2015 ATP World Tour Finals

[tented]

I see your Novak point as different. It is dumb to curse nature for not going your way of course (and maybe a bit annoying) ...

I think Kieran's alluding to when Novak kept asking the umpire to have the court watered during the fifth set of the 2013 RG semis. He was clearly looking to have the court slowed down, and complained when Pascal Maria wouldn't allow it.

 

[shawnbm]

I heard Roger was complaining that the French is biased against him--a Swiss--in keeping its championship on the clay rather than hard court during his prime years. Rumor is that he thought it was because they feared the annoying clang of the Swiss cowbell reverberating throughout Paris to the chagrin of Rafa and his minions.

 

[Kieran]

I heard Roger was complaining that the French is biased against him--a Swiss--in keeping its championship on the clay rather than hard court during his prime years. Rumor is that he thought it was because they feared the annoying clang of the Swiss cowbell reverberating throughout Paris to the chagrin of Rafa and his minions.

:laydownlaughing :lolz:

 

[Fiero425]

I know, I only pointed at Novak to show how predictable and easy it is to be partisan. It would have been more interesting if the mob mentality hadn't displayed, and instead people looked at tennis tradition as it actually is. That is, evolving and changeable. The WTF is an example of that...

ATP Chp. records off Wiki: - - **possible addition by year's end

Most titles: [9]

1. Federer, 6 ('03, '04, '06, '07, '10, '11)
2. Lendl, 5 ('81, '82, 1985, '86, '87)
2. Sampras, 5 ('91, '94, '96, '97, '99)
4. Djokovic, 4 ('08, '12,'13, '14) - 5('15)?**
4. Năstase, 4 ('71, '72, '73, '75)

Most cons. titles: (tied)

1. Djokovic, 3 ('12–'14) - 4('15)?**
1. Lendl, 3 ('85–'87)
1. Năstase, 3 ('71–'73)

Most finals:

1. Federer, 9 ('03–'07, '10–'12, '14)
1. Lendl, 9 ('80–'88)
3. Becker, 8 ('85–'86, '88–'89, '92, '94–'96)
4. Sampras, 6 ('91, '93–'94, '96–'97, '99)

Most cons. finals:

1. Lendl, 9 ('80–'88)
2. Federer, 5 ('03–'07)
2. Năstase, 5 ('71–'75)
4. Djokovic, 3 ('12–'14) - 4('15)?**
5. Becker, 3 ('94–'96)
5. Federer, 3 ('10–'12)
5. Smith, 3 ('70–'72)

Most Appearances:

1. Agassi, 13 ('88–'91, '94, '96, '98–'03, '05)
1. Federer, 13 ('02–'14)
3. Lendl, 12 ('80–'91)
4. Becker, 11 ('85–'92, '94–'96)
4. Connors, 11 ('72–'73, '77–'84, '87)
4. Sampras, 11 ('90–'00)

Edited down to add to my blog! Thought I'd have this info close by after the inevitable win of NOLE! I see him owning all these records before all is said and done! ;-)

 

[Kieran]

^^ Well, an interesting one but I didn't know that three in a row is the record. That's one that's within reach...

 

[Kirijax]

If the WTF had been played in one place since 1970, then maybe Nadal wouldn't gripe about it so much. Maybe he thinks the WTF is like the Olympics or Davis Cup, where the site gets to choose which court it is played on. But like the WTA Finals, the WTF has pretty become the Indoor Slam (so to speak). It is what it is. since there is the option of changing the court, Nadal is going to say what he thinks about it always being played on that cursed indoor hard. But it's it's looking more and more likely that the WTF is going to be the hole in his resume, like the French is for Sampras. But the French is a much bigger hole so at least Nadal has that going for him.

 

[Kieran]

If the WTF had been played in one place since 1970, then maybe Nadal wouldn't gripe about it so much. Maybe he thinks the WTF is like the Olympics or Davis Cup, where the site gets to choose which court it is played on. But like the WTA Finals, the WTF has pretty become the Indoor Slam (so to speak). It is what it is. since there is the option of changing the court, Nadal is going to say what he thinks about it always being played on that cursed indoor hard. But it's it's looking more and more likely that the WTF is going to be the hole in his resume, like the French is for Sampras. But the French is a much bigger hole so at least Nadal has that going for him.

Except....it hasn't always been indoor.

Like I say, I disagree with Rafa, and my reason is simply that there aren't enough indoor or grass tournaments. They've added a week to grass, but indoor is poorly represented at the moment, imo, and we need more of them, not less.

But the WTF is a gun for hire. It goes to the highest bidder, and it isn't impossible to imagine a rich southern hemisphere nation rolling up in a tank filled with dosh and claiming it in the future...and the court is made of desert sand. Or air-conditioned outdoor clay.

Or...indoor clay.

Things change, and the WTF is one event that changes even its name...

 

[Kirijax]

If the WTF had been played in one place since 1970, then maybe Nadal wouldn't gripe about it so much. Maybe he thinks the WTF is like the Olympics or Davis Cup, where the site gets to choose which court it is played on. But like the WTA Finals, the WTF has pretty become the Indoor Slam (so to speak). It is what it is. since there is the option of changing the court, Nadal is going to say what he thinks about it always being played on that cursed indoor hard. But it's it's looking more and more likely that the WTF is going to be the hole in his resume, like the French is for Sampras. But the French is a much bigger hole so at least Nadal has that going for him.

Except....it hasn't always been indoor.

Like I say, I disagree with Rafa, and my reason is simply that there aren't enough indoor or grass tournaments. They've added a week to grass, but indoor is poorly represented at the moment, imo, and we need more of them, not less.

But the WTF is a gun for hire. It goes to the highest bidder, and it isn't impossible to imagine a rich southern hemisphere nation rolling up in a tank filled with dosh and claiming it in the future...and the court is made of desert sand. Or air-conditioned outdoor clay.

Or...indoor clay.

Things change, and the WTF is one event that changes even its name...

True, it hasn't been, but the USO wasn't always a hard court either, but you don't hear anyone complaining about it not going back to clay or grass. The 90s-00s have seen the major tournaments hem and haw around trying to find their own identity and for the most part it seems to have settled in nicely with a very good balance. There will always be the tournaments that move to grass or cough cough blue clay, but the WTF has pretty much found its identity and become bigger in stature because of that I think. They should embrace the idea that it is the Indoor slam and run with it, despite what the dirt ballers or grass sniffers say.

 

[tented]

^ Since there are only eight players, I wouldn't consider it a slam, or even slam-like. It has its own importance, but that word doesn't factor into it, IMO.

 

[Kieran]

True, it hasn't been, but the USO wasn't always a hard court either, but you don't hear anyone complaining about it not going back to clay or grass. The 90s-00s have seen the major tournaments hem and haw around trying to find their own identity and for the most part it seems to have settled in nicely with a very good balance. There will always be the tournaments that move to grass or cough cough blue clay, but the WTF has pretty much found its identity and become bigger in stature because of that I think. They should embrace the idea that it is the Indoor slam and run with it, despite what the dirt ballers or grass sniffers say.

Well, Bjorn Borg might have liked a few more years of the US Open on clay. But the USO is an example actually of how things change, not how they stay the same.

The WTF hasn't "found its identity", unless its identity is to embrace diverse locations, different names, and changes of surface. Here's the venues. Actually, some carpet, some outdoor hards, indoor hards, grass. The variety is working for it, even though it's a narrow variety...

 

[Riotbeard]

^ Since there are only eight players, I wouldn't consider it a slam, or even slam-like. It has its own importance, but that word doesn't factor into it, IMO.

True, but I think Kirijax overall point is a good one. Would it feel the same, if it became the second biggest Clay title or the third biggest Outdoor hardcourt title. It has more identity as indoor tournament for sure. It also makes it closer to being a unique achievement. If it were moved to clay and Rafa won it, would have the same effect as other people's wins there?

 

[nehmeth]

The WTF hasn't "found its identity", unless its identity is to embrace diverse locations, different names, and changes of surface. Here's the venues. Actually, some carpet, some outdoor hards, indoor hards, grass. The variety is working for it, even though it's a narrow variety...

42 years indoors either on carpet or hards... one year on grass and two years on outdoor hard courts. I would say its heritage as an indoor event is pretty solid.

 

[Kieran]

The WTF hasn't "found its identity", unless its identity is to embrace diverse locations, different names, and changes of surface. Here's the venues. Actually, some carpet, some outdoor hards, indoor hards, grass. The variety is working for it, even though it's a narrow variety...

42 years indoors either on carpet or hards... one year on grass and two years on outdoor hard courts. I would say its heritage as an indoor event is pretty solid.

Three or four surfaces. Clay can be played indoor too. That would be five.

Like I say, I don't want it to change, but I think the reaction just because Rafa said it was poor. Fact is, it isn't impossible to see this tourney sold off to a sheik in much the same way the Chinese bought it, and played on whatever surface they insist on. Rafa's suggestion was self-serving, but come on buddy, the reaction was just the usual, only with more "likes" and smileys... :nono

 

[Kirijax]

True, it hasn't been, but the USO wasn't always a hard court either, but you don't hear anyone complaining about it not going back to clay or grass. The 90s-00s have seen the major tournaments hem and haw around trying to find their own identity and for the most part it seems to have settled in nicely with a very good balance. There will always be the tournaments that move to grass or cough cough blue clay, but the WTF has pretty much found its identity and become bigger in stature because of that I think. They should embrace the idea that it is the Indoor slam and run with it, despite what the dirt ballers or grass sniffers say.

Well, Bjorn Borg might have liked a few more years of the US Open on clay. But the USO is an example actually of how things change, not how they stay the same.

The WTF hasn't "found its identity", unless its identity is to embrace diverse locations, different names, and changes of surface. Here's the venues. Actually, some carpet, some outdoor hards, indoor hards, grass. The variety is working for it, even though it's a narrow variety...

I think it has, or it's getting there. And I like to consider it the fifth Slam myself. There is something amazing in having the top eight guys duke it out over a week repeatedly for a title. You earn your spot there over a course of a year, it's a great honor to be there, it's often the place where the Year-End No. 1 is decided, there are more points at stake than anything else besides the slams, the way it has positioned itself as the finish line of the season and players almost over schedule themselves in the October tournaments if they see they have a chance to qualify. I would say the WTF has definitely found its identity and is closer to being a fifth Slam than any other tournament.

 

[Kieran]

Its uniqueness lies in having only the top 8, and played as a round robin. A slam's uniqueness is different. I agree, it's a great event, but it isn't one of the historical contenders for putative fifth slam...

 

[Fiero425]

The WTF hasn't "found its identity", unless its identity is to embrace diverse locations, different names, and changes of surface. Here's the venues. Actually, some carpet, some outdoor hards, indoor hards, grass. The variety is working for it, even though it's a narrow variety...

42 years indoors either on carpet or hards... one year on grass and two years on outdoor hard courts. I would say its heritage as an indoor event is pretty solid.

To me it only made sense because the event has always been in the winter; Nov-Jan.! Weather is HELLISH everywhere in the world around then! They don't want interruptions and I thoroughly endorsed it being indoors! I never considered it a 5th Slam since only 8 players were invited; 12 a few times back when it was single elimination! I've always considered either IW or Miami Masters as the 5th Major, but it lost that distinction when players like Roger and Nadal would only play 1 of them to save themselves of late! Nole's killing it early in the season anyway and has proved he owns the 1st half of the season! Back to back Masters is tough on the other old guys I guess! lol! They should have been around when both events were best of 5 set finals! :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kieran]

To me it only made sense because the event has always been in the winter; Nov-Jan.! Weather is HELLISH everywhere in the world around then! They don't want interruptions and I thoroughly endorsed it being indoors! I never considered it a 5th Slam since only 8 players were invited; 12 a few times back when it was single elimination! I've always considered either IW or Miami Masters as the 5 Major, but it lost that distinction when players like Roger and Nadal would only play 1 of them to save themselves of late! Nole's killing it early in the season anyway and has proved he owns the 1st half of the season! Back to back Masters is tough on the other old guys I guess! lol! They should have been around when both events were best of 5 set finals! :angel: :dodgy:

Back when you and I were younger, Rome was considered the fifth slam. Then, in the 90's, "the Liptons..."

 

[Fiero425]

To me it only made sense because the event has always been in the winter; Nov-Jan.! Weather is HELLISH everywhere in the world around then! They don't want interruptions and I thoroughly endorsed it being indoors! I never considered it a 5th Slam since only 8 players were invited; 12 a few times back when it was single elimination! I've always considered either IW or Miami Masters as the 5 Major, but it lost that distinction when players like Roger and Nadal would only play 1 of them to save themselves of late! Nole's killing it early in the season anyway and has proved he owns the 1st half of the season! Back to back Masters is tough on the other old guys I guess! lol! They should have been around when both events were best of 5 set finals! :angel: :dodgy:

Back when you and I were younger, Rome was considered the fifth slam. Then, in the 90's, "the Liptons..."

Rome was an old respectable event, but many people skipped it! The Lipton was the 1st event people considered a 5th major when created back in '85! Everyone played it except Connors and McEnroe who objected to equal prize money of all things! Martina was able to win 3 of the 5 events since they had MXD's! She accomplished it twice; the 2nd time at '87 USO! :clap :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kieran]

To me it only made sense because the event has always been in the winter; Nov-Jan.! Weather is HELLISH everywhere in the world around then! They don't want interruptions and I thoroughly endorsed it being indoors! I never considered it a 5th Slam since only 8 players were invited; 12 a few times back when it was single elimination! I've always considered either IW or Miami Masters as the 5 Major, but it lost that distinction when players like Roger and Nadal would only play 1 of them to save themselves of late! Nole's killing it early in the season anyway and has proved he owns the 1st half of the season! Back to back Masters is tough on the other old guys I guess! lol! They should have been around when both events were best of 5 set finals! :angel: :dodgy:

Back when you and I were younger, Rome was considered the fifth slam. Then, in the 90's, "the Liptons..."

Rome was an old respectable event, but many people skipped it! The Lipton was the 1st event people considered a 5th major when created back in '85! Everyone played it except Connors and McEnroe who objected to equal prize money of all things! Martina was able to win 3 of the 5 events since they had MXD's! She accomplished it twice; the 2nd time at '87 USO! :clap :angel: :dodgy:

McEnroe and Connors were correct...

Rome was the first one I remember being called the fifth major, but now if they were to contemplate a fifth one, they'd head to South America or Asia, and go for broke...

 

[Kirijax]

Back when you and I were younger, Rome was considered the fifth slam. Then, in the 90's, "the Liptons..."

Rome was an old respectable event, but many people skipped it! The Lipton was the 1st event people considered a 5th major when created back in '85! Everyone played it except Connors and McEnroe who objected to equal prize money of all things! Martina was able to win 3 of the 5 events since they had MXD's! She accomplished it twice; the 2nd time at '87 USO! :clap :angel: :dodgy:

McEnroe and Connors were correct...

Rome was the first one I remember being called the fifth major, but now if they were to contemplate a fifth one, they'd head to South America or Asia, and go for broke...

South America would be cool. Anything but China and all that empty money...I mean seats.