2018 French Open Men's final: Nadal v Thiem

[Moxie]

Rafa winning Roland Garros has become so routine that the biggest takeaway was a harsh adjective used by a 109-year old former player about the runner-up's performance.

So you don't get the difference between PC and politesse, either?

 

[Moxie]

A few blurbs from the internet:

Wertheim on SI.com:

Tigers, saltwater crocodiles, whale sharks and electric eels may be the disgorged answer. But we know better. There is also a fifth species: Rafael Nadal on a court surfaced with clay.

When Nadal is set loose in his natural habitat, the rest of the tennis fauna is rendered prey. And there is no one above him on the food chain. For the duration of his pro tennis career—now, remarkably, 15 years—Nadal has won more than 90 percent of his matches played with granules of dirt underfoot.

In the Spanish press, Nadal said, of the cramp in his hand, he wouldn't have quit, and would have played the rest of the match right-handed, if he'd had to.

 

[brokenshoelace]

So you don't get the difference between PC and politesse, either?

No more than you get a joke

 

[Moxie]

No more than you get a joke

I saw you were trying to make a joke, but my question was serious. Anyway, funny from you, as the guy with the most thudding sense of humor on these boards. You are so self-serious, and then when you occasionally attempt a joke, you can't figure out why anyone didn't know you were kidding. You couldn't even get Federberg's joke today about Rafa's birthday. It's too bad you can't address an interesting point. I thought you had a more inquisitive mind than that. At least Darth was engaging. And you did participate in this line of conversation.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Rosewall said he wished more sets were played. I think that is quite reasonable (as it is not so much personal). But, then he followed it up by saying DT put up a disappointing show (note, I am just saying from memory and so these may not be the exact wordings).

I have two issues here. First of all, even assuming that he had actually put up a disappointing show, there is no need to say he sucks so explicitly and in front of both himself and a large crowd (especially, given that in that case everybody would already be aware that he put up a disappointing show).

I actually think Thiem fought as well as he could have fought today (except for two issues. #1 is that the initial jitter caused him to lose a game and #2 he had a few botched volleys coming from poor technique). Rafa was not exactly playing great in the previous matches. Starting from Bolleli to JMDP almost everybody had chances to break him often. But, Rafa knew that Thiem is strong and a good clay player. So, Rafa brought his full concentration and power and showed no mercy. Thiem hung in with him on equal footing in many points and actually hit more winners than Rafa (although this almost always happens to Rafa). Thiem quickly regrouped from 0-2 to 2-2 and then played quite decent until the last game. Thiem needed to win the first set to have even an iota of a chance of winning the match and he knew it and all of us know it. So, it is actually quite natural that he got dejected and Rafa sensed and pounced on that opportunity to get an early break and the second set became history. However, in the third set, after going down 0-40, Thiem valiantly fought and avoided the break in the opening game. Finally, in the end he saved about four or five match points. This is not like Dinara Safina or Sabine Lisiki sucking up the joint in a final match totally disappointing the crowd. This is more of an alpha male establishing his superiority over Thiem and not about Thiem sucking. I am not even a fan of Thiem. So, KR's remark is doubly problematic from my point of view at least.

I am sure Thiem will win a couple of RG titles, assuming he does not become too old by the time Rafa eases his stranglehold on the dirt.

 

[kskate2]

Congrats to Nadal on RG title #11

 

[brokenshoelace]

I saw you were trying to make a joke, but my question was serious. Anyway, funny from you, as the guy with the most thudding sense of humor on these boards. You are so self-serious, and then when you occasionally attempt a joke, you can't figure out why anyone didn't know you were kidding. You couldn't even get Federberg's joke today about Rafa's birthday. It's too bad you can't address an interesting point. I thought you had a more inquisitive mind than that. At least Darth was engaging. And you did participate in this line of conversation.

Please don't lecture people about being too serious when a simple joke about the old mods all being one person sent you into a quasi-meltdown. And you're the same person who responds to every single Darth post in which he calls Nadal names and ask him why he does it...Lighten up.

I engaged in the conversation. I said Rosewall's comments were insensitive but ultimately not that big a deal. Correct? Scroll up and read it. The PC stuff was between you and Darth. Last I checked I'm under no obligation to participate. In fact, my "it's not that big a deal" thing is the reason why. I just think too much is being made out of a throwaway comment. That's it. That's my stance on the subject. It has nothing to do with having an inquisitive mind. If a simple comment, which may or may not have been insensitive to one person, has evolved into a full-blown conversation about the definition of political correctness then I'm perfectly happy and comfortable to be left out of the debate, while choosing instead to think of legitimate talking points regarding an unbelievable achievement that is winning the French Open eleven fucking times. Thank you. (for what it's worth you're right about the definition of PC).

PS: Even if you failed to get my joke, I have no idea how my comment about Rafa's win being so routine that you're discussing the definition of PC due to a comment by Rosewall implies I don't know the difference between PC and politeness. That's as non-sequitur as they come.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Rosewall said he wished more sets were played. I think that is quite reasonable (as it is not so much personal). But, then he followed it up by saying DT put up a disappointing show (note, I am just saying from memory and so these may not be the exact wordings).

I have two issues here. First of all, even assuming that he had actually put up a disappointing show, there is no need to say he sucks so explicitly and in front of both himself and a large crowd (especially, given that in that case everybody would already be aware that he put up a disappointing show).

I actually think Thiem fought as well as he could have fought today (except for two issues. #1 is that the initial jitter caused him to lose a game and #2 he had a few botched volleys coming from poor technique). Rafa was not exactly playing great in the previous matches. Starting from Bolleli to JMDP almost everybody had chances to break him often. But, Rafa knew that Thiem is strong and a good clay player. So, Rafa brought his full concentration and power and showed no mercy. Thiem hung in with him on equal footing in many points and actually hit more winners than Rafa (although this almost always happens to Rafa). Thiem quickly regrouped from 0-2 to 2-2 and then played quite decent until the last game. Thiem needed to win the first set to have even an iota of a chance of winning the match and he knew it and all of us know it. So, it is actually quite natural that he got dejected and Rafa sensed and pounced on that opportunity to get an early break and the second set became history. However, in the third set, after going down 0-40, Thiem valiantly fought and avoided the break in the opening game. Finally, in the end he saved about four or five match points. This is not like Dinara Safina or Sabine Lisiki sucking up the joint in a final match totally disappointing the crowd. This is more of an alpha male establishing his superiority over Thiem and not about Thiem sucking. I am not even a fan of Thiem. So, KR's remark is doubly problematic from my point of view at least.

I am sure Thiem will win a couple of RG titles, assuming he does not become too old by the time Rafa eases his stranglehold on the dirt.

I'm not sure about Thiem winning a couple of RG titles (I still think his lack of an overwhelming "unplayable gear" might always leave him vulnerable), but this is a great post, and I agree in full.

Rosewall's comments are another reason why I think players from the past are just way too out of touch with the game, and at times struggle to pick up on seemingly obvious issues, both tactical and mental. I think your assessment of the match is spot on, and again, aside from a terrible game which cost him the first set (and ultimately the match), I think Thiem should get a pass, given all of the obvious. I don't even think this was Nadal's A-game from a shot-making perspective, but in terms of how he controlled proceedings, dealt with each individual juncture of the match (trying to hang in there early and knowing when to strike and get the break, then stepping it up a bit and keep his foot on the gas, before finally, and crucially, becoming more aggressive and ending points early after his weird arm injury thing to just put the match to bed), Nadal didn't allow Thiem much, and that's not even touching on the match-up and tactical issues. So it's very easy for a former player to think Thiem was disappointing, but it's ultimately no different to many former players suggesting all sorts of insane drastic strategies/simplistic solutions/crazy mental approaches which are supposed to be the antidote to Nadal at the FO, and yet here he is with #11, 11-0 in the finals, and perhaps most amazingly, never even going to a fifth set in the final.

 

[Federberg]

It just hit me that Rafa has won as many RG's as Borg won slams. Un-fucking-believable

 

[isabelle]

Mr Vavrinec'll have a lot of problems to win Wimbly I'm afraid

 

[brokenshoelace]

Mr Vavrinec'll have a lot of problems to win Wimbly I'm afraid

Unfortunately, Rafa is unlikely be one of them

 

[imjimmy]

On a unrelated note, I was surprised by the attention that was focused on Rosewall's comment on Theim at the expense of spending more time extolling Rafa's achievements . And not just on this forum. I guess that's the way our mind works - latches on to anything seemingly controversial - basically amplifying negativity instead of reinforcing positivity . Again this is not directed to the discussion here, but elsewhere online there's so much discourse on that one remark by Rosewall.

What Nadal achieved here is truly remarkable and perhaps the single greatest achievement in all my years of watching tennis. Seemingly it pushed him to the limit and he was overwhelmed with pressure. I guess we could see that in his injury scare towards the end and the tears afterward. Living up to all the expectations took a lot out of him, and I think he knows that every title from now could potentially be the last.

Finally, he still remains very grounded and I like his (almost stoical) thought process:
____________

The Spaniard’s dominance to rule Roland-Garros once again inched Nadal to just three Majors behind perennial rival Roger Federer’s current haul of 20 Grand Slams, but that is far from his mind… for now.

“Let me enjoy this title,” quipped the world No.1 “I can't be always thinking of more. Of course, I have ambition. I have passion for what I am doing.

But you can't be frustrated always if somebody have more money than you, if somebody have a bigger house than you, if somebody have more Grand Slams than you.

You can't live with that feeling. You have to do your way.

______________

 

[the AntiPusher]

Wow! I guess their prices will be going up by a lot 'cause that can't have been cheap to lure Roger over.

This is really huge for Nadal because Roger isnt going to be allowed to take his RF brand because its own by NIKE. Rafa needs to step up and spend more time in the US advertising market. ESPN, Good morning America and etc..his English is really good now and I know he has the charisma to charm the American market as well as he has in EMEA. (Europe, the Middle East and Africa).

 

[brokenshoelace]

I don't think Nadal gives a single shit about the status of Roger's partnership with Nike at this point in his career.

 

[monfed]

wonder when this will end

 

[Jelenafan]

It just hit me that Rafa has won as many RG's as Borg won slams. Un-fucking-believable

If he wins it next year he will have equaled Djokovic’s total Major tally.

 

[Moxie]

It just hit me that Rafa has won as many RG's as Borg won slams. Un-fucking-believable

It's also interesting because there has been a lot of tracking of Nadal's career with Borg's. Both prodigies, though Borg started winning younger. Both with the four-in-a-row at RG, then a loss. Nadal the first to equal Borg's "Channel Slam" after 30 years. But there were also a lot who thought that Nadal, like Borg, would have a short career. Good for him for proving everyone wrong.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

A few blurbs from the internet:
In the Spanish press, Nadal said, of the cramp in his hand, he wouldn't have quit, and would have played the rest of the match right-handed, if he'd had to.

Thanks Moxie for that interesting and important piece. Me as well as numerous others were saying since the beginning that King's greatest enemy to his unprecedented title is a possibility of injury because we know he'll do his best in such final & there is no player who can match it, period.
We did not realize how close the injury scare was this time. I can only imagine with both fear and awe, how the rest of the match would look like if he was forced to play with the right: 5 ruthless sets very likely. I think the lesson is if he wants to rule in RG for few more years he must let off his passion a bit and learn from his older foe and friend Fed how to better manage his playing and recuperation time, that his aging body is calling for. Skip unimportant tourneys like e.g. Davis Cup, Barcelona, Rome next year would be the simplest suggestion.

 

[Moxie]

Thanks Moxie for that interesting and important piece. Me as well as numerous others were saying since the beginning that King's greatest enemy to his unprecedented title is a possibility of injury because we know he'll do his best in such final & there is no player who can match it, period.
We did not realize how close the injury scare was this time. I can only imagine with both fear and awe, how the rest of the match would look like if he was forced to play with the right: 5 ruthless sets very likely. I think the lesson is if he wants to rule in RG for few more years he must let off his passion a bit and learn from his older foe and friend Fed how to better manage his playing and recuperation time, that his aging body is calling for. Skip unimportant tourneys like e.g. Davis Cup, Barcelona, Rome next year would be the simplest suggestion.

I think the cramping was a minor moment. And had a lot to do with the humid day, since he sweats copiously. I don't think that's an aging issue. But he will have to start to manage his clay schedule better. And maybe leave off some Davis Cup. On clay, I think he should skip Barcelona and Madrid. MC and Rome are better prep for RG.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

No way Rafa skips MonteCarlo, Barcelona, Rome and RG until he retires. He may skip Madrid as he does not really like that tourney very much.