2018 NBA Finals: Warriors - Cavs (Part 4)

[brokenshoelace]

I've always said that 2015 and 2016 pretty much canceled each other out as far as luck. I do agree with BS though that you can't really compare injuries to Irving and Love to Draymond mentally screwing up. But Bogut did get injured too and that changed the dynamic a lot. But if you're a Warriors fan you'll bring up 2016 as unlucky and ignore 2015 and if you're a Cavs fan it's the opposite.

The main difference is that Bogut is a role player, Love and Kyrie are all-stars. Also, the Warriors' luck in 2015 was no limited to the finals. They didn't play a single team that wasn't compromised and were very lucky with Durant and Westbrook's injuries during the regular season that made them avoid OKC, especially since that was a Warriors team that hadn't done it yet so the confidence wasn't quite there, and frankly, they weren't as good as they went on to become. Not Draymond, not Steph, not Klay.

 

[Federberg]

I've always said that 2015 and 2016 pretty much canceled each other out as far as luck. I do agree with BS though that you can't really compare injuries to Irving and Love to Draymond mentally screwing up. But Bogut did get injured too and that changed the dynamic a lot. But if you're a Warriors fan you'll bring up 2016 as unlucky and ignore 2015 and if you're a Cavs fan it's the opposite.

I'm really confused, am I writing things in the wrong way? Let me repeat it again. I bring up the injuries in 16 as a counter to the injuries in 15, i.e., if you are going argue injuries favoured the Dubs in 15, you have to do the same for the Cavs in 16. I'm comfortable saying that the Cavs could have won in 15, but the Dubs could also have won in 16, just based on how injuries played out. But... and please take careful note... for me Draymond getting ejected was decisive. I am not comparing Cavs injuries in 15 to Draymond getting ejected in 16. As I have argued regarding tennis many times injuries are a part of sport. I think that Draymond was harshly ejected, kudos to Lebron for employing the dark arts back at Draymond. Had that not happened the Dubs were winning that series. I hope I don't have to clarify this again because it seems like I've had to re-state this several times now. I don't understand what's getting lost in translation

 

[DarthFed]

The main difference is that Bogut is a role player, Love and Kyrie are all-stars. Also, the Warriors' luck in 2015 was no limited to the finals. They didn't play a single team that wasn't compromised and were very lucky with Durant and Westbrook's injuries during the regular season that made them avoid OKC, especially since that was a Warriors team that hadn't done it yet so the confidence wasn't quite there, and frankly, they weren't as good as they went on to become. Not Draymond, not Steph, not Klay.

I'm not into comparing degrees of luck. Getting lucky is getting lucky and unfortunately injuries certainly played a part in both finals. Bogut was a pretty good player and it took away the rim protection.

 

[DarthFed]

I'm really confused, am I writing things in the wrong way? Let me repeat it again. I bring up the injuries in 16 as a counter to the injuries in 15, i.e., if you are going argue injuries favoured the Dubs in 15, you have to do the same for the Cavs in 16. I'm comfortable saying that the Cavs could have won in 15, but the Dubs could also have won in 16, just based on how injuries played out. But... and please take careful note... for me Draymond getting ejected was decisive. I am not comparing Cavs injuries in 15 to Draymond getting ejected in 16. As I have argued regarding tennis many times injuries are a part of sport. I think that Draymond was harshly ejected, kudos to Lebron for employing the dark arts back at Draymond. Had that not happened the Dubs were winning that series. I hope I don't have to clarify this again because it seems like I've had to re-state this several times now. I don't understand what's getting lost in translation

I was just making a general statement on how I look at 2015 and 2016. Because a lot of fans I talk to will talk about how lucky the Cavs were in 2016 and ignore 2015. I know you're not doing that here.

The only thing I disagree with is that you seem to think Draymond got screwed over and I'm not sure if you recall what Draymond did that playoffs. Frankly he should've been suspended for all the ball hunting he did vs OKC. And if that happened they might not even make the finals. Suspensions suck but if you're going to be a retard multiple times then they are there for a reason.

 

[Federberg]

I'll play the Federberg card: What proof is there that Steph was compromised? Again, he went insane on Portland and on OKC in games 6 and 7. Why was he compromised in the finals?

And again, if you seriously think someone HAS to bring up Steph's injury despite the fact that he FUCKING PLAYED (and had played well until the finals) when they mention TWO PLAYERS BEING COMPLETELY OUT OF THE WHOLE SERIES in 2015 (yes, I'm using all caps to highlight how obvious the difference is, to most people) you're really reaching. This is false equivalency at its finest.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here. You guys argue that the Dubs were lucky in 2015 then accuse me of using injuries as an excuse. Curry got injured in the first round against the Rockets I believe. His knee put him out for 2 weeks. 2 weeks! He suffered further injuries to his elbow and ankle when he came back. The guy played on adrenalin and had some blow out games. But he was never able to play at the level he had sustained through out the season. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that Kevin Love would have been able to lock him down the way he was playing during the regular season? Come on man be serious. And despite all this, that's not my explanation for why the Dubs lost. I have only ever brought up injuries to point out that it cuts both ways. Don't tell me GSW was lucky in 2015 and then ignore their bad luck in 2016. It's a false argument

 

[Federberg]

I was just making a general statement on how I look at 2015 and 2016. Because a lot of fans I talk to will talk about how lucky the Cavs were in 2016 and ignore 2015. I know you're not doing that here.

The only thing I disagree with is that you seem to think Draymond got screwed over and I'm not sure if you recall what Draymond did that playoffs. Frankly he should've been suspended for all the ball hunting he did vs OKC. And if that happened they might not even make the finals. Suspensions suck but if you're going to be a retard multiple times then they are there for a reason.

Lol! that's fine then but I don't know why you're trotting out an argument that might be justified against other people when that's not my point.

As for Draymond... let's for a second say I concede he should have been ejected (I don't). My point is that, that's the reason GSW lost. If Draymond was still there Lebron doesn't bring the trophy back to Ohio. That's my point. As far as I'm concerned calls went their way and they had good fortune. You want to make out the Dubs were lucky to win in 2015 and you totally ignore the same applies to the Cavs the next year. Makes no sense to me.

By the way, the Dubs not resting Curry after they had locked down no 1 spot was one of the dumbest things they ever did in retrospect. Had they been sensible we wouldn't be having this discussion in my view. But as Draymond said last night, if that had happened they wouldn't have KD now, so maybe it was a price worth paying

 

[DarthFed]

Lol! that's fine then but I don't know why you're trotting out an argument that might be justified against other people when that's not my point.

As for Draymond... let's for a second say I concede he should have been ejected (I don't). My point is that, that's the reason GSW lost. If Draymond was still there Lebron doesn't bring the trophy back to Ohio. That's my point. As far as I'm concerned calls went their way and they had good fortune. You want to make out the Dubs were lucky to win in 2015 and you totally ignore the same applies to the Cavs the next year. Makes no sense to me.

By the way, the Dubs not resting Curry after they had locked down no 1 spot was one of the dumbest things they ever did in retrospect. Had they been sensible we wouldn't be having this discussion in my view. But as Draymond said last night, if that had happened they wouldn't have KD now, so maybe it was a price worth paying

Buddy I'm actually agreeing with you on the injury front. It played a role in both 2015 and 2016, the Warriors benefited in 2015 and the Cavs in 2016.

Where we disagree is on the Draymond suspension being bad luck. The guy did something stupid and selfish that hurt his team. Suspensions happen in all sports and we are talking a guy who intentionally hit players in the groin at least 3 times that postseason...he deserved it after the 2nd time IMO.

And I totally agree with the last paragraph. The Warriors chased the all-time record very hard and basically were treating the last few weeks of the season as playoff games when they should've been resting up and getting ready to peak for the playoffs. I think that played a role into them not being at their best against OKC and Cleveland.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I'm not into comparing degrees of luck. Getting lucky is getting lucky and unfortunately injuries certainly played a part in both finals. Bogut was a pretty good player and it took away the rim protection.

I disagree. I think not every lucky break is equal. Chris Paul being injured is a way bigger deal than Iggy being injured for example. We can't act like both teams were equally unlucky. Houston was up 3-2 and CP3 was ballin.

 

[DarthFed]

I disagree. I think not every lucky break is equal. Chris Paul being injured is a way bigger deal than Iggy being injured for example. We can't act like both teams were equally unlucky. Houston was up 3-2 and CP3 was ballin.

I know and I'm not implying all injury absences are equal but bad luck is bad luck. To say the Warriors had massive luck in 2015 while the Cavs had only a little in 2016 or vice versa is a fool's errand. Can't really say for sure if the Cavs win in 2015 with their full team, same as 2016 Golden State.

Also, while CP3 is obviously a far greater player than Iggy it was the latter that got hurt first and maybe the Dubs win game 4 instead of blowing it. That's what ended up making that series a big-time fight. I'm also not at all convinced the Rockets would've won game 6 or game 7 with Paul in there but obviously that crippled their chances.

 

[Federberg]

I was thinking about the stat that I would most like to see..

( (Points scored + Points from assists) / number of games ) x ( Average Individual floor percentage )


what do you think? I think it would give a true measure of scoring and assisting power adjusted for efficiency. Or has something like this already been done?

 

[DarthFed]

Guys, I guess I spent a good 7 or 8 years without watching a NBA match. I use to follow it with some regularity prior to that. Then I watched the second half of game three. Maybe this was a point out of the curve, but... hell, the level seemed quite low for a final (apart from Durant). Even physically, really not impressed.

Actually I saw another half match during the regular season, I guess it was Detroit x Boston or something like that. It sucked really hard too...

So, honest question: do you guys feel like that too, or is it just memory making its tricks?

Your observation about the physicality is spot on and that's due to the NBA eliminating the handcheck rule around 2004. The refs will call it a foul nearly every time and that's reduced the physicality. The NBA also has cracked down on very hard fouls. It doesn't take all that much to get what's called a flagrant foul now and that's two shots plus the ball so it's a big deal. The Bad Boy Pistons from the late 80's would've gotten about 5 of those a game.

As for level of play I think it's quite high. It's become a 3-point shootout and many of the guys today have insane range. You literally have to pick up Curry and even Durant from within 35 feet and the 3 point line is 23'9 from the basket.

But you were also watching one of the worst teams to ever make the final in the Cavs against one of the best teams ever assembled. It was a mismatch.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Your observation about the physicality is spot on and that's due to the NBA eliminating the handcheck rule around 2004. The refs will call it a foul nearly every time and that's reduced the physicality. The NBA also has cracked down on very hard fouls. It doesn't take all that much to get what's called a flagrant foul now and that's two shots plus the ball so it's a big deal. The Bad Boy Pistons from the late 80's would've gotten about 5 of those a game.

As for level of play I think it's quite high. It's become a 3-point shootout and many of the guys today have insane range. You literally have to pick up Curry and even Durant from within 35 feet and the 3 point line is 23'9 from the basket.

But you were also watching one of the worst teams to ever make the final in the Cavs against one of the best teams ever assembled. It was a mismatch.

Speaking of handcheck , Lebron should’ve broke his hand on JR instead of the “whiteboard “ because the whiteboard may contain or have some useful information.

 

[DarthFed]

Speaking of handcheck , Lebron should’ve broke his hand on JR instead of the “whiteboard “ because the whiteboard may contain or have some useful information.

I'm still shocked by it. I think it's the lowest point of his career that he would do something that dumb.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Not finals related but coach Casey signed with the Pistons for 5 years. I am not surprised he was scooped up fast. Raps promoted the assistant coach Nurse to head coach position. I thought they were going to go a totally different direction and I am surprised by this but can also see the logic of having a familiar face.

 

[DarthFed]

Not finals related but coach Casey signed with the Pistons for 5 years. I am not surprised he was scooped up fast. Raps promoted the assistant coach Nurse to head coach position. I thought they were going to go a totally different direction and I am surprised by this but can also see the logic of having a familiar face.

I'm shocked by it. I don't see the logic in firing your coach for not being able to get past one guy and then hiring his assistant. But I'm not familiar with most assistants around the league so who knows. He is inheriting a good team and that always helps. Now the biggest thing about the Raptors offseason is whether or not a certain someone heads West.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I'm shocked by it. I don't see the logic in firing your coach for not being able to get past one guy and then hiring his assistant. But I'm not familiar with most assistants around the league so who knows. He is inheriting a good team and that always helps. Now the biggest thing about the Raptors offseason is whether or not a certain someone heads West.

He loves TO Maybe DeRozan goes somewhere else and I am sure he can work nicely with Lowry? With a solid bench?

I know what you mean . Why get the assistant...Well, this guy was a big factor in shaping the offense of the team that got them 59 wins. He actually made Jonas a 40% 3 point shooter. Who knows. I did not expect it myself.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I'm still shocked by it. I think it's the lowest point of his career that he would do something that dumb.

Just think although Lebron lost the finals for the 6th time. He will be a winner because every team but the Warriors are gonna line up to kiss the Kang fanny to get him to join their organization.. KS.. can you imagine what the Bulls pitch would be ? Anything less than an offer of player coach/ GM or VP isnt gonna be sufficient.

 

[Federberg]

Surely Boston won't go for Lebron. They've got such a great thing going. To me going for LJ would be pure short termism.

 

[DarthFed]

Surely Boston won't go for Lebron. They've got such a great thing going. To me going for LJ would be pure short termism.

I think it has to do with their competitiveness too. They want to finally beat him, they don't want to take the easy road. I don't necessarily agree with that thinking but I can respect it.

I don't think it'd be short-term thinking though as I think Bron is going to be a top 5 player for as long as he wants to play. I'm talking late 30's and beyond if he wants, it isn't mostly about athleticism with him. But that is assuming they wouldn't have to get rid of too many people to make it happen. Ainge is a hell of a GM and he wouldn't bow down to GM LeBron and his awful moves.

 

[DarthFed]

Just think although Lebron lost the finals for the 6th team. He will be a winner because every team but the Warriors are gonna line up to kiss the Kang fanny to get him to join their organization.. KS.. can you imagine what the Bulls pitch would be ? Anything less than an offer of player coach/ GM or VP isnt gonna be sufficient.

It is amazing that the guy is 3-6 in Finals but his team has been the heavy underdog in all but one that they lost and they were obviously underdogs in 2016. That Mavs choke may end up being the true killer for him. Assuming he goes to a good team he's probably winning more rings.