2018 NBA Finals: Warriors - Cavs (Part 4)

[brokenshoelace]

I'm sorry I don't agree that Harden is a better player than Anthony Davis. I can't... I won't agree..

And frankly when Kawhi is back he ain't better than him either

If Anthony Davis stays healthy, he's probably a better player than Harden although he has to prove it. Kawhi, IMO, is being slightly overrated (and I say slightly as he's obviously a top 10 player still) because of how good he is defensively. The term "best two-way player" is thrown around when talking about Kawhi, but it's such a dumb notion, because it essentially boils down to "he's the best defender out of the good offensive players." Ok, but if Kawhi is a 10/10 defender, and a 8/10 offensive player, and say, Durant is a 10/10 offensive player and an 8/10 defender, why is Kawhi a better two-way player? They amount to the same.

The truth is, obviously defense is a huge deal, there's no denying that, but the league is just offense oriented from an individual standpoint (not talking about team defense obviously, which is huge). You can always make up for individual defensive deficiencies through defensive schemes, switches, doubles, etc... Hell, even a mediocre defensive player can get better through effort or athleticism. But the ability to put the ball down the hole, run an offense, pass the ball well, etc...those are the most important skills in basketball, and Harden does them just so much better than Kawhi. I'd take Harden on my team before Kawhi in vacuum, because I'm guaranteed a floor general who will run the offense and give me buckets. Now, once a team is structured and other pieces are involved then it might be a different story.

It also bears mentioning that Kawhi is still a bit of an unknown in terms of just how good he is. Obviously he's elite, but he's only had 2 elite seasons (2016 and 2017). The 2014 finals MVP is misleading. He deserved it, obviously, but back then he was just a very good piece on a great team, rather than the franchise player.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Just look at the difference in results. Harden joined Houston the same year Davis was a rookie and Houston has just been way more relevant than NO every single year. I know Paul joined the Rockets this year but Harden did not have a strong team around him at all before this.

AD is awesome, definitely the best big man in the league but this league is so geared for wingmen now that someone like Harden is more valuable than Davis. Maybe that changes soon as Davis is a few years younger but if I'm taking a player right now heading into next year I'd take Harden. It actually comes down to usage in a roundabout way, Harden can control the game in more ways than AD. Russ and Harden are usage rate kings and Bron has had to be that way in the playoffs this year too. Part of what separates them is efficiency and note I'm only talking playoffs here: Bron >>>>Harden>>Westbrook

I agree Harden is a better player than Westbrook (slightly), but if you're talking playoffs, Russ has been a better performer throughout his career. I like that people want to pretend 2012-2016 didn't happen but they did. For example. what's Harden's defining playoff moment? A positive one I mean...I can't think of a single one.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I respect the fact you're willing to stick with your conviction. Personally I just couldn't. AD is a consistent scorer, defender, leader. He's just going to get better and better. I'm not sure what Harden we'll get after the WCF. He'll never get MVP again. Not after that... he couldn't have shrunk more if you'd put him in an ice cold bath

Harden will definitely win the MVP this season. It's based on the regular season so his playoff stinkers won't matter. Also, while I love AD, this year has only been the second time he's made the playoffs, and the first time he's actually won a playoff game. I don't know that he's a leader for example as I haven't seen much in that regard.

 

[DarthFed]

I agree Harden is a better player than Westbrook (slightly), but if you're talking playoffs, Russ has been a better performer throughout his career. I like that people want to pretend 2012-2016 didn't happen but they did. For example. what's Harden's defining playoff moment? A positive one I mean...I can't think of a single one.

Harden has taken his own teams a lot farther than Russ. Granted he's had his own team for awhile but we can revisit this if Westbrook can start taking his teams farther than a first round ass beating. Westbrook is more dynamic than Harden for sure but the latter is simply a more efficient scorer. What exactly happened for Westbrook in 2012-2016? He had Kevin Fricken Durant on the team, if anything it further proves the point.

 

[DarthFed]

If Anthony Davis stays healthy, he's probably a better player than Harden although he has to prove it. Kawhi, IMO, is being slightly overrated (and I say slightly as he's obviously a top 10 player still) because of how good he is defensively. The term "best two-way player" is thrown around when talking about Kawhi, but it's such a dumb notion, because it essentially boils down to "he's the best defender out of the good offensive players." Ok, but if Kawhi is a 10/10 defender, and a 8/10 offensive player, and say, Durant is a 10/10 offensive player and an 8/10 defender, why is Kawhi a better two-way player? They amount to the same.

The truth is, obviously defense is a huge deal, there's no denying that, but the league is just offense oriented from an individual standpoint (not talking about team defense obviously, which is huge). You can always make up for individual defensive deficiencies through defensive schemes, switches, doubles, etc... Hell, even a mediocre defensive player can get better through effort or athleticism. But the ability to put the ball down the hole, run an offense, pass the ball well, etc...those are the most important skills in basketball, and Harden does them just so much better than Kawhi. I'd take Harden on my team before Kawhi in vacuum, because I'm guaranteed a floor general who will run the offense and give me buckets. Now, once a team is structured and other pieces are involved then it might be a different story.

It also bears mentioning that Kawhi is still a bit of an unknown in terms of just how good he is. Obviously he's elite, but he's only had 2 elite seasons (2016 and 2017). The 2014 finals MVP is misleading. He deserved it, obviously, but back then he was just a very good piece on a great team, rather than the franchise player.

Kawhi at the time he went down was looking like a top 4 player in the league. The question is how much was due to being with Pops and the Spurs system. Similar to what we see with Boston right now, everyone on the Spurs seems to play better.

So let's see how Kawhi comes back and where he lands. I agree that it still is mostly about scoring and while I'd say Kawhi is definitely a better offensive player than KD is on defense I'd still take KD in a heartbeat. Same with Curry over Kawhi. Scoring is the name of the game.

 

[DarthFed]

I think AD is all around a better player than Harden but I'm looking at this from a value perspective and only currently (not factoring age). AD has no weaknesses in his game but inherently the best wing players are more valuable than the best big men. In this case the at best #4 wing player in the NBA is more valuable than the #1 big man. The fact it's even close shows how much of a beast AD is.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Harden has taken his own teams a lot farther than Russ. Granted he's had his own team for awhile but we can revisit this if Westbrook can start taking his teams farther than a first round ass beating. Westbrook is more dynamic than Harden for sure but the latter is simply a more efficient scorer. What exactly happened for Westbrook in 2012-2016? He had Kevin Fricken Durant on the team, if anything it further proves the point.

I tend to avoid discussing anything OKC related because it's a sour subject for me, and because non fans of the team who haven't followed them closely throughout the years except in the playoffs have a lot of misconception and stereotypes. I will say one thing though: it baffles me that people forget about 2013, when Russ got hurt, and Durant only managed to win one fucking game against the Memphis Grizzlies on his way to a second round exit. So yeah, obviously KD is the better player, but if Russ had KD, then KD had Russ, and he couldn't do shit without him in the playoffs. In fact, in 2014, when KD was gassed after his MVP season, Russ was OKC's best playoff performer that year, and completely spanked CP3 in that Clippers series.

People bring up OKC missing the playoffs in 2015 because KD got hurt, but also forget that Westbrook missed the first 20 games of the season too, and they'd have easily made it otherwise.

As far as Harden goes, he got bounced out by Portland in round 1 in 2014, was down 3-1 in the second round to the Clippers in 2015 AND down by 25 in the fourth quarter, before his team made the comeback with him ON THE BENCH... And the ONLY reason he made it to the conference finals is because every team was injured as hell, namely OKC (safe to say they would have faced the Warriors that year instead). In 2016, he got bounced out of the first round again. Last year, he was outplayed by Westbrook most of the series, except A) Harden was playing on a much better team, and B) Westbrook could literally not afford to sit on the bench without Houston making a huge run. I don't know if you remember that series or looked at the numbers with Westbrook on the floor compared to him off the floor. Then, in the second round, there's that Spurs embarrassment where Harden flat out stunk up the joint. This year, he had CP3...

Again, I think Harden is definitely the better, more efficient player, but I don't agree he's been better in the playoffs, at all. Although to be fair, OKC were embarrassing this year in general, and despite his game 5 heroics, some of that is on Russ.

 

[Federberg]

^Lol! You guys say all this stuff yet fight me when I tell you that you under-rate Curry's leadership skills and dog. The idea that KD would lead a team better than Steph makes absolutely no sense to me. Let me repeat, KD is more talented than Steph, but he's no alpha

 

[kskate2]

The Warriors defense on LeBron wasn't good but it doesn't really need to be as crazy as it sounds. The Warriors know that the only way the Cavs can make this competitive is if the others step up and that's where I thought they failed yesterday. It wasn't just the switching that BS mentioned, their rotations were also pretty slow and they got away with the Cavs missing a lot of open looks. Still looking at the game I feel "the others" did pretty well for their very low standards. And I wouldn't expect a repeat performance in Oracle. But there is no need for the Dubs to adjust to LeBron, they know him well enough as the only real threat to their team. When he's hitting outside shots it's simply impossible to defend him. Eagle can help but he's not slowing down LeBron.

The Dubs just frankly aren't playing anywhere near as well as the last few years on either end of the floor. KD is off and they don't have the same intensity on defense. What's tough for Bron is that even a decent team may have been enough for him to win this series. But he may have a bottom 3 roster in the league and that's being generous.

And you may not realize this FB but I'm probably the only LeBron fan on this thread. KS and AP definitely don't like him but there's no denying the guy is by far the best in the world and is top 5, probably top 3 all-time. I will put it like this, if you come across anyone that says "yeah he's good but I don't think he's top 10, or I don't think he's at Kobe's level" then just ignore them. I think you're searching REALLY hard to discredit this guy for some reason. What he's done in this playoffs is beyond ridiculous given his team. There is maybe 1 other player in history that could've dragged this team to the finals and we all know who that is

There are very specific reasons I'm not a fan of Lebron:
1. To be branded the greatest athlete in the league, he whines entirely too much
2. Early on he wasn't clutch in 4Q of games, though that stat has turned around in the last 5 years.
3. I don't like the way he team hops. It's like musical chairs. You're the best player in the league. Get your behind somewhere and stay. Let them build a team around you. And before you say he tried that @DarthFed , let me counter w/ one of your arguments. He's not a GM. Let them handle that.

 

[DarthFed]

There are very specific reasons I'm not a fan of Lebron:
1. To be branded the greatest athlete in the league, he whines entirely too much
2. Early on he wasn't clutch in 4Q of games, though that stat has turned around in the last 5 years.
3. I don't like the way he team hops. It's like musical chairs. You're the best player in the league. Get your behind somewhere and stay. Let them build a team around you. And before you say he tried that @DarthFed , let me counter w/ one of your arguments. He's not a GM. Let them handle that.

They all whine to the refs KS and in LeBron's case he has a lot of reasons too. He's so strong that the refs miss a lot of fouls on him. He is allowed to play "superstar hack the hell out of anyone" defense but he actually gets screwed on offense more times than not like Shaq used to.

As for #2 the guys been crazy clutch for a long time. It's just an old complaint that never died down. You don't win 6 straight game 7's , some of which with total bums, if you're not clutch.

#3, absolutely. I actually think you have to include Bron the GM and coach with Bron the player. His awful personnel moves have cost him as a player and there is no getting around that.

The other thing is that he sometimes can't hide how egotistical he is. Did you see that article about Game 1 yesterday when he said "how much more picking up my teammates am I supposed to do?"

 

[DarthFed]

^Lol! You guys say all this stuff yet fight me when I tell you that you under-rate Curry's leadership skills and dog. The idea that KD would lead a team better than Steph makes absolutely no sense to me. Let me repeat, KD is more talented than Steph, but he's no alpha

We are talking Harden and Westbrook though. KD is a special case because he hasn't really been allowed to lead by Westbrook and then he jumped to Steph's team. That's why I truly think it may hurt his legacy. Winning 2-3 rings on his own team means more than what he will finish with on GS.

 

[Federberg]

We are talking Harden and Westbrook though. KD is a special case because he hasn't really been allowed to lead by Westbrook and then he jumped to Steph's team. That's why I truly think it may hurt his legacy. Winning 2-3 rings on his own team means more than what he will finish with on GS.

but look at what you're saying. I think you implicitly agree with my point, but it's hard to take the final step and verbalise it

And I want to state again.. I absolutely love watching KD. He's like a Rolls Royce. Silky smooth

 

[brokenshoelace]

^Lol! You guys say all this stuff yet fight me when I tell you that you under-rate Curry's leadership skills and dog. The idea that KD would lead a team better than Steph makes absolutely no sense to me. Let me repeat, KD is more talented than Steph, but he's no alpha

I never fought you over that. I said Durant is a better player but Curry is more important for that team, and clearly the leader after Draymond. Hell, Durant said as much a few of months ago so what's there to fight about?

http://www.957thegame.com/articles/durant-says-he’s-‘not-leader-calls-steph-face-warriors

That's Durant's own words. I never disputed that.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Also the idea that KD "wasn't allowed to lead" is laughable. That was his team and his city and he can do whatever the hell he wants with zero criticism (it's always on Westbrook). Proof is game 6 vs. the Warriors is one of the all time worst performances by a superstar in a history-changing game (it legit changed everything), and people only casually bring it up. I get that playing with Westbrook isn't easy, but now Durant is a leader but Russ just didn't allow him?

 

[Federberg]

I never fought you over that. I said Durant is a better player but Curry is more important for that team, and clearly the leader after Draymond. Hell, Durant said as much a few of months ago so what's there to fight about?

http://www.957thegame.com/articles/durant-says-he’s-‘not-leader-calls-steph-face-warriors

That's Durant's own words. I never disputed that.

my point goes further though. Create a new team and Steph is still more alpha

 

[Federberg]

Also the idea that KD "wasn't allowed to lead" is laughable. That was his team and his city and he can do whatever the hell he wants with zero criticism (it's always on Westbrook). Proof is game 6 vs. the Warriors is one of the all time worst performances by a superstar in a history-changing game (it legit changed everything), and people only casually bring it up. I get that playing with Westbrook isn't easy, but now Durant is a leader but Russ just didn't allow him?

totally agreed. KD was balling, but to get tekked out? That's when leaders step up. No excuses

 

[DarthFed]

but look at what you're saying. I think you implicitly agree with my point, but it's hard to take the final step and verbalise it

And I want to state again.. I absolutely love watching KD. He's like a Rolls Royce. Silky smooth

No there is a difference. If Steph went to OKC and Westbrook left it would be Durant's team. Steph had established a great thing there already, the team was built around him and KD joined. They are close enough in greatness that I think it will always be Steph's team and he will certainly be more loved by GS fans than KD ever will.

In 2010 LeBron went to Wade's team. The difference is LeBron was simply the best player on the team by far. So even though the Heat fans probably still like Wade more it didn't take long to realize it was LeBron's show.

 

[DarthFed]

Also the idea that KD "wasn't allowed to lead" is laughable. That was his team and his city and he can do whatever the hell he wants with zero criticism (it's always on Westbrook). Proof is game 6 vs. the Warriors is one of the all time worst performances by a superstar in a history-changing game (it legit changed everything), and people only casually bring it up. I get that playing with Westbrook isn't easy, but now Durant is a leader but Russ just didn't allow him?

Bro, you know damn well that Westbrook considered himself Kd's equal at the very least. Durant is simply the far greater player and he should've always been the main option especially in the playoffs.

And I don't mean to single you out these past two days but I specifically remember you trying to tell me that KD was the best player in the league the last few years he was with the Thunder. Yes, even better than LeBron. I feel like your opinion of him as a player changed drastically after he left your favorite team.

 

[Federberg]

No there is a difference. If Steph went to OKC and Westbrook left it would be Durant's team. Steph had established a great thing there already, the team was built around him and KD joined. They are close enough in greatness that I think it will always be Steph's team and he will certainly be more loved by GS fans than KD ever will.

In 2010 LeBron went to Wade's team. The difference is LeBron was simply the best player on the team by far. So even though the Heat fans probably still like Wade more it didn't take long to realize it was LeBron's show.

No no you're misunderstanding me. One of the points you made justifying KD's superiority was that if you were creating a team from scratch you would do it around KD not Steph. My point is that Steph would be a better leader of any team you want to create. He would actually lead. KD just wants to play

 

[brokenshoelace]

Bro, you know damn well that Westbrook considered himself Kd's equal at the very least. Durant is simply the far greater player and he should've always been the main option especially in the playoffs.

And I don't mean to single you out these past two days but I specifically remember you trying to tell me that KD was the best player in the league the last few years he was with the Thunder. Yes, even better than LeBron. I feel like your opinion of him as a player changed drastically after he left your favorite team.

Oh dude, you're not on twitter, but I acknowledged two idiotic statements I've made: I said Durant was the best in the world in late 2014, and Curry was the best in 2016. So no, it wasn't out of some bias because he played for my team (otherwise why would I say Curry is the best?), I was just being dumb. In hindsight, it was ridiculous to doubt Lebron. I've come around.

And KD is the far superior player to Russ. That never changed.