2023 ATP General News

Status
Not open for further replies.

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,402
Reactions
30,523
Points
113
I wonder if Don Fabio was at the final between Rublev and Lajovic?
Happy for Lajovic he has had a good tournament and a well deserved win!
I just saw photo's of Novak watching the men's final
 
Last edited:

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,402
Reactions
30,523
Points
113
Just finished watching Barcelona Final, Alcaraz v Tsitsipas
A complete performance from Alcaraz defeating Tsitsipas 63 64
When he wasn't over-powering Tsitsipas,he was drop- shotting him.
I had to laugh, he was soo relaxed he started bobbing his head to "Sweet Caroline" at one changeover.
I have said this many times, Alcaraz is soo 'special' he is a pleasure to watch
Tsitsipas is now 0-10 in ATP500 finals
 

El Dude

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,106
Reactions
5,747
Points
113
Tsitsipas "should" be peaking now. He's 24, with 24-25 being the historic peak for a majority of players. This is not to say that he couldn't peak at, say, 26-27, but there's not much reason to think he will. For one, he just doesn't seem to have "it" - the competitive fire to win when it most matters. Secondly, he's being passed by younger and hungrier players like Alcaraz, Rune, and Sinner. Thirdly, Elo paints a very clear picture: While he had a nice little spike in mid-2021, he's pretty much been at the same level since late 2019. Meaning, in over three years he hasn't really improved, which is not a good sign. If he was going to reach a higher level, chances are we would have seen it in his Elo.
 

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,402
Reactions
30,523
Points
113
Tsitsipas "should" be peaking now. He's 24, with 24-25 being the historic peak for a majority of players. This is not to say that he couldn't peak at, say, 26-27, but there's not much reason to think he will. For one, he just doesn't seem to have "it" - the competitive fire to win when it most matters. Secondly, he's being passed by younger and hungrier players like Alcaraz, Rune, and Sinner. Thirdly, Elo paints a very clear picture: While he had a nice little spike in mid-2021, he's pretty much been at the same level since late 2019. Meaning, in over three years he hasn't really improved, which is not a good sign. If he was going to reach a higher level, chances are we would have seen it in his Elo.
I feel the same can apply to Zverev, mentally to me he dosen't have it to win a major, USO was a example, just noticed you have a post about Zverev, I will go and read
 

don_fabio

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
4,366
Reactions
4,803
Points
113
Banja Luka 23.04.2023. - Duci's dream week

The day was again perfect for tennis. Sunny, warm and no wind. The stadium was filled almost to the last seat. We arrived on time, having learned from the experience of the previous days.

We watched a pretty good final. Yesterday I said that I expect Duci to have a chance to win the tournament considering the kind of tennis he played this week, and Rublev showed that he is vulnerable even though the results did not show it.

Duci showed today that he played the best tennis this week and deserved the title. He had a great feel for the ball in all three matches I watched him play, especially today. In the third set he broke Rublev to 5:1, he just flew around the court and showed what he can do when he plays well. Things got a little jumpy in the end when Rublev returned the break and reached 5:4, but Duci remained calm enough and gained the victory with experience, even though this is his 2nd title only.

In the end, we got the Serbian winner in Banja Luka, but not the one that people thought had any chance at all. Lajovic is playing nice tennis this year and I'm really happy for him.

It was also nice to watch tennis matches live. Experiences are what you carry in your memory, not things you buy.

IMG_20230423_162640.jpg
 

tented

Administrator
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
21,650
Reactions
10,468
Points
113
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Tsitsipas "should" be peaking now. He's 24, with 24-25 being the historic peak for a majority of players. This is not to say that he couldn't peak at, say, 26-27, but there's not much reason to think he will. For one, he just doesn't seem to have "it" - the competitive fire to win when it most matters. Secondly, he's being passed by younger and hungrier players like Alcaraz, Rune, and Sinner. Thirdly, Elo paints a very clear picture: While he had a nice little spike in mid-2021, he's pretty much been at the same level since late 2019. Meaning, in over three years he hasn't really improved, which is not a good sign. If he was going to reach a higher level, chances are we would have seen it in his Elo.
To me, he showed his limited mental abilities in the RG final (up two sets to love, losing in five), then a straight-set takedown in this year’s AO final. So, 0-2 in major finals. As you put it, he doesn’t have the “it” to win these big titles.

Also, his record in finals, in general, isn’t that great: 9-17 — almost double the number of losses to wins. Again, he doesn’t have the “it” factor when it’s most needed.

It is interesting that his Elo is so poor as well. No improvement since 2019? With Rune, Alcaraz, and Sinner coming up behind him? I’d say he’s shown his best.
 

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,402
Reactions
30,523
Points
113
Banja Luka 23.04.2023. - Duci's dream week

The day was again perfect for tennis. Sunny, warm and no wind. The stadium was filled almost to the last seat. We arrived on time, having learned from the experience of the previous days.

We watched a pretty good final. Yesterday I said that I expect Duci to have a chance to win the tournament considering the kind of tennis he played this week, and Rublev showed that he is vulnerable even though the results did not show it.

Duci showed today that he played the best tennis this week and deserved the title. He had a great feel for the ball in all three matches I watched him play, especially today. In the third set he broke Rublev to 5:1, he just flew around the court and showed what he can do when he plays well. Things got a little jumpy in the end when Rublev returned the break and reached 5:4, but Duci remained calm enough and gained the victory with experience, even though this is his 2nd title only.

In the end, we got the Serbian winner in Banja Luka, but not the one that people thought had any chance at all. Lajovic is playing nice tennis this year and I'm really happy for him.

It was also nice to watch tennis matches live. Experiences are what you carry in your memory, not things you buy.

View attachment 8068
Thanks Don for all your reports and I am happy to see Duci who played his best tennis this week Well deserved win!
 
Last edited:

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,585
Reactions
14,742
Points
113
To me, he showed his limited mental abilities in the RG final (up two sets to love, losing in five), then a straight-set takedown in this year’s AO final. So, 0-2 in major finals. As you put it, he doesn’t have the “it” to win these big titles.

Also, his record in finals, in general, isn’t that great: 9-17 — almost double the number of losses to wins. Again, he doesn’t have the “it” factor when it’s most needed.

It is interesting that his Elo is so poor as well. No improvement since 2019? With Rune, Alcaraz, and Sinner coming up behind him? I’d say he’s shown his best.
I also agree that the post above from @El Dude is quite telling, and all of what you say here. That record in finals you cite is appalling, and speaks volumes. I had no idea it was so poor.

A couple of folks were saying earlier today that it must be galling for Tsitsipas to be passed by youngsters. (He said something in his speech today about "a little younger than me." Hoping to imply that he still has time, but I think a lot of us are starting to think that it's running out. 5 years younger is rather a lot, in tennis.) I think it must really bother him because he has too much ego. Same with Zverev. I've dissed both a lot for being arrogant, but it's not just personally repellent...I think it hurts their tennis. They still believe their early hype, and think their talents will get them there. I wondered if Zverev's injury would "humble" him a bit, and make him realize that hard work is part of getting through the business end of tournaments. It doesn't seem to have.

Now I wonder if getting shown up by teenagers will spur anything in Stephanos. It has been said many times around here that he should get rid of his dad from his team. He definitely needs someone who will kick his butt, and not a parent who mollycoddles him.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,585
Reactions
14,742
Points
113
Banja Luka 23.04.2023. - Duci's dream week

The day was again perfect for tennis. Sunny, warm and no wind. The stadium was filled almost to the last seat. We arrived on time, having learned from the experience of the previous days.

We watched a pretty good final. Yesterday I said that I expect Duci to have a chance to win the tournament considering the kind of tennis he played this week, and Rublev showed that he is vulnerable even though the results did not show it.

Duci showed today that he played the best tennis this week and deserved the title. He had a great feel for the ball in all three matches I watched him play, especially today. In the third set he broke Rublev to 5:1, he just flew around the court and showed what he can do when he plays well. Things got a little jumpy in the end when Rublev returned the break and reached 5:4, but Duci remained calm enough and gained the victory with experience, even though this is his 2nd title only.

In the end, we got the Serbian winner in Banja Luka, but not the one that people thought had any chance at all. Lajovic is playing nice tennis this year and I'm really happy for him.

It was also nice to watch tennis matches live. Experiences are what you carry in your memory, not things you buy.

View attachment 8068
Thanks, @don_fabio for being our "reporter at-large" on this one. So glad you and your son had such a lovely time! Great photos, btw.
 

El Dude

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,106
Reactions
5,747
Points
113
I feel the same can apply to Zverev, mentally to me he dosen't have it to win a major, USO was a example, just noticed you have a post about Zverev, I will go and read
I think this is partially true, although the difference with Zverev is that his "Elo spike" in 2021 was a bit higher. Interestingly, Zverev, Medvedev, and Tsitisipas all spiked around the same time:

Screen Shot 2023-04-23 at 8.32.06 PM.png


As you can see, Zverev rose earlier, surpassing 2100 (roughly top 10 or 15) in 2017, while the other two didn't get there until 2019. Sascha initially peaked in 2017, then was up and down (natural oscillation, probably dependent upon the season), with a bit of a dip in mid 2019, before building back up and reaching his highest level towards the end of 2021. Tsitsipas had peaked earlier in the year and then fallen back to the same level he was at since late 2019, and Medvedev peaked early in 2021, with his highest Elo in early 2022...he actually looks like he's getting back to that level.

Anyhow, it is a similar pattern between the two--Zverev and Tsitsipas--with the differences of Zverev's earlier rise and slightly higher peak.
 

El Dude

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,106
Reactions
5,747
Points
113
To me, he showed his limited mental abilities in the RG final (up two sets to love, losing in five), then a straight-set takedown in this year’s AO final. So, 0-2 in major finals. As you put it, he doesn’t have the “it” to win these big titles.

Also, his record in finals, in general, isn’t that great: 9-17 — almost double the number of losses to wins. Again, he doesn’t have the “it” factor when it’s most needed.

It is interesting that his Elo is so poor as well. No improvement since 2019? With Rune, Alcaraz, and Sinner coming up behind him? I’d say he’s shown his best.
Yeah, I agree - or at least that is most likely. I suppose there's a scenario in which he matures mentally and addresses his issues, and then has a nice peak in his late 20s, but odds are against it.

For the sake of context, his peak Elo (2258) is very good, just lower than Medvedev (2316) and Zverev (2303). Those two are 28th and 30th all-time, respectively, while Tsitsipas is 49th - between Roscoe Tanner and Miloslav Mecir, both of whom were very good players (Mecir is often mentioned as one of the better Slamless players, with a short but fierce peak; I see Tanner as sort of the Goran Ivanisevic of the late 70s).

Alcaraz is going to pass Tsitsipas shortly - he's at 2238 and 61st, and that's before Barcelona. He's in the 2240s now, and with a good year could end over 2300, I'd imagine. Sinner is still a ways back at 2175 and 111th, and Rune at 2098 and 198th. But they're both going to keep rising for awhile.

One more thing about Elo: it depends upon a certain degree of consistency over time, so players who are capable of brilliance over a short time but then going walkabout for awhile, like Nalbandian or Wawrinka, tend to have lower Elos than you might think, if you equate it with "peak level." Peak Elo doesn't as much equate with peak level, as in peak consistent level. That's why someone like David Ferrer had such a high peak Elo (2348): for the year or more before that (early 2013), he was winning a lot of small tournaments and going deep in most big tournaments. After Stan's Elo peaked after winning his first Slam (2291), he was all over the place. He also won Monte Carlo, but didn't reach the SF in any other Masters, the QF in only one, and didn't get back to a Slam SF until a year later. He also didn't pile on the small titles like Ferrer did.

So it is almost like Elo represents the floor of a player's range, not the best they're capable of. Ferrer's floor was higher than Stan's at their respective bests, but obviously Stan was capable of much higher play in a given match or tournament.
 
  • Like
Reactions: don_fabio

El Dude

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,106
Reactions
5,747
Points
113
I also agree that the post above from @El Dude is quite telling, and all of what you say here. That record in finals you cite is appalling, and speaks volumes. I had no idea it was so poor.

A couple of folks were saying earlier today that it must be galling for Tsitsipas to be passed by youngsters. (He said something in his speech today about "a little younger than me." Hoping to imply that he still has time, but I think a lot of us are starting to think that it's running out. 5 years younger is rather a lot, in tennis.) I think it must really bother him because he has too much ego. Same with Zverev. I've dissed both a lot for being arrogant, but it's not just personally repellent...I think it hurts their tennis. They still believe their early hype, and think their talents will get them there. I wondered if Zverev's injury would "humble" him a bit, and make him realize that hard work is part of getting through the business end of tournaments. It doesn't seem to have.

Now I wonder if getting shown up by teenagers will spur anything in Stephanos. It has been said many times around here that he should get rid of his dad from his team. He definitely needs someone who will kick his butt, and not a parent who mollycoddles him.
I'm reminded of this clip, with Tsitsipas and Zverev being like the 2000 version. It seems that Alcaraz and Sinner, at least (don't know about Rune) are more like 1980 throwbacks.

 

kskate2

Administrator
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
31,025
Reactions
10,033
Points
113
Age
55
Location
Tampa Bay
Just finished watching the replay of Munich. I don't feel bad for Botox. It would be different if those CP's were taken from him w/ excellent play by his opponent. All four were on his serve and they all appeared to be lost w/ an UE from the baseline against someone who was physically compromised. 5-2 up w/ 2 breaks and 4 CP's on your own serve and you can't find a way to win one more point? Why not try a serve & volley, a dropshot, something to be aggressive and take control of the point? Sheesh! Doesn't deserve that win anyway. Usually, fortune favors the brave and dude just doesn't have the cahones. As AP said, Danish Angel could smell fear and cowardice.
 

don_fabio

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
4,366
Reactions
4,803
Points
113
I just watched Alcaraz Tsitsipas. Greek lost this match before it even started, he was there to lose. That's his problem, he is okay with losing big matches when it matters the most.

I was counting Alcaraz dropshots, I think he made 11 out of 13. Sure he has incredible dropshot, but the greek wasn't even trying. He didn't run for the balls for most of those. Dropshots were not insane quality, some of it was reachable if you just read the opponent, but greek didn't even try. He reached maybe 2-3 dropshots, that's terrible from him.

I like the way Alcaraz charges the net, so quick to come forward when he just smells that opponent won't do much with his shot.

This was a routine win for Alcaraz and gap between them is big at the moment.
 

tented

Administrator
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
21,650
Reactions
10,468
Points
113
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Just finished watching the replay of Munich. I don't feel bad for Botox. It would be different if those CP's were taken from him w/ excellent play by his opponent. All four were on his serve and they all appeared to be lost w/ an UE from the baseline against someone who was physically compromised. 5-2 up w/ 2 breaks and 4 CP's on your own serve and you can't find a way to win one more point? Why not try a serve & volley, a dropshot, something to be aggressive and take control of the point? Sheesh! Doesn't deserve that win anyway. Usually, fortune favors the brave and dude just doesn't have the cahones. As AP said, Danish Angel could smell fear and cowardice.
Exactly. He stayed in the back of the court, passively waiting for Rune to make an error, instead of taking control and finishing the match. It was hard to watch after a while, with so many blown chances.
 

Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
3,668
Reactions
5,001
Points
113
Location
California, USA
To me, he showed his limited mental abilities in the RG final (up two sets to love, losing in five), then a straight-set takedown in this year’s AO final. So, 0-2 in major finals. As you put it, he doesn’t have the “it” to win these big titles.

Also, his record in finals, in general, isn’t that great: 9-17 — almost double the number of losses to wins. Again, he doesn’t have the “it” factor when it’s most needed.

It is interesting that his Elo is so poor as well. No improvement since 2019? With Rune, Alcaraz, and Sinner coming up behind him? I’d say he’s shown his best.

This other stat is rather jarring on Tsitsipas, he’s 0 for 10 in 500 level finals.
 

the AntiPusher

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,008
Reactions
7,120
Points
113
Exactly. He stayed in the back of the court, passively waiting for Rune to make an error, instead of taking control and finishing the match. It was hard to watch after a while, with so many blown chances.
He is gonna have nightmares about how he blew this one. One of the biggest choking jobs in recent tennis history..kind reminds me of how that guy lost the British Open (,golf) years ago.m
 
  • Like
Reactions: tented

Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
3,668
Reactions
5,001
Points
113
Location
California, USA
He is gonna have nightmares about how he blew this one. One of the biggest choking jobs in recent tennis history..kind reminds me of how that guy lost the British Open (,golf) years ago.m
Who can ever forget that? The French dude had a triple bogey on the 18th hole to force a tiebreaker.
 

the AntiPusher

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,008
Reactions
7,120
Points
113
Watching Goffin bringing the funk to Rafa... Madrid 2020. Obi Wan had no business losing to someone like Nadal... jajaja Rafa saved 2 mp with FH drop shots . Gutsy
 
Last edited:

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,402
Reactions
30,523
Points
113
I think this is partially true, although the difference with Zverev is that his "Elo spike" in 2021 was a bit higher. Interestingly, Zverev, Medvedev, and Tsitisipas all spiked around the same time:

View attachment 8069

As you can see, Zverev rose earlier, surpassing 2100 (roughly top 10 or 15) in 2017, while the other two didn't get there until 2019. Sascha initially peaked in 2017, then was up and down (natural oscillation, probably dependent upon the season), with a bit of a dip in mid 2019, before building back up and reaching his highest level towards the end of 2021. Tsitsipas had peaked earlier in the year and then fallen back to the same level he was at since late 2019, and Medvedev peaked early in 2021, with his highest Elo in early 2022...he actually looks like he's getting back to that level.

Anyhow, it is a similar pattern between the two--Zverev and Tsitsipas--with the differences of Zverev's earlier rise and slightly higher peak.

Watching Goffin bringing the funk to Rafa... Madrid 2020. Obi Wan had no business losing to someone like Nadal... jajaja Rafa saved 2 mp with FH drop shots . Gutsy
Your watching that BS clay court tournament, you have too much time on your hands lol!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: the AntiPusher
Status
Not open for further replies.