2018 NBA Finals: Warriors - Cavs (Part 4)

[brokenshoelace]

oh dear lord... I hope this isn't the start of some sort of fucked up narrative. Feels like some sort of answer to why the MJ v LJ debate should go on (I feel embarrassed for anyone who brings that nonsense up after this)

It's a team sport. MJ might be the GOAT, but he A) never played against a team this good and B) never played on a team this bad. So if these finals, to you, are supposed to be some proof of anything then I'm not sure what to say. I love Jordan, he's my favorite athlete of all time, but I'll flat out say that I don't know if he could have dragged this Cavs team to a final.

Also, the Lebron story is legit. His hand was in a cast. Sure, you can be a conspiracy theorist and say it's all an act, including the cast, as I know how you feel about excuses... Except, sometimes injuries are real. I don't think the Cavs were going to win a game after blowing game 1, no matter the state of Lebron's hand or fatigue. But people who deny or question the legitimacy of this injury are way too insecure about their narrative.

...somehow you don't have the same attitude re: Steph and bring up how he was injured in 2016 despite the fact that after his return, he went nuclear on Portland and OKC.

PS: This story doesn't make Lebron look good in the slightest. It's a very stupid thing to do and he paid the price.

 

[DarthFed]

It's a team sport. MJ might be the GOAT, but he A) never played against a team this good and B) never played on a team this bad. So if these finals, to you, are supposed to be some proof of anything then I'm not sure what to say. I love Jordan, he's my favorite athlete of all time, but I'll flat out say that I don't know if he could have dragged this Cavs team to a final.

Also, the Lebron story is legit. His hand was in a cast. Sure, you an be a conspiracy theorist and say it's all an act, including the cast, as I know how you feel about excuses... Except, sometimes injuries are real. I don't think the Cavs were going to win a game after blowing game 1, no matter the state of Lebron's hand or fatigue. But people who deny or question the legitimacy of this injury are way too insecure about their narrative.

...somehow you don't have the same attitude re: Steph and bring up how he was injured in 2016 despite the fact that after his return, he went nuclear on Portland and OKC.

PS: This story doesn't make Lebron look good in the slightest. It's a very stupid thing to do and he paid the price.

Totally agree with this aside from the fact that MJ did play on teams this bad his first few years and he didn't make it out of the first round. But that is not a fair comparison since it was his first few seasons and it also took LeBron a few seasons just to make the playoffs. MJ is the only other guy who might have been able to get this cast of clowns to the finals, and I say might.

I'm absolutely shocked to hear LeBron would be that dumb. He joins fairly recent players such as Odell Beckham Jr (NFL superstar clown receiver) and Amare Stoudemire as guys who hurt themselves punching things in frustration. Not a good look for LeBron to say the least.

 

[mrzz]

Guys, I guess I spent a good 7 or 8 years without watching a NBA match. I use to follow it with some regularity prior to that. Then I watched the second half of game three. Maybe this was a point out of the curve, but... hell, the level seemed quite low for a final (apart from Durant). Even physically, really not impressed.

Actually I saw another half match during the regular season, I guess it was Detroit x Boston or something like that. It sucked really hard too...

So, honest question: do you guys feel like that too, or is it just memory making its tricks?

 

[Federberg]

It's a team sport. MJ might be the GOAT, but he A) never played against a team this good and B) never played on a team this bad. So if these finals, to you, are supposed to be some proof of anything then I'm not sure what to say. I love Jordan, he's my favorite athlete of all time, but I'll flat out say that I don't know if he could have dragged this Cavs team to a final.

Also, the Lebron story is legit. His hand was in a cast. Sure, you can be a conspiracy theorist and say it's all an act, including the cast, as I know how you feel about excuses... Except, sometimes injuries are real. I don't think the Cavs were going to win a game after blowing game 1, no matter the state of Lebron's hand or fatigue. But people who deny or question the legitimacy of this injury are way too insecure about their narrative.

...somehow you don't have the same attitude re: Steph and bring up how he was injured in 2016 despite the fact that after his return, he went nuclear on Portland and OKC.

PS: This story doesn't make Lebron look good in the slightest. It's a very stupid thing to do and he paid the price.

My reaction is more to bringing up this injury stuff now. And yes it's consistent with my abhorrence for excusing making. And no I don't give a Steph a pass for his injury in 16. I bring it up specifically because people always say that the Cavs would have won in 15 if not for injuries to Love and Kyrie. You can't have it both ways. For the record I think the Dubs would have won in 16 if Draymond hadn't been ejected. Momentum is a thing. Hope that clears that up.

Re: the MJ-LJ thing. The reason I raised the issue is the plain fact that I can't see MJ just surrendering like Lebron did today. Sorry I just don't see it. I actually agree with DF that in practical terms Lebron is a more physically gifted player than MJ. My issue has always been about greatness. There's a difference, and physical attributes are just a part of it

 

[Federberg]

I hear Eriza is willing to take a discount to join the Dubs. So which centres do they get rid of? I'm thinking Looney and Zaza

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

It's a team sport. MJ might be the GOAT, but he A) never played against a team this good and B) never played on a team this bad. So if these finals, to you, are supposed to be some proof of anything then I'm not sure what to say. I love Jordan, he's my favorite athlete of all time, but I'll flat out say that I don't know if he could have dragged this Cavs team to a final.

Also, the Lebron story is legit. His hand was in a cast. Sure, you can be a conspiracy theorist and say it's all an act, including the cast, as I know how you feel about excuses... Except, sometimes injuries are real. I don't think the Cavs were going to win a game after blowing game 1, no matter the state of Lebron's hand or fatigue. But people who deny or question the legitimacy of this injury are way too insecure about their narrative.

...somehow you don't have the same attitude re: Steph and bring up how he was injured in 2016 despite the fact that after his return, he went nuclear on Portland and OKC.

PS: This story doesn't make Lebron look good in the slightest. It's a very stupid thing to do and he paid the price.

Quick opinion and disagreement here, and of course it is totally personal opinion: I am thinking about the best team MJ played in, and comparing the pieces to what Cavs have...Let's say MJ and Bron are equals, and compare the rest. The only player that I would take from the Bulls roster for sure is Pippen man. I mean, I would probably take Love over Kukoc or Tompson over Longley. And probably even JRS over Harper. Is Kerr better than Korver? I am not too sure about that either.

My point is, Jordan did not have a super cast around him either , not in the GSW sense, but he probably pushed them to their limits and extracted every bit of performance out of them better than any other player or coach could.

Congrats to GSW by the way. What a team...

 

[DarthFed]

My reaction is more to bringing up this injury stuff now. And yes it's consistent with my abhorrence for excusing making. And no I don't give a Steph a pass for his injury in 16. I bring it up specifically because people always say that the Cavs would have won in 15 if not for injuries to Love and Kyrie. You can't have it both ways. For the record I think the Dubs would have won in 16 if Draymond hadn't been ejected. Momentum is a thing. Hope that clears that up.

Re: the MJ-LJ thing. The reason I raised the issue is the plain fact that I can't see MJ just surrendering like Lebron did today. Sorry I just don't see it. I actually agree with DF that in practical terms Lebron is a more physically gifted player than MJ. My issue has always been about greatness. There's a difference, and physical attributes are just a part of it

I don't see it as an excuse mostly because LeBron still had a pretty damn good finals. It'd be one thing if he was shut down and then brought this up.

I also don't think LeBron gave up and it just goes back to what I said at the beginning, if this team was going to have a chance you'd need big performances out of a few of the other guys. And they specifically needed 3's last night and if Bron's hand was hurt it'd best come from Korver, Love and others.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Wow, if Windhorst would admit that LeBron punched the blackboard after game 1 then it probably happened. That guy spends 24/7 hanging from LeBron's nuts and this is a story that obviously makes LeBron look bad. I don't think we've heard a story where he completely loses his cool and does something that stupid. That game 1 loss was obviously the ultimate gut punch for him.

Yeah..that’s Lebron’s dumbass issue

 

[DarthFed]

Quick opinion and disagreement here, and of course it is totally personal opinion: I am thinking about the best team MJ played in, and comparing the pieces to what Cavs have...Let's say MJ and Bron are equals, and compare the rest. The only player that I would take from the Bulls roster for sure is Pippen man. I mean, I would probably take Love over Kukoc or Tompson over Longley. And probably even JRS over Harper. Is Kerr better than Korver? I am not too sure about that either.

My point is, Jordan did not have a super cast around him either , not in the GSW sense, but he probably pushed them to their limits and extracted every bit of performance out of them better than any other player or coach could.

Congrats to GSW by the way. What a team...

I don't think Jordan had a super cast around him but are you seriously arguing Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr and others aren't way way way beyond a cast of Love, JR and Korver? Not to mention probably the greatest coach in NBA history

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I don't think Jordan had a super cast around him but are you seriously arguing Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr and others aren't way way way beyond a cast of Love, JR and Korver? Not to mention probably the greatest coach in NBA history

Compare them as players individually. Chicago was a TEAM. Cavs are not a team. Would you take Longley over Tompson for example?
The problem with the Cavs is not the individual pieces in my opinion. And Jordan made that roster into a team, obviously with the coach.

 

[brokenshoelace]

My reaction is more to bringing up this injury stuff now. And yes it's consistent with my abhorrence for excusing making. And no I don't give a Steph a pass for his injury in 16. I bring it up specifically because people always say that the Cavs would have won in 15 if not for injuries to Love and Kyrie. You can't have it both ways. For the record I think the Dubs would have won in 16 if Draymond hadn't been ejected. Momentum is a thing. Hope that clears that up.

Re: the MJ-LJ thing. The reason I raised the issue is the plain fact that I can't see MJ just surrendering like Lebron did today. Sorry I just don't see it. I actually agree with DF that in practical terms Lebron is a more physically gifted player than MJ. My issue has always been about greatness. There's a difference, and physical attributes are just a part of it

A player being dumb and ejected is not the same as TWO players being injured (leaving Lebron alone for the whole series, as opposed to the Warriors who played ONE game AT HOME without Draymond, while having Steph and Klay), and Steph being supposedly injured despite going nuclear on Portland and OKC (don't you always dismiss Nadal's injury vs. Soderling because he crushed Hewitt the previous round? Funny how that works) and PLAYING every game in the finals is NOT the same as both Love and Kyrie being out for the whole series. The fact that anyone thinks the two are comparable is ridiculous.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Quick opinion and disagreement here, and of course it is totally personal opinion: I am thinking about the best team MJ played in, and comparing the pieces to what Cavs have...Let's say MJ and Bron are equals, and compare the rest. The only player that I would take from the Bulls roster for sure is Pippen man. I mean, I would probably take Love over Kukoc or Tompson over Longley. And probably even JRS over Harper. Is Kerr better than Korver? I am not too sure about that either.

My point is, Jordan did not have a super cast around him either , not in the GSW sense, but he probably pushed them to their limits and extracted every bit of performance out of them better than any other player or coach could.

Congrats to GSW by the way. What a team...

I strongly disagree with this.

First of all, the Bulls had Phil Jackson. Perhaps the greatest coach of all time. Not Ty Lue. This strongly explains why as you say, they were a team, unlike the Cavs.

Secondly, if Love is the second best player on the Cavs and Pippen is on the Bulls, then that tells you all you need to know, because Pippen is a legit all time great (one of the most underrated players of all time, who almost carried the Bulls to the finals in 1994 and was robbed against the Knicks), while Kevin Love is Kevin Love. Thirdly, the Cavs would love to have a defensive presence and rebounding machine like Rodman. Those teams aren't comparable even on an individual level.

 

[Federberg]

A player being dumb and ejected is not the same as TWO players being injured (leaving Lebron alone for the whole series, as opposed to the Warriors who played ONE game AT HOME without Draymond, while having Steph and Klay), and Steph being supposedly injured despite going nuclear on Portland and OKC (don't you always dismiss Nadal's injury vs. Soderling because he crushed Hewitt the previous round? Funny how that works) and PLAYING every game in the finals is NOT the same as both Love and Kyrie being out for the whole series. The fact that anyone thinks the two are comparable is ridiculous.

ha! Who ever said it was the same thing? I believe the Dubs would have won that series if Draymond hadn't been ejected. That stands by itself. Did the Dubs get lucky in 15? Of course there's a case to argue that. But Steph was compromised in 16, I can't remember who, but someone else got injured. If you're going to talk about 15 and make the case for the Cavs you are the one being inconsistent if you don't at least acknowledge that there was some good fortune for the Cavs in 16. I just don't get the refusal to accept that. I put that argument forward not because it's something I'm comfortable doing, but I'm fighting fire with the same fire you guys throw my way. Personally I could do without any injury talk at all. But please don't bring up injuries in 15 and ignore them in 16. It makes no sense

 

[Federberg]

And by the way that argument the Dubs being lucky in 15 is trotted around seemingly to diminish Steph which I simply don't agree with. Anyway folks who want to do that can keep on at it if they want. Steph is a 3 time champion now no matter what anyone says. It is what it is and that's all it is

 

[DarthFed]

Compare them as players individually. Chicago was a TEAM. Cavs are not a team. Would you take Longley over Tompson for example?
The problem with the Cavs is not the individual pieces in my opinion. And Jordan made that roster into a team, obviously with the coach.

I wouldn't take Longley over Thompson but even lining up individual talents it just isn't close. Pippen was a tremendous all-around player, Love just isn't comparable. I feel like you may be ignoring the difference in defensive abilities between the teams.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I strongly disagree with this.

First of all, the Bulls had Phil Jackson. Perhaps the greatest coach of all time. Not Ty Lue. This strongly explains why as you say, they were a team, unlike the Cavs.

Secondly, if Love is the second best player on the Cavs and Pippen is on the Bulls, then that tells you all you need to know, because Pippen is a legit all time great (one of the most underrated players of all time, who almost carried the Bulls to the finals in 1994 and was robbed against the Knicks), while Kevin Love is Kevin Love. Thirdly, the Cavs would love to have a defensive presence and rebounding machine like Rodman. Those teams aren't comparable even on an individual level.

I think we agree on most points actually. The Phil factor, Bulls being a real team unlike Cavs.
But all I am saying is comparing individual players after Pippen. Because I already mentioned Pippen is a one of a kind player.
Wouldn't you at least entertain the idea that Tompson could replace Longley, Korver is as good a shooter as Kerr, JR could be more productive than Harper, etc ?
All I am saying is the Jordan factor is huge in getting players to do what they are supposed to do, keeping them in line by any means necessary. Jordan was able to control a guy like Rodman to a degree FFS ! With Jackson of course. People had defined roles in the Bulls and and everybody were on the same page. Cavs were never on the same page . In the Bulls, after MJ and Pippen, I am seeing a whole lot of good but not great players that played their roles to perfection. I have not seen that in the Cavs. Could be Lou, could be the Bron did not or does not push teammates as hard as MJ used to do.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I wouldn't take Longley over Thompson but even lining up individual talents it just isn't close. Pippen was a tremendous all-around player, Love just isn't comparable. I feel like you may be ignoring the difference in defensive abilities between the teams.

But one of the keys to being a great defensive team is actually being a TEAM. Bulls had that. Cavs does not. Team defense. Trust. How good was Kerr as a defender individually? Or Kukoc? Or Wellington, Paxon, etc? They killed you as a team though.

 

[DarthFed]

But one of the keys to being a great defensive team is actually being a TEAM. Bulls had that. Cavs does not. Team defense. Trust. How good was Kerr as a defender individually? Or Kukoc? Or Wellington, Paxon, etc? They killed you as a team though.

I agree with the team aspect and that's also very much down to coaching. But the problem with the Cavs is that they are an all around unathletic team and even from an individual level it just isn't close talent wise between them. Pippen and Rodman are considered two of the best defensive players in history too. It's quite the chasm on that end. I do think the Bulls had quite a bit more all around scoring talent as well but that's a closer argument IMO.

 

[DarthFed]

And by the way that argument the Dubs being lucky in 15 is trotted around seemingly to diminish Steph which I simply don't agree with. Anyway folks who want to do that can keep on at it if they want. Steph is a 3 time champion now no matter what anyone says. It is what it is and that's all it is

I've always said that 2015 and 2016 pretty much canceled each other out as far as luck. I do agree with BS though that you can't really compare injuries to Irving and Love to Draymond mentally screwing up. But Bogut did get injured too and that changed the dynamic a lot. But if you're a Warriors fan you'll bring up 2016 as unlucky and ignore 2015 and if you're a Cavs fan it's the opposite.

 

[brokenshoelace]

ha! Who ever said it was the same thing? I believe the Dubs would have won that series if Draymond hadn't been ejected. That stands by itself. Did the Dubs get lucky in 15? Of course there's a case to argue that. But Steph was compromised in 16, I can't remember who, but someone else got injured. If you're going to talk about 15 and make the case for the Cavs you are the one being inconsistent if you don't at least acknowledge that there was some good fortune for the Cavs in 16. I just don't get the refusal to accept that. I put that argument forward not because it's something I'm comfortable doing, but I'm fighting fire with the same fire you guys throw my way. Personally I could do without any injury talk at all. But please don't bring up injuries in 15 and ignore them in 16. It makes no sense

I'll play the Federberg card: What proof is there that Steph was compromised? Again, he went insane on Portland and on OKC in games 6 and 7. Why was he compromised in the finals?

And again, if you seriously think someone HAS to bring up Steph's injury despite the fact that he FUCKING PLAYED (and had played well until the finals) when they mention TWO PLAYERS BEING COMPLETELY OUT OF THE WHOLE SERIES in 2015 (yes, I'm using all caps to highlight how obvious the difference is, to most people) you're really reaching. This is false equivalency at its finest.