2014 Miami Final: Nadal vs. Djokovic

Who wins?


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Fiero425

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Moxie629 said:
Fiero425 said:
Nole's still the only player to beat Nadal 4 or more times in a row; at least twice now! We'll see what the future holds! :clap :angel:

Actually, I think this recent run is 3 matches, (see H2H here,) and I hope Rafa reverses the trend before it gets to 4.
;)

You're right! Was thinking of 2011 for some reason with IW! Going back to last season you have Beijing, WTF and this year's Master's event Miami! What makes it more noteworthy is that each match was decided in straight sets! No matter how poorly Nole playes, he takes at least a set off of Rafa! The 4 tourney winning streak must be Masters events overall; 2 last season and the first 2 this year!
 

Moxie

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^:) "Noteworthy" to some, concerning to others…:snigger. Broken had a good overview of their rivalry. I do think that when Novak plays in The Zone like he did on Sunday, esp. slow-hards, Rafa can't get him…can only just make it closer than he did, with better play. And Nadal getting Djokovic in straights is not likely to happen, except on clay, and with a less than stellar Nole. But I also agree with him that they're likely to continue to trade fortunes. I'm hoping it begins in MC. Anyway, as Front says, the clay season holds intrigue this year, and Rafa has his work cut out for him for the next two months. :velo:
 

Front242

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^ That Nadal already working on his cardio there? :D Good start!
 

Moxie

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^ I was mostly thinking of trying to keep ahead on clay. He's likely fishing in Mallorca, but we don't have an emoticon for fishing.
 

Moxie

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1972Murat said:
Moxie629 said:
^ I was mostly thinking of trying to keep ahead on clay. He's likely fishing in Mallorca, but we don't have an emoticon for fishing.

There is one actually...:celeb:...or at least most my buddies do this when they are fishing...;)

:laydownlaughing What is it they say? "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll sit in a boat drinking beer."
 

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
Clay season this year is gonna be more interesting than ever imo! And I know we say that every year :D Nadal keen to defend everything in sight as usual and Djokovic trying to make up lost ground for a few early exits last year, especially the 2nd round loss to Dimitrov at Madrid.

This gave me a smile because that was my first reaction when I read your first sentence. We said that in 2011 (which to date has been the most interesting one, as Nadal looked in real jeopardy. Thanks, Roger!), and we said that in 2012 and 2013, but those ended up being more or less routine.

That said, I agree. There will come a time when Nadal will falter at the FO. And honestly, it might be this year. I only say this as a gut feeling and no facts to back it, but I see a scenario in which Nadal loses at the FO then goes back and win the following year again.

To me, just when that loss is going to occur is a question of Nadal's movement and intensity, and a question of Djokovic's form. 3/5 makes this an incredibly tough ask for anyone, as we saw last year in the semi against Novak. It also virtually eliminates anyone else's chances against Nadal. More than the clay season itself, I'm interested in seeing how Nadal looks at Roland Garros. He goes through patches where he gets in his groove the second week and looks as close to unbeatable as it gets (we saw it last year and in 2012). I'm interested in seeing whether that happens again because something tells me we might see a little less intensity from Rafa by the time Roland Garros arrives. Again, just a gut feeling.
 

Moxie

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^ I'm not going to credit your "gut" anymore than I give credence to GSM's notion: that, since Rafa won 4, then lost one, won 4 again, therefore he'll lose this year, based on pattern. However, I will say that we've all been wondering for a quite a while how long Rafa can keep up this high-wire act on clay, particularly at Roland Garros. (I mean that seriously, as a fan who can bluster with the best of them.) I don't really think anyone gets points for predicting it'll be this year, or for predicting it won't. Rafa is off the charts now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Nadal will lose at RG again someday, unless he pulls off the near-impossible, and keeps winning there, then retires. But he's already pulled off what seemed heretofore impossible at the French, so…who knows?
 

brokenshoelace

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Moxie629 said:
^ I'm not going to credit your "gut" anymore than I give credence to GSM's notion: that, since Rafa won 4, then lost one, won 4 again, therefore he'll lose this year, based on pattern. However, I will say that we've all been wondering for a quite a while how long Rafa can keep up this high-wire act on clay, particularly at Roland Garros. (I mean that seriously, as a fan who can bluster with the best of them.) I don't really think anyone gets points for predicting it'll be this year, or for predicting it won't. Rafa is off the charts now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Nadal will lose at RG again someday, unless he pulls off the near-impossible, and keeps winning there, then retires. But he's already pulled off what seemed heretofore impossible at the French, so…who knows?

I'll expand: My "gut" is not based on some potential odd statistical coincidence. Instead, I think Nadal had a phenomenal year last season in which he reached almost every final, and I believe come the FO, he might be lacking a bit in terms of intensity as a result, especially given that he will, at the absolute worst, go very deep in all of the clay tournaments leading up to it.

We've seen it before with Novak after 2011, Roger after 2012, and Nadal himself after 2010, where the emotional, mental, and physical toll of having an outrageously good year catches up to you. Granted, I think even a slightly less intense Rafa could still sleepwalk into the FO final, which is why I said he won't be losing before the final in another thread, but seeing the level required for him to beat Djokovic (even on clay, Rafa still has to play very well), a loss in intensity might ultimately prove to be a difference-maker.

Remember 2011? That was kind of what happened during that clay court season. And even in his 2011 FO win, Nadal looked pretty average by his impossible standards.

Now, let me be clear: I always am so vocally against making predictions about slam winners months in advance, before we actually see how they're playing in the weeks leading up to the slam and most importantly, at the slam itself. So this is in NO WAY a prediction. It's more of an initial observation. Come June, Rafa may be looking like his normal King of Clay self and I'll be the first to predict he'll be biting the trophy...unless he runs into clay killers Isner, Fogini and Cilic, of course ;)

PS: To be even clearer, as it stands, Nadal is still the clear favorite at the FO until proven otherwise, and it's up for Novak to prove otherwise.
 

brokenshoelace

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Moxie629 said:
^ I'm not going to credit your "gut" anymore than I give credence to GSM's notion: that, since Rafa won 4, then lost one, won 4 again, therefore he'll lose this year, based on pattern. However, I will say that we've all been wondering for a quite a while how long Rafa can keep up this high-wire act on clay, particularly at Roland Garros. (I mean that seriously, as a fan who can bluster with the best of them.) I don't really think anyone gets points for predicting it'll be this year, or for predicting it won't. Rafa is off the charts now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Nadal will lose at RG again someday, unless he pulls off the near-impossible, and keeps winning there, then retires. But he's already pulled off what seemed heretofore impossible at the French, so…who knows?

By the way, my "gut" did not say Nadal will lose THIS year. I said I think he will lose one year (duh, of course he will) and come back to win it the next.
 

Kieran

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This is it. There comes a point when a player is no longer the man he was. Now, peeps will say, duh, Rafa took Nole down in four on hards at Flushing Meadows. But the first thing that can go is the intensity. Who would have thought Mac would win no more after 1984? Or Mats, after 1988? Players lose interest, or they just fizzle out. Sometimes, no matter how hard they're trying, the intensity isn't there. There can be a lot of reasons for it, but only one cure: renewed commitment.

I think Rafa has built his house on clay through being better than everyone, and reinforcing that with the most wilful and intense desire to engage battle everywhere on clay - and win. But there'll come a time when he no longer has that...
 

Front242

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Talking of loss of intensity...that applies to Novak more than anyone else the last 2 years imo although he really seemed to have got it back in the Miami final. Whether he continues in this vein is anyone's guess though.
 

Kieran

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Front242 said:
Talking of loss of intensity...that applies to Novak more than anyone else the last 2 years imo although he really seemed to have got it back in the Miami final. Whether he continues in this vein is anyone's guess though.

That's it. Nole in 2012 wasn't the same as the previous year. And last year he was similar to 2012. It's taken him a while - and maybe the real-time threat of being totally eclipsed by Rafa again - to reassert himself in a focused way, like 2011. But this isn't 2011, and it might be unfair of us fans to hold that up to him all the time. But at the moment, he's getting that same strength of purpose about everything he does, the sureness and bravery. And Rafa has found it hard to come out against everybody with the same intensity of purpose he had twelve months ago.

Swings and roundabouts with these fellers - I just hope Rafa doesn't fall completely off the swing, if ya catch me drift...
 

Front242

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Well personally I wouldn't say he was anywhere near totally eclipsed by Rafa since 2011 and if he even had a slight bit more of that intensity that he lost, he'd have won more matches against him since then. Dunno what's been up with him really. It seemed like that mad intense US Open 2011 final drained every last ounce of his energy. Never saw him play like that since, besides set 4 obviously.
 

Kieran

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The challenge presented by Nole in 2011 (& Oz 2012) made Rafa a better player. He responded.

The challenge presented by Rafa since Oz 2012 has forced Nole to improve, again. He responded.

Taking everything else they face - and have achieved so far - into consideration, we may have another season or two of this, before somebody else barges in...
 

Front242

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Hopefully. About time someone other than the usual suspects wins a slam. You have Wawrinka and Del Potro as the odd men out of the one time big four winning a slam in the last 5 years and that's it.
 

Kieran

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The "field" are just that, something to tramp through on the way home...
 

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
Talking of loss of intensity...that applies to Novak more than anyone else the last 2 years imo although he really seemed to have got it back in the Miami final. Whether he continues in this vein is anyone's guess though.

Yes, Novak post-2011 was one of the examples I gave in my above post.
 

brokenshoelace

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Kieran said:
The "field" are just that, something to tramp through on the way home...

Well yeah, otherwise the "field" would be called "Grand Slam champions." And yet, it's always been called the field.
 

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
Hopefully. About time someone other than the usual suspects wins a slam. You have Wawrinka and Del Potro as the odd men out of the one time big four winning a slam in the last 5 years and that's it.

We JUST saw a new slam champion 3 months ago. Don't be greedy.