2014 Miami Final: Nadal vs. Djokovic

[Fiero425]

I am curious to know what the board thinks as to who will have the better H2H when it is all said and done between these two great players, and why.

It's only wishful thinking, but I'd put Nole ahead "after all is said and done!" I think he's more fit and won't break down as soon as Rafa who works entirely too hard with any player out there! I see similarities with this rivalry that were evident with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova! They're almost the same age, one more dominant to begin with; esp. on clay! A turning point occurs and a big run is achieved by the younger, less experienced player! Evert had a huge lead; like 20-8 before Martina had a run of 14 matches in a row go in her favor! She was often toying with Chris; even on clay! If not for so many clay Masters events, I think he would have surpassed Rafa already, but since there are so many, it'll take a little while longer; but not much! Nole's won the last 3 matches in dominating fashion! We can only hope he can keep it going this spring on European clay! I'd be more than happy enough for him if he complete his career with at least 1 French Open and 1 Cinn. Master!

I agree that there's a good chance that Nole will lead the H2H when it's all done between them. Djokovic is a dangerous opponent for Nadal, who yes, has more mileage on him, (matches, not simply hard playing. Novak works pretty hard out there, too.) Rafa is entering the late middle-age of his career, with more years of dominating, or all-but, while Novak is still in peak years. I think he has time to catch up and pass in the personal H2H.

I don't agree with your statement, though, that there are "so many" clay MS, and that's why Nole hasn't caught Rafa there already. Three Masters are played on clay, while six are played on the HCs.

Yeah I think the proportion of hard to clay masters certainly favors Novak for their head 2 head!

Now, but not when Nadal was so dominant and owned the other players on the tour on clay several years ago!

 

[Moxie]

I am curious to know what the board thinks as to who will have the better H2H when it is all said and done between these two great players, and why.

It's only wishful thinking, but I'd put Nole ahead "after all is said and done!" I think he's more fit and won't break down as soon as Rafa who works entirely too hard with any player out there! I see similarities with this rivalry that were evident with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova! They're almost the same age, one more dominant to begin with; esp. on clay! A turning point occurs and a big run is achieved by the younger, less experienced player! Evert had a huge lead; like 20-8 before Martina had a run of 14 matches in a row go in her favor! She was often toying with Chris; even on clay! If not for so many clay Masters events, I think he would have surpassed Rafa already, but since there are so many, it'll take a little while longer; but not much! Nole's won the last 3 matches in dominating fashion! We can only hope he can keep it going this spring on European clay! I'd be more than happy enough for him if he complete his career with at least 1 French Open and 1 Cinn. Master!

I agree that there's a good chance that Nole will lead the H2H when it's all done between them. Djokovic is a dangerous opponent for Nadal, who yes, has more mileage on him, (matches, not simply hard playing. Novak works pretty hard out there, too.) Rafa is entering the late middle-age of his career, with more years of dominating, or all-but, while Novak is still in peak years. I think he has time to catch up and pass in the personal H2H.

I don't agree with your statement, though, that there are "so many" clay MS, and that's why Nole hasn't caught Rafa there already. Three Masters are played on clay, while six are played on the HCs.

Yeah I think the proportion of hard to clay masters certainly favors Novak for their head 2 head!

Now, but not when Nadal was so dominant and owned the other players on the tour on clay several years ago!

TsarMatt…Riotbeard is on your side. And he makes a good point on my point, that the 3:1 proportion of HC:clay favors the H2H to Djokovic, over time. Not sure where you're going with your point, but "(Rafa) "owned the other players on the tour on clay several years ago,"….several years ago? So long ago the Nadal dominance on clay ended?

 

[brokenshoelace]

I am curious to know what the board thinks as to who will have the better H2H when it is all said and done between these two great players, and why.

Djokovic. Most of their matches will be on hards, where he has a clear edge. He'll have more longevity too, so he'll be winning most of their later matches. Add to that the fact that Nadal has to play REALLY well to beat Djokovic on hard courts, and he can't be expected to bring that level every time. Whereas, if both play average or just "fine," Novak will win. The key for Nadal though, is to keep winning most of their clay matches and sneak in the occasional match on hards, the way he's been able to for the past few years, to keep breathing room between them. However, with time, I feel that won't be as possible as it is now.

But then again, who knows? If Djokovic has a let down season where his level drops, Nadal could rack up a few wins in a row and make the H2H more resounding. It happened in the past. In fact, that's kinda been how their rivalry has fluctuated (ie one guy builds up consecutive wins in a row against the other).

 

[brokenshoelace]

The "field" are just that, something to tramp through on the way home...

Well yeah, otherwise the "field" would be called "Grand Slam champions." And yet, it's always been called the field.

But the field was more competent it seemed "way back when" and at least made major finals, taking Masters, and upsetting the top players "sometimes!"

This literally applies, word per word, today's field. Tsonga, Soderling, Roddick, Del Potro, Berdych, Ferrer and Wawrinka have all made major finals since the emergence of "the top 4." Two of them won slams. MANY players have had upsets over the top players, but those conveniently get ignored. Since 2008, Djokovic has lost to: Safin, Roddick, Kohlschreiber, Haas, Tsonga, Melzer and Wawrinka in majors. Off the top of my head, Murray has lost to plenty non top 4 players. Nadal has lost to Tsonga, Soderling, Del Potro, Ferrer, Rosol, Darcis and Wawrinka. Federer has lost to Del Potro, Soderling, Berdych (twice), Tsonga (twice), Stakhovsky and Robredo.

Hmm, sounds like plenty of upsets to me. So, what more do people want? For these guys to not only cause upsets, reach the occasional final, but to actually beat all the top 4 players in most majors? Then they wouldn't be called "the field." The best players are the best players for a reason, and these guys are who they are for a reason. The nonsense about "allowing" them to win is shocking, especially when I hear it from people who understand tennis.

The most hilarious part about it is when these upsets do occur, the same people lamenting how the field doesn't "step up" completely discredit these wins, justify them in a way to reinforce how superior the top 4 players are, and they were the ones who had a bad day at the office. And yet, when the top 4 players win, it's because the field is gutless and allows them to.

Uh, which one is it?

 

[brokenshoelace]

I am curious to know what the board thinks as to who will have the better H2H when it is all said and done between these two great players, and why.

It's only wishful thinking, but I'd put Nole ahead "after all is said and done!" I think he's more fit and won't break down as soon as Rafa who works entirely too hard with any player out there! I see similarities with this rivalry that were evident with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova! They're almost the same age, one more dominant to begin with; esp. on clay! A turning point occurs and a big run is achieved by the younger, less experienced player! Evert had a huge lead; like 20-8 before Martina had a run of 14 matches in a row go in her favor! She was often toying with Chris; even on clay! If not for so many clay Masters events, I think he would have surpassed Rafa already, but since there are so many, it'll take a little while longer; but not much! Nole's won the last 3 matches in dominating fashion! We can only hope he can keep it going this spring on European clay! I'd be more than happy enough for him if he complete his career with at least 1 French Open and 1 Cinn. Master!

I agree that there's a good chance that Nole will lead the H2H when it's all done between them. Djokovic is a dangerous opponent for Nadal, who yes, has more mileage on him, (matches, not simply hard playing. Novak works pretty hard out there, too.) Rafa is entering the late middle-age of his career, with more years of dominating, or all-but, while Novak is still in peak years. I think he has time to catch up and pass in the personal H2H.

I don't agree with your statement, though, that there are "so many" clay MS, and that's why Nole hasn't caught Rafa there already. Three Masters are played on clay, while six are played on the HCs.

The most dominant players after Borg weren't really that adept at taking Rome and Monte Carlo but once or twice over their careers while Rafa has inflated his record with those titles! Sampras, McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, and even Andre lost on those courts time and time again; if they went at all! They couldn't pad their numbers and stats with multiple clay court titles the way Rafa has over the years! Even Borg didn't have 8 MC or Rome titles; just 2 I believe! They weren't as important then as they are today; most top players skipping them! I can't remember Connors ever going to those events! Not like he'd win!

Ok, first of all, use commas or full stops instead of exclamation points! Makes it easier on the eyes

Secondly, what on earth do you mean by "padding" his record? Is clay an inferior surface for some reason? Most of the masters titles take place on hards. Why don't you say that Sampras, Djokovic or Federer have "padded" their records with Masters on hards? God knows they have more chances to, since most of the masters take place on that surface.

"Padding" implies you're getting more credit than you deserve due to winning in a situation in which others are at a handicap. I guess this is technically true for Nadal on clay, except everyone's handicap is that they're not as good as he is on the dirt, which is what competition is about.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I am curious to know what the board thinks as to who will have the better H2H when it is all said and done between these two great players, and why.

It's only wishful thinking, but I'd put Nole ahead "after all is said and done!" I think he's more fit and won't break down as soon as Rafa who works entirely too hard with any player out there! I see similarities with this rivalry that were evident with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova! They're almost the same age, one more dominant to begin with; esp. on clay! A turning point occurs and a big run is achieved by the younger, less experienced player! Evert had a huge lead; like 20-8 before Martina had a run of 14 matches in a row go in her favor! She was often toying with Chris; even on clay! If not for so many clay Masters events, I think he would have surpassed Rafa already, but since there are so many, it'll take a little while longer; but not much! Nole's won the last 3 matches in dominating fashion! We can only hope he can keep it going this spring on European clay! I'd be more than happy enough for him if he complete his career with at least 1 French Open and 1 Cinn. Master!

I agree that there's a good chance that Nole will lead the H2H when it's all done between them. Djokovic is a dangerous opponent for Nadal, who yes, has more mileage on him, (matches, not simply hard playing. Novak works pretty hard out there, too.) Rafa is entering the late middle-age of his career, with more years of dominating, or all-but, while Novak is still in peak years. I think he has time to catch up and pass in the personal H2H.

I don't agree with your statement, though, that there are "so many" clay MS, and that's why Nole hasn't caught Rafa there already. Three Masters are played on clay, while six are played on the HCs.

Yeah I think the proportion of hard to clay masters certainly favors Novak for their head 2 head!

Now, but not when Nadal was so dominant and owned the other players on the tour on clay several years ago!

"Several years ago" meaning as recently as the last clay season? Because not much has changed in that regard.

Also, the ratio of hards masters to clay masters has always been in favor of hards. No idea what you're talking about there.

 

[Kieran]

Whatever about the field, they're not winning anything. But they're nice and chummy about it, well-fed too. I never saw this in tennis before the last ten years. Maybe we can blame the homogenisation thingy, and say it makes it easier for the top players to roll through the chump change.

As for Rafa on clay, people have been holding that against him for centuries, as if he isn't a modern tennis marvel, but a surface-protected freak instead. Fact is, he has great records against Fed and Djoker on non-clay slams. 2-2 on hards with Nole, and 3-0 against Federer. He's buffed up his resume against them off-clay much more than they have against him on clay.

And there being so many more MS titles available off clay has made his ability to greedily gobble the lot even more impressive. As for him being dominant on clay "several years ago", the only year where he wasn't the best clay player was 2009, because Fed won an MS and GS title that year. Otherwise, he's been the most successful every season, and usually absolutely dominant, too..

 

[Kieran]

I am curious to know what the board thinks as to who will have the better H2H when it is all said and done between these two great players, and why.

It's difficult to say. It'll depend on several things. With this rivalry, it's been based upon relative hunger and the ability to adapt to any changes in the opponents line of attack, and deflect it next time. And when the one nods off, the other starts feeding. Nole has won the last three, but Rafa took six out of seven before this. On hards, although there are more HC MS events, only last summer, Rafa dispatched Nole in Canada and then in the HC slam final in NY. So, when he plays like that, Rafa can take him.

But against this, Nole has won 3 of the last 7 on clay, but only one of the previous five. To a large extent, he reset the button with Nole, even on clay, to reassert himself after the trial of 2011.

Now Nole has replied to Rafa's HC dominance of last summer with three resounding victories, which were based as much as anything on renewed vigour, and a conscious attempt to counter Rafa's successful strategy.

It's hard to guess, going forward. There comes a point when appetite is sated and the mojo has fled - then the other chap makes hay. Happened in the rivalry between Lendl and Mac. Or it could be that they go hammer and tongs for another three seasons, in which case the answer to your question is the answer to everything else as well:

Rafa!

 

[pavlik89]

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EK5xRXniQA[/video]

 

[Front242]

^ Strange clip. After watching that you'd think Nadal won the match

 

[Fiero425]

^ Strange clip. After watching that you'd think Nadal won the match

It reminds me of basketball, football, or baseball highlights where they're showing the best and biggest plays of the losing team ending segment inconsequentially on the winner! :lolz: :snigger :laydownlaughing :angel:

 

[Moxie]

As for Rafa on clay, people have been holding that against him for centuries, as if he isn't a modern tennis marvel, but a surface-protected freak instead. Fact is, he has great records against Fed and Djoker on non-clay slams. 2-2 on hards with Nole, and 3-0 against Federer. He's buffed up his resume against them off-clay much more than they have against him on clay.

And there being so many more MS titles available off clay has made his ability to greedily gobble the lot even more impressive. As for him being dominant on clay "several years ago", the only year where he wasn't the best clay player was 2009, because Fed won an MS and GS title that year. Otherwise, he's been the most successful every season, and usually absolutely dominant, too..

I quote this partly because I liked that sentence I bolded, Kieran. Since we're going into the European clay season, it's worth saying (again) that I don't understand why some folks seem to act like being the best on clay is somehow unfair. Or as Broken responded to Fiero above, as to the notion of Rafa "padding" his resume with clay wins. No one has ever once complained about Roger "padding" his Slam count on grass, for instance, when grass-court tennis is rarer than hens' teeth anymore, even compared to clay. If any surface should be discounted, it's the lawn, since there are so few tournaments, and how tricky the surface is to adapt to. (And don't jump on me: I love Wimbledon and grass court tennis. I'm just drawing a parallel.)

 

[pavlik89]

[video=dailymotion]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1loeqc_2014-miami-final-rafael-nadal-vs-novak-djokovic-highlight-hd_sport[/video]