2017 Wimbledon Final: Federer v Cilic

[DarthFed]

Of all people, Darth...

What do you mean?

 

[DarthFed]

if you live outside US, maybe you would have a different perspective about MJ.....

Probably, as most outside the US probably barely saw him play and/or simply don't care about basketball. I know the great football players often get discussed in this like Pele and Maradona and of course that's fine but I simply can't comment on players I never saw in a sport I'm not familiar with.

 

[mrzz]

14 vs. 18

If you haven´t followed Wimbledon, check on youtube. You will have a hell of day!

 

[Ricardo]

Probably, as most outside the US probably barely saw him play and/or simply don't care about basketball. I know the great football players often get discussed in this like Pele and Maradona and of course that's fine but I simply can't comment on players I never saw in a sport I'm not familiar with.

no most basketball fans outside US follow NBA as well so have seen MJ play a lot, but are less affected by media hype which is very strong in US. after living in US for a while i know for a fact how they REALLY like to hype it up and bandwagon it all......when something/someone is hot.

 

[britbox]

If you haven´t followed Wimbledon, check on youtube. You will have a hell of day!

I thought he was talking about Woods/Nicklaus - his numbers are right.

 

[Obsi]

No athlete had an impact remotely close to Ali. If that's the criteria, then Ali will always be the greatest. But in terms of mastering your own sport

I think the criteria should include both factors. IMO, impact on the world is very important to measure greatness of an athlete. I'd say Ali is clearly greater athlete than Federer if take into account both factors.

 

[britbox]

I think the criteria should include both factors. IMO, impact on the world is very important to measure greatness of an athlete. I'd say Ali is clearly greater athlete than Federer if take into account both factors.

That's more like saying he was a great person who happened to be an athlete, rather than just basing it on athletic achievement. I see two different definitions and different criteria.

 

[DarthFed]

no most basketball fans outside US follow NBA as well so have seen MJ play a lot, but are less affected by media hype which is very strong in US. after living in US for a while i know for a fact how they REALLY like to hype it up and bandwagon it all......when something/someone is hot.

This is very true but the media machine 20 years ago was not the same as now. Also as far as US sports go basketball is a distant 2nd in popularity to the NFL and is more comparable to baseball. And you don't see anyone in football get compared to MJ as far as greatness, same with baseball aside from Babe Ruth and he played back when baseball ruled the sporting world in the US so he is also someone who has a certain mystique added to him. There are plenty of non-Americans who consider Jordan to be one of if not the greatest athlete they've seen, including some on this board.

 

[mrzz]

I thought he was talking about Woods/Nicklaus - his numbers are right.

Now I read it carefully and understood what he was saying. I actually don´t follow golf so I had no business even getting into the conversation. As the numbers are close I was pretty sure he forgot to add one to Federer´s account.

 

[DarthFed]

Oh no my man @mrzz I have not forgotten this past glorious Sunday. I remember it as well as Carol does I'm sure

 

[GameSetAndMath]

As a Brit I'm tempted to add Phil 'the power!' Taylor

If we are talking about athleticism Golf and Dart don't even belong in the discussion. The hardest thing that you do in Golf is walking between strokes and in dart, it is lifting your beer mug. :lulz2:

 

[Moxie]

Probably, as most outside the US probably barely saw him play and/or simply don't care about basketball. I know the great football players often get discussed in this like Pele and Maradona and of course that's fine but I simply can't comment on players I never saw in a sport I'm not familiar with.

Actually, as you know, basketball has become really popular outside of the US, and I'd argue with you a bit that NFL is hugely more popular than NBA in the US. Especially when you add college football and basketball. I'd like to say this about Michael Jordan: my father was a huge sports fan, though not especially basketball, and also a great fan of ballet, rather for some of the same reasons that he loved sports. Very early in Jordan's career, he told me that I should drop everything if I ever had a chance to watch Jordan play. Because it wasn't about basketball. He said it was like ballet, and one of the most beautiful things he'd ever seen. This was way before the myth of Jordan. The man could fly. And hang in the air. And he was an awesome competitor. I have no opinion on the greatest athlete of all time. #searchingforneverland. But I don't think that Jordan was over-rated, just because he was over-marketed. In basketball, I don't think anyone can touch him.

 

[DarthFed]

Actually, as you know, basketball has become really popular outside of the US, and I'd argue with you a bit that NFL is hugely more popular than NBA in the US. Especially when you add college football and basketball. I'd like to say this about Michael Jordan: my father was a huge sports fan, though not especially basketball, and also a great fan of ballet, rather for some of the same reasons that he loved sports. Very early in Jordan's career, he told me that I should drop everything if I ever had a chance to watch Jordan play. Because it wasn't about basketball. He said it was like ballet, and one of the most beautiful things he'd ever seen. This was way before the myth of Jordan. The man could fly. And hang in the air. And he was an awesome competitor. I have no opinion on the greatest athlete of all time. #searchingforneverland. But I don't think that Jordan was over-rated, just because he was over-marketed. In basketball, I don't think anyone can touch him.

Yes I should've been more clear. Basketball is very popular worldwide but that doesn't mean all or even most are following the NBA closely on a daily basis. NBA games are on probably around Midnight - 3 AM in most of Europe, about 7 -11 AM in much of Asia and early afternoon in Australia. It's some serious hardcore fans there if they are watching a lot of NBA, at least when it's live. I suppose there may be games that get broadcasted internationally at better times after they finish (does anyone know?)

The NFL is way more popular than the NBA in the States and I'd say that was still the case even when Jordan was playing though it was certainly closer back then. And if we add in college (which we shouldn't) the gap is much much bigger. No one cares about crappy college bball until March Madness.

 

[atttomole]

If we are talking about athleticism Golf and Dart don't even belong in the discussion. The hardest thing that you do in Golf is walking between strokes and in dart, it is lifting your beer mug. :lulz2:

Golf is much harder than it looks. Golfers have to workout thoroughly to be fit. Remember they have to be on their feet for about six to seven hours at a time, and they have to maintain their concentration during the whole time. In addition, if you can hit the ball harder and more accurately, you can reach the hole with fewer shots below par, and not all golfers can do that. If you over-hit the ball, you risk going further away from the hole, and being way over par. Tiger and Phil can hit the ball harder and more accurately than most. Besides the physical challenges, golf is mentally draining because a single round of golf is full of ups and downs, with the lead changing hands so many times. I have seen golfers having meltdowns in which they surrendered huge leads. And then you have a situation where one has to make a very difficult putt to win the championship. Time and again, Tiger made unbelievable putts when the chips were down, to the astonishment of his peers.

In my opinion Tiger is a top athlete not so much for the titles he won, but for the way he dominated the sport. Its disappointing that he seems to have destroyed his career with his irresponsible behavior. I think he can still equal and surpass Jack Nicklaus if he can get his act together. He also has been hounded by injuries.

 

[britbox]

2. Most agree that you cannot compare, or at least it is very difficult to compare, persons from team sports with persons from individual sports.
I would like to go one more step further here. Something like running (Bolt) or swimming (Phelps) while individual events, are difficult to consider as sports. To me in order for something to be called a sport there has to be an active opponent to you. If you can perform your act without any interference from an opponent, it is not so much of a sport. Actually, in view of this I would even say Golf is not a sport.

Can't agree with this at all. If Bolt and Phelps were just racing a stopwatch then I might give it some credence, but they aren't. All the sports you mentioned have interference - mentally and tactically.

Same with tour cycling, some people think you just peddle as fast as you can and you win. In reality this is nonsense, there are a huge amount of tactics involved, knowing when to attack, when not to attack, covering attacks etc...

Even Darts funnily enough, has a lot of interference from the opponent.

 

[britbox]

I don't think Woods will overtake Nicklaus, but what he did in a period of time was pretty amazing. I'd be surprised if he wins another now, but at his peak he was the best golfer ever seen.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Actually, as you know, basketball has become really popular outside of the US, and I'd argue with you a bit that NFL is hugely more popular than NBA in the US. Especially when you add college football and basketball. I'd like to say this about Michael Jordan: my father was a huge sports fan, though not especially basketball, and also a great fan of ballet, rather for some of the same reasons that he loved sports. Very early in Jordan's career, he told me that I should drop everything if I ever had a chance to watch Jordan play. Because it wasn't about basketball. He said it was like ballet, and one of the most beautiful things he'd ever seen. This was way before the myth of Jordan. The man could fly. And hang in the air. And he was an awesome competitor. I have no opinion on the greatest athlete of all time. #searchingforneverland. But I don't think that Jordan was over-rated, just because he was over-marketed. In basketball, I don't think anyone can touch him.

Jordan is as far from overrated as it gets. A bit over-romanticized, but he's the best basketball player who ever lived, and probably the most "untouchable" athlete in history.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Jordan is as far from overrated as it gets. A bit over-romanticized, but he's the best basketball player who ever lived, and probably the most "untouchable" athlete in history.

Jordan , if anything, may slightly be underrated because people compare him to guys like Bron, who is playing at an era where you STARE at your opponent a bit too hard, a foul is called ! Jordan played at an era where you drove to the basket, the defense handed you your kidney and the ref called it IF he felt the kidney was viable. It is the reverse "weak era" situation

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Can't agree with this at all. If Bolt and Phelps were just racing a stopwatch then I might give it some credence, but they aren't. All the sports you mentioned have interference - mentally and tactically.

Same with tour cycling, some people think you just peddle as fast as you can and you win. In reality this is nonsense, there are a huge amount of tactics involved, knowing when to attack, when not to attack, covering attacks etc...

Even Darts funnily enough, has a lot of interference from the opponent.

Yes, there is some interference in running and cycling. But, in swimming there is zero interference as each swimmer must swim within the allocated lane all the time. They are essentially racing against the clock.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Jordan , if anything, may slightly be underrated because people compare him to guys like Bron, who is playing at an era where you STARE at your opponent a bit too hard, a foul is called ! Jordan played at an era where you drove to the basket, the defense handed you your kidney and the ref called it IF he felt the kidney was viable. It is the reverse "weak era" situation

Agreed that the rules and style of play were much more difficult in Jordan's era, but the era Lebron is playing in is far from weak. He doesn't compare to Jordan in terms of resume, or winning mentality, but he's the second best basketball player of all time so I can see why some compare.