2018 US Open Final: S. Williams vs. N. Osaka

[Vince Evert]

I would love to see an AAF ump default Serena from a match next year, for legitimate reasons.

I know how you and others feel. But i mean to be fair and reasonable. I think Serena puts a lot of pressure on herself particularly when playing at the USO that we've seen this bring out the worst (three or four times now) - as well as the best - in her. Why is that ? We've seen and known she is very intense competitor but this just does not happen at any other championships, certainly not to this extent. You would think Serena has had enough big time experience after more than twenty years playing and competing on the tour, so why then suffer such a
extraordinary meltdown in the final?
One reason could be that she was very emotional and has stated after the sf that a year ago she was fighting for her life and had three surgeries after giving birth and wanted to win the USO for her daughter. One wonders if Serena would do well to talk to a headshrinker and find the answers as well as stopping these meltdowns ever happening again.

 

[isabelle]

I will not be watching Osaka beause she is boring same with Keys and Sloane...they lack that excitement that Serena generated..

I never saw any excitement with her, only grunting, ball basher style of play, bad behaviour and rudeness...she must be the worst athlete in the wolrd what a poor role model she is !!! black or white is not important when you act like a pathetic woman hope she'l retire soon and let decent players play the game without moaning, insulting and grunting

 

[Federberg]

1 and 2 are all that’s needed to justify Ramos’ call, period. Many things are not consistent, but don’t make alright to do the wrong things or even grant you automatic rights to resort to sexism/racism complaints. Otherwise almost nobody in history should be punished as they can always find inconsistencies being applied to someone else. For you to again talk PC crap, you are a puss.

oh grow up. You must know by now I don't care about your insults. So we disagree, move on. Your desperate need to personalise disagreements shows more about who you are than anything else. Sheesh..

 

[Federberg]

That is no logic. My friend who was driving at 120 mph was not exactly hiding what he was doing either. He cannot suddenly become inivisible. He just happened to get lucky as the cops were not patrolling at that time and place. By your argument, you are insisting that the cops should have patrolled and should have caught him.

The primary duty of an umpire is to keep the eye on the tennis court. Only as a secondary thing, they can be looking at the boxes etc. As a result it is not uncommon that several coaching violations don't get noticed. Actually, I think the coaching from the box should be allowed, not because it is a good thing, but because it is difficult to enforce the rule.

What Carols Ramos did was right with respect to calling coaching violation. What he did next was also right in assessing point penalty after Serena broke the racquet. However, he should have given her a soft warning (even though not required as per the rules) before assessing her a game penalty in view of seriousness of the penalty and also in view of the fact that it is a GS final match.

I actually have some sympathy for your argument. But the fact is that Rafa's box is prolific at coaching. On this very forum, many Rafa fans claim that Nadal is one of the greatest problem solvers of all time. I would argue that he gets a hell of a lot of help from his box. You can't seriously be telling me that umpires aren't wise to this after well over a decade. The simple fact is that they largely ignore it. My point is that they are more willing to punish women for this than men. My issue with Ramos is not about whether he followed the letter of the law, he did. I question whether he would have dealt with a hostile response from a man in quite the same way. He had an inherent bias against Williams. Whether it was due to her gender or race is a matter of speculation, but his reaction was shaped by who she was. How many players have been defaulted a game in the last decade? I was listening to a pundit saying that they had looked at the data and it hadn't happened once in. the last 3,500 slam matches. You're seriously telling me her behaviour was so outside of the norm she was the only one who deserved it? And in a slam final? Sorry.. don't believe it

 

[britbox]

I actually have some sympathy for your argument. But the fact is that Rafa's box is prolific at coaching. On this very forum, many Rafa fans claim that Nadal is one of the greatest problem solvers of all time. I would argue that he gets a hell of a lot of help from his box. You can't seriously be telling me that umpires aren't wise to this after well over a decade. The simple fact is that they largely ignore it. My point is that they are more willing to punish women for this than men. My issue with Ramos is not about whether he followed the letter of the law, he did. I question whether he would have dealt with a hostile response from a man in quite the same way. He had an inherent bias against Williams. Whether it was due to her gender or race is a matter of speculation, but his reaction was shaped by who she was. How many players have been defaulted a game in the last decade? I was listening to a pundit saying that they had looked at the data and it hadn't happened once in. the last 3,500 slam matches. You're seriously telling me her behaviour was so outside of the norm she was the only one who deserved it? And in a slam final? Sorry.. don't believe it

At what point do you think Ramos should have made that third violation call then? It's not like it was a short-lived outburst. The Federer one posted earlier in the thread was a 5 second outburst and then it was done and they moved on. Serena was keeping going at Ramos... first demanding an apology, then calling him a liar... then calling him a thief... I mean, at what point do you finally say this is unacceptable? There has to be a moment where you draw the line.

 

[Carol]

Serena has been fined of $17.000

 

[Federberg]

At what point do you think Ramos should have made that third violation call then? It's not like it was a short-lived outburst. The Federer one posted earlier in the thread was a 5 second outburst and then it was done and they moved on. Serena was keeping going at Ramos... first demanding an apology, then calling him a liar... then calling him a thief... I mean, at what point do you finally say this is unacceptable? There has to be a moment where you draw the line.

He didn't manage the situation mate. Not at all. That's his job. When she sat down at the changeover after the first penalty, it was clear that she thought he had conceded she wasn't a cheat. It was naive yes. But she clearly thought after he agreed she wasn't a cheat that he was saying she wasn't penalised at all. All he had to say was, "look the rules are that you are responsible for your box". Let's leave that aside. My main issue is that in any situation with men, it would never had gone that far. My goodness, Agassi once spat at an umpire and still didn't even get punished. Yet Ramos didn't hesitate to penalise her a game. No warning about what was going to come. No consideration for the show, the competition. In a final. If you want to kid yourself that's normal then go ahead. It clearly isn't, otherwise game penalties would be fairly routine, and they are not

 

[mrzz]

@Federberg, you are a data guy. The amount of time Ramos allowed SW to rant is surely a record in tennis. It is completely the other way around, if he made a mistake (which I don't think he did), is that he was too lenient. What was completely out of line, the point out of the curve, was the player behavior. The outcome (a strong penalty in a major final) is out of the norm because it was generated by behaviour out of the norm (specially in a major final).

I really don't get it... people complain he did not let Serena know that he was not questioning her integrity (sorry, this is childish to an absurd extreme, but ok). But anyone who actually watched the video and listened to what the guy was saying know that he explained it to the player. Now, sorry, if the player misunderstood that for taking the call back.... that is completely on the player. And, yes, Ramos did not hesitate to penalise her a game. Instead, he waited for, what, three minutes? If he had given that penalty right at the beginning of the rant, we could have a discussion. But he simply draw a line. She went too far. If that is not too far, what is? Do we really want that to be acceptable behavior on a tennis match, let alone a final? Sorry, people should be at least honest enough to admit they want a special treatment to a specific player.

By the way, the NYT compiled some numbers about code violations and compared men and women. Interestingly enough people don't mention that. Men get much more code violations in every single category. The total number of violations is much bigger for men than women -- there goes the sexism argument. The only category were women get more violations than men is exactly coaching. But coaching is precisely the one item were you have different regulations for both tours. Coaching violations are in fact at least twice as frequent for women than they are for men -- so there goes the argument that such violations "never happen".

For me, most people complaining about Ramos are so desperate to see sexism/racism everywhere that they pass the point of intellectual dishonesty. Not your case here, your main point seem to come from the fact that you expect a different approach to rule enforcement in a major final (which I disagree with, and Ramos surely disagrees too), and, sexism, in turn, would explain why the letter of the law was strictly followed. But I disagree with that. We can only guess, but I would bet the guy would be much less patient with a man.

 

[britbox]

He didn't manage the situation mate. Not at all. That's his job. When she sat down at the changeover after the first penalty, it was clear that she thought he had conceded she wasn't a cheat. It was naive yes. But she clearly thought after he agreed she wasn't a cheat that he was saying she wasn't penalised at all. All he had to say was, "look the rules are that you are responsible for your box". Let's leave that aside. My main issue is that in any situation with men, it would never had gone that far. My goodness, Agassi once spat at an umpire and still didn't even get punished. Yet Ramos didn't hesitate to penalise her a game. No warning about what was going to come. No consideration for the show, the competition. In a final. If you want to kid yourself that's normal then go ahead. It clearly isn't, otherwise game penalties would be fairly routine, and they are not

Game penalties are a cumulation of violations. It was her THIRD violation and that's why it was a game penalty. Don't try and tell me she didn't know this... If she thought Ramos had left her off the first violation then why would she be calling him a thief later on?

Ramos is known to be strict. Did you see Osaka's coach trying to coach? Nope.

The coaching from the box happened. The racquet abuse happened. The verbal abuse happened. This is not one isolated incident that you let go. All three were called correctly

Game penalties are rare because most players are well aware of the system. They are far less likely to rant and rave after 2 previous violations because they know the consequences. When McEnroe got kicked out of the AO (match default) he actually admitted he thought he had one violation left (They changed the rules a little while before the tournament)... and said he wouldn't have committed the final violation if he'd known.

It wasn't normal... but neither was her behaviour.

 

[Federberg]

@Federberg, you are a data guy. The amount of time Ramos allowed SW to rant is surely a record in tennis. It is completely the other way around, if he made a mistake (which I don't think he did), is that he was too lenient. What was completely out of line, the point out of the curve, was the player behavior. The outcome (a strong penalty in a major final) is out of the norm because it was generated by behaviour out of the norm (specially in a major final).

I really don't get it... people complain he did not let Serena know that he was not questioning her integrity (sorry, this is childish to an absurd extreme, but ok). But anyone who actually watched the video and listened to what the guy was saying know that he explained it to the player. Now, sorry, if the player misunderstood that for taking the call back.... that is completely on the player. And, yes, Ramos did not hesitate to penalise her a game. Instead, he waited for, what, three minutes? If he had given that penalty right at the beginning of the rant, we could have a discussion. But he simply draw a line. She went too far. If that is not too far, what is? Do we really want that to be acceptable behavior on a tennis match, let alone a final? Sorry, people should be at least honest enough to admit they want a special treatment to a specific player.

By the way, the NYT compiled some numbers about code violations and compared men and women. Interestingly enough people don't mention that. Men get much more code violations in every single category. The total number of violations is much bigger for men than women -- there goes the sexism argument. The only category were women get more violations than men is exactly coaching. But coaching is precisely the one item were you have different regulations for both tours. Coaching violations are in fact at least twice as frequent for women than they are for men -- so there goes the argument that such violations "never happen".

For me, most people complaining about Ramos are so desperate to see sexism/racism everywhere that they pass the point of intellectual dishonesty. Not your case here, your main point seem to come from the fact that you expect a different approach to rule enforcement in a major final (which I disagree with, and Ramos surely disagrees too), and, sexism, in turn, would explain why the letter of the law was strictly followed. But I disagree with that. We can only guess, but I would bet the guy would be much less patient with a man.

The evidence doesn’t suggest he would be less patient with men. We disagree. Let’s move on. Clearly you’re not going to change my mind and I’m pretty sure I’m not changing yours

 

[Jelenafan]

What Carols Ramos did was right with respect to calling coaching violation. What he did next was also right in assessing point penalty after Serena broke the racquet. However, he should have given her a soft warning (even though not required as per the rules) before assessing her a game penalty in view of seriousness of the penalty and also in view of the fact that it is a GS final match.

I don't understand why he didn't say something in the lines of "If you continue this, your next violation is a game forfeited, do you understand?"

This is a Majors Finals match, the WTA and the USO do not want such a match, for which the network has shelled out $$$$ to be decided on violation points, games, etc.

Spelling that out and IF she continued, well everyone would have said, " she was explicitly warned."

As it is, technically it was within his jurisdiction to do what he did.

 

[mrzz]

I don't understand why he didn't say something in the lines of "If you continue this, your next violation is a game forfeited, do you understand?.

Well, lot of things could be said about this, but a funny one is that she was the one who told him to shut up.

 

[Moxie]

Well, lot of things could be said about this, but a funny one is that she was the one who told him to shut up.

That's just being snide. Since when does a player saying that muzzle an umpire? I agree with Jelenafan...Ramos should have warned her specifically how close she was to losing a game. The player was emotional, (and I've said that I understand why,) but the umpire is charged with keeping a calm head and using good judgement. I'm not one that prefers letter-of-the-law over keeping a match under control and allowing the players to play it out and the fans to enjoy it without over-determined insertion from the chair.

 

[mrzz]

That's just being snide. Since when does a player saying that muzzle an umpire? I agree with Jelenafan...Ramos should have warned her specifically how close she was to losing a game. The player was emotional, (and I've said that I understand why,) but the umpire is charged with keeping a calm head and using good judgement. I'm not one that prefers letter-of-the-law over keeping a match under control and allowing the players to play it out and the fans to enjoy it without over-determined insertion from the chair.

Honestly I think everything that could be said about this was already said in previous posts -- she was warned enough. Anyway, a fair thing to do -- which everyone seem to have forgotten -- would be to watch the video and try to listen to what he is actually saying (or trying to). I really disagree with the notion that he inserted himself in the match -- SW did that, but ok, we are repeating ourselves here.

P.S. Snide -- had to look for the meaning of this word. Thanks for teaching me a new one. And, yes, that was the single purpose of that post.

 

[Moxie]

Honestly I think everything that could be said about this was already said in previous posts -- she was warned enough. Anyway, a fair thing to do -- which everyone seem to have forgotten -- would be to watch the video and try to listen to what he is actually saying (or trying to). I really disagree with the notion that he inserted himself in the match -- SW did that, but ok, we are repeating ourselves here.

P.S. Snide -- had to look for the meaning of this word. Thanks for teaching me a new one. And, yes, that was the single purpose of that post.

Happy to oblige. I don't think this is the last word on the incident, though.

 

[britbox]

That's just being snide. Since when does a player saying that muzzle an umpire? I agree with Jelenafan...Ramos should have warned her specifically how close she was to losing a game. The player was emotional, (and I've said that I understand why,) but the umpire is charged with keeping a calm head and using good judgement. I'm not one that prefers letter-of-the-law over keeping a match under control and allowing the players to play it out and the fans to enjoy it without over-determined insertion from the chair.

She knew how close she was to a violation. She kept stepping it up until Ramos had to do something. How about a little bit of personal responsibility here? She was not a victim... she was the perpetrator.

Anyway, lets's not pretend this had any real impact on the match. Osaka was kicking her arse. The only real impact it had was on Osaka being able to savour and enjoy the moment of winning her first major. She was the biggest victim of this circus, not Serena Williams.

 

[Jelenafan]

She knew how close she was to a violation. She kept stepping it up until Ramos had to do something. How about a little bit of personal responsibility here? She was not a victim... she was the perpetrator.

Anyway, lets's not pretend this had any real impact on the match. Osaka was kicking her arse. The only real impact it had was on Osaka being able to savour and enjoy the moment of winning her first major. She was the biggest victim of this circus, not Serena Williams.

I agree that Osaka was in the drivers seat at that point; however it is Serena Williams and Osaka was only 1 service break ahead.

1 Service Break.

Someone getting a game from 3-4 to 3-5 is huge, regardless.

Again the odds favored Osaka but we’ve see plenty of one service break sets that have switched around.

 

[Moxie]

She knew how close she was to a violation. She kept stepping it up until Ramos had to do something. How about a little bit of personal responsibility here? She was not a victim... she was the perpetrator.

Anyway, lets's not pretend this had any real impact on the match. Osaka was kicking her arse. The only real impact it had was on Osaka being able to savour and enjoy the moment of winning her first major. She was the biggest victim of this circus, not Serena Williams.

You are not allowing for her own personal outrage at being sanctioned, once again, at the USO, where she'd been hit with letter of the law violations that others get, I think, more sway on. I don't think anyone has said that she wasn't the author of her own destruction, to some extent. But it is a puny understanding of her reality, and the circumstance. Sure, it looked like she was going down, anyway. But she was protesting that, once again, she was getting punished at the USO. Is it that hard for you to look at her experience there (and at other events) and not see a bit of a reason to get exercised? I'm sure you have more perspective and empathy than that. As to Osaka...I'm sorry if her moment was a bit stolen. I felt that way about Rafa winning the AO in '09, when Roger cried and made it about himself. Over time, though, you realize that winning is better, and that's the consolation.

 

[britbox]

You are not allowing for her own personal outrage at being sanctioned, once again, at the USO, where she'd been hit with letter of the law violations that others get, I think, more sway on. I don't think anyone has said that she wasn't the author of her own destruction, to some extent. But it is a puny understanding of her reality, and the circumstance. Sure, it looked like she was going down, anyway. But she was protesting that, once again, she was getting punished at the USO. Is it that hard for you to look at her experience there (and at other events) and not see a bit of a reason to get exercised? I'm sure you have more perspective and empathy than that. As to Osaka...I'm sorry if her moment was a bit stolen. I felt that way about Rafa winning the AO in '09, when Roger cried and made it about himself. Over time, though, you realize that winning is better, and that's the consolation.

Let's break this down Moxie because you're not comparing apples with oranges with any of this...

First violation:

Williams said it was just a thumbs up from the coach... It wasn't. The coach admitted it wasn't and conceded it was coaching.
She received a warning for this. She did not lose any points. Ramos agreed she wasn't a cheat in the aftermath - but the coaching is still a violation regardless. That one is on Patrick. It's a warning... move on.

Second violation:

Serena smashed her racquet after double faulting. This is an automatic violation. Show me all the points where players have smashed a racquet in modern times and not been penalised. Every umpire penalises this. This is where she lost a point.

Serena then refers back to the first point, demanding an apology from Ramos for the earlier violation. Ramos holds his ground. Again, Patrick later admitted coaching (it was not the thumbs up Serena claimed). If anybody should be getting an apology, it's Ramos.

I don't think the coaching made any difference by the way but let's not pretend in any way, shape or form that Patrick was not trying to get a message to Serena. It's on tape and admitted by him. Is that Serena's fault? Maybe not, but it's Team Williams fault and it rests with Patrick. They all know Ramos is a stickler for rules. "They all do it"... doesn't really wash. Nobody saw Osaka's coach doing it.

Third violation:

Serena knows she is on a game default violation next. That was beyond doubt after the second violation, so commentary that she didn't know is totally wrong.

Moxie - you posted up a video of Federer questioning a call where he called it a bullshit call. If Serena had done the same and moved on like Federer then I doubt very much she gets penalised a game default. Questioning a call and saying an umpire got a call wrong is in a different ballpark than calling an umpire a liar and a thief. You are questioning his entire integrity rather than making a mistake with a call. (And it wasn't even a mistake).

Serena said he attacked her character (he didn't - he called Patrick on coaching).
She said he should apologise (he had nothing to apologise for)
She said he would never umpire a match of hers again as long as he lived.
She called him a liar.
She said he stole a point.
She called him a thief.

This was a lengthy tirade insulting his character and integrity. It goes beyond arguing a wrong call.

 

[britbox]

Djokovic got a coaching violation from Carlos in the QFs of the French by the way. Was that due to racism and sexism too?