcaraz from Kieran. While I'm not sure I agree that he has "Federer-level" skills (yet), I do agree that he's proven to be more than just a lesser Rafa clone and, as I think Moxie said at one point, it is kind of lazy to overly compare him to Rafa (e.g. Spanish, Rafa's academy). But what is intriguing to me about Alcaraz is that he has elements of all of the Big Three. He has truly unusual (almost Federer-level) skills for such a young age and some of Novak's adaptability and athleticism and a big dose of Rafa's supreme will and ability to fetch almost anything, and then pull off a surprise strike across court or down the line. Plus, he just seems like a really nice kid - the best combination of self-belief and humility...in that regard, he does remind me a bit of Rafa, whose general attitude I've always admired and even liked best of the Big Three.

I see a couple of people getting itchy that Alcaraz should be compared to Federer. But it was Federer's poster on his wall, as a kid. Several commentators and writers have noted, not completely hyperbolically, that he has some of the best qualities of each of the Big 3. Many says he's more complete, at this age, than they were. He's certainly more accomplished than 2 of them, at this age. He may be approaching Federer-level, but remember Federer wasn't there at 20, either. Yes, I have said it's lazy, or superficial, to draw too many comparisons with Rafa. (He hasn't attended Rafa's academy, btw.) Anyway, I see that you're agreeing with the commies, so I'm teasing you, though I might parse things out differently than how you see the skills-comparison. Personally, I think he has great improvisational skills and imagination (which is rather Nadalesque, but also his own); and an aggressive mind-set that is more Fed than the other 2 had initially. It makes sense that the next potential-great would have incorporated some of all of them, mixed in his own brand of the cocktail.

We'll see what tomorrow brings, but, either way, Carlitos' future looks so bright, he must have to wear shades.