2014 Miami Final: Nadal vs. Djokovic

Who wins?


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Fiero425

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Djokovics net play is better than folk think its just his overhead volleys that look clumsy, Rafa needs to get with the programme..we are defo moving away from endless baseline play, if he thinks he can carry on like the old days, then other players have/will move on, Djokovic has realised this so lets see what happens >>>.

more net play is the way ahead..who wants 40 stroke rallies moving into the late 20s ?, not Djokovic, Murray has soft hands so more attacking play is good for him, and Federer cannot rally like the old days now anyway.

Nothing bores me more than 30-40 stroke rallies again and again with Nole, Rafa, & Andy! In the old days you were lucky to have 3 or 4 points like that; now it's routine and a downer! Loved Miami; not just because Nole won, but because it had more to do than just wearing down the opponent! Nadal was played off the court, Nole attacking his forehand of all things! He was very successful at it all match long with that added sweetener of great volleys! :clap :angel: :cool:
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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^^yes it is good for fans to see the occasional feathery volley etc, whats not to like ?.
 

Denis

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The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.
 

Fiero425

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Denisovich said:
The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.

...and hope CLAY court season changes the tide! :clap :snigger :cool: :angel:
 

nehmeth

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Denisovich said:
The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.

What Kieran has said, this match-up has its ebbs and flows. Last year at the Rodgers Cup, I was watching Rafa practicing. The way he was hitting the ball, I knew Novak would be toast. And... he was. Rafa wasn't hitting anywhere close to that level Sunday. If he had, the way Novak was playing (I think) he still would have won, but it would have been three close sets instead of a blowout.

Rafa will be motivated to get on top of things in Monte Carlo, we'll see what happens there. Obviously Novak somehow remembered what worked in 2011 and employed it almost flawlessly in Miami. It's a strategy that translates well across surfaces - as we saw in Madrid and Rome that year. It would be nice to see him do that again.
 

brokenshoelace

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Denisovich said:
The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.

I'm glad you made this post because it highlights a thinking that I believe is a bit faulty. I don't know how to explain this properly but I'll try:

Let me start off by saying, the above post is right, strictly speaking. If Djokovic plays like this on hards, there is not much Nadal can do, or anyone else for that matter.

However, it ignores how small the margins are in tennis at the highest level, and implies a sense of helplessness on the behalf of the loser that isn't necessarily there. Nadal doesn't have to "hope" Novak's level drops because Novak's level WILL drop. I said as much in 2011 and people got on my case. Every now and then, you get a match where everything clicks. Hell, sometimes, players go through a much longer spell than a match. Novak virtually had 6 months like that in 2011, where every performance against a top player was a clinic. All the top players look unbeatable at their very best. Nadal looked pretty damn dominant himself last summer, and beat Novak on hards twice in the process. But, on the long run, not even the best players in the world can keep up this level.

Now, let me be clear about something: Djokovic DOES NOT need to play this well to beat Nadal on hards. He's played worse before and beat him in routine fashion. However, and here is what I wanted to touch on, as out of options as Nadal looked on Sunday (and he did look pretty damn out of options), the slightest drop in Novak's level the next time they play (and while I'm not saying he can't recreate that performance, it's not far-fetched to assume he might be a touch less sharp), and Nadal will all of a sudden seem like he has options.

That's how small the margins are in tennis. A little less depth on a Djokovic backhand cross court means Nadal all of a sudden has a chance to change directions and fire the ball up the line with the forehand. That shot alone can change the dynamic of the match-up, as it has in the past. Except, it's hard to execute that shot when your opponent is hitting obscenely good cross court backhands. Conversely, Novak cannot be expected to hit his backhand quite as well all the time. They've played 40 times already. There's a reason Djokovic hasn't won all 40, or even 20 of their meetings.

Take their Montreal match last year. Novak of course, did not play anywhere near as well as he did last Sunday. But, with the exception of an admittedly poor first set, he played at a pretty damn good level, and the result was one their most entertaining matches. The level of tennis in that third set was ridiculous. Nadal was hitting his cross court backhand so well, as well as his down the line forehand, and ultimately, that won him the match. Yet, had Novak been hitting his backhand as well as he did in Miami, the outcome would have been in reverse. But, that goes back to the point I just made: He can't be expected to always play like that.

But again to be clear, as well as Nadal played in Montreal, he still won 7-6 in the third. Which is as close as it can get. So clearly, Novak has an edge on hards, and a significant one in my mind.

Where Novak needs to be perfect though, is clay. They've played a bazillion times on clay, and the only 3 times Novak was able to win, he was virtually perfect. Anything less (like his FO performance) will just not cut it. Speaking of which, and just to highlight how close the margins are, take their Monte Carlo match last year: Novak was unplayable in the first set and took Nadal to task. Yet, a slight drop in his level in the second, and Nadal was back in it, despite not playing all that much better himself, and even then he was twice up a break and blew it, including once serving for the set.

Let me point out that I'm not calling you out per se, as your post isn't technically wrong, but I'm pointing out that it's easy to get carried away sometimes, and ignoring the bigger picture. I'm on the record saying Novak will beat Nadal more often than not, and have said that 3 years ago. I believe that today more than ever. But let's keep in mind that things like surfaces, form, confidence, momentum and other intangibles matter a great deal (Nadal's US Open final with Novak is a great example. He was just in better form, had all the momentum/confidence in the world, and was just playing better. He came in as the favorite against Novak on hards -- quite a rarity. And the result surprised no one). These things make a whole lot of difference. Hence Novak going from beating Nadal 6 times in a row to losing 6 out of 7 to beat him 3 times in a row again. It's easy to say "see! At his best, he'll never lose to Nadal." Or "if only he played like that at the US Open!" Except it's not that simple.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.

I'm glad you made this post because it highlights a thinking that I believe is a bit faulty. I don't know how to explain this properly but I'll try:

Let me start off by saying, the above post is right, strictly speaking. If Djokovic plays like this on hards, there is not much Nadal can do, or anyone else for that matter.

However, it ignores how small the margins are in tennis at the highest level, and implies a sense of helplessness on the behalf of the loser that isn't necessarily there. Nadal doesn't have to "hope" Novak's level drops because Novak's level WILL drop. I said as much in 2011 and people got on my case. Every now and then, you get a match where everything clicks. Hell, sometimes, players go through a much longer spell than a match. Novak virtually had 6 months like that in 2011, where every performance against a top player was a clinic. All the top players look unbeatable at their very best. Nadal looked pretty damn dominant himself last summer, and beat Novak on hards twice in the process. But, on the long run, not even the best players in the world can keep up this level.

Now, let me be clear about something: Djokovic DOES NOT need to play this well to beat Nadal on hards. He's played worse before and beat him in routine fashion. However, and here is what I wanted to touch on, as out of options as Nadal looked on Sunday (and he did look pretty damn out of options), the slightest drop in Novak's level the next time they play (and while I'm not saying he can't recreate that performance, it's not far-fetched to assume he might be a touch less sharp), and Nadal will all of a sudden seem like he has options.

That's how small the margins are in tennis. A little less depth on a Djokovic backhand cross court means Nadal all of a sudden has a chance to change directions and fire the ball up the line with the forehand. That shot alone can change the dynamic of the match-up, as it has in the past. Except, it's hard to execute that shot when your opponent is hitting obscenely good cross court backhands. Conversely, Novak cannot be expected to hit his backhand quite as well all the time. They've played 40 times already. There's a reason Djokovic hasn't won all 40, or even 20 of their meetings.

Take their Montreal match last year. Novak of course, did not play anywhere near as well as he did last Sunday. But, with the exception of an admittedly poor first set, he played at a pretty damn good level, and the result was one their most entertaining matches. The level of tennis in that third set was ridiculous. Nadal was hitting his cross court backhand so well, as well as his down the line forehand, and ultimately, that won him the match. Yet, had Novak been hitting his backhand as well as he did in Miami, the outcome would have been in reverse. But, that goes back to the point I just made: He can't be expected to always play like that.

But again to be clear, as well as Nadal played in Montreal, he still won 7-6 in the third. Which is as close as it can get. So clearly, Novak has an edge on hards, and a significant one in my mind.

Where Novak needs to be perfect though, is clay. They've played a bazillion times on clay, and the only 3 times Novak was able to win, he was virtually perfect. Anything less (like his FO performance) will just not cut it. Speaking of which, and just to highlight how close the margins are, take their Monte Carlo match last year: Novak was unplayable in the first set and took Nadal to task. Yet, a slight drop in his level in the second, and Nadal was back in it, despite not playing all that much better himself, and even then he was twice up a break and blew it, including once serving for the set.

Let me point out that I'm not calling you out per se, as your post isn't technically wrong, but I'm pointing out that it's easy to get carried away sometimes, and ignoring the bigger picture. I'm on the record saying Novak will beat Nadal more often than not, and have said that 3 years ago. I believe that today more than ever. But let's keep in mind that things like surfaces, form, confidence, momentum and other intangibles matter a great deal (Nadal's US Open final with Novak is a great example. He was just in better form, had all the momentum/confidence in the world, and was just playing better. He came in as the favorite against Novak on hards -- quite a rarity. And the result surprised no one). These things make a whole lot of difference. Hence Novak going from beating Nadal 6 times in a row to losing 6 out of 7 to beat him 3 times in a row again. It's easy to say "see! At his best, he'll never lose to Nadal." Or "if only he played like that at the US Open!" Except it's not that simple.

I agree with this pretty much. I think Novak fans are certainly hoping this is the beginning of a trend ( as he has not looked this dominant in a long time, maybe monte carlo last year). My hope is this is the beginning of a tare from Novak...
 

Fiero425

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Riotbeard said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.

I'm glad you made this post because it highlights a thinking that I believe is a bit faulty. I don't know how to explain this properly but I'll try:

Let me start off by saying, the above post is right, strictly speaking. If Djokovic plays like this on hards, there is not much Nadal can do, or anyone else for that matter.

However, it ignores how small the margins are in tennis at the highest level, and implies a sense of helplessness on the behalf of the loser that isn't necessarily there. Nadal doesn't have to "hope" Novak's level drops because Novak's level WILL drop. I said as much in 2011 and people got on my case. Every now and then, you get a match where everything clicks. Hell, sometimes, players go through a much longer spell than a match. Novak virtually had 6 months like that in 2011, where every performance against a top player was a clinic. All the top players look unbeatable at their very best. Nadal looked pretty damn dominant himself last summer, and beat Novak on hards twice in the process. But, on the long run, not even the best players in the world can keep up this level.

Now, let me be clear about something: Djokovic DOES NOT need to play this well to beat Nadal on hards. He's played worse before and beat him in routine fashion. However, and here is what I wanted to touch on, as out of options as Nadal looked on Sunday (and he did look pretty damn out of options), the slightest drop in Novak's level the next time they play (and while I'm not saying he can't recreate that performance, it's not far-fetched to assume he might be a touch less sharp), and Nadal will all of a sudden seem like he has options.

That's how small the margins are in tennis. A little less depth on a Djokovic backhand cross court means Nadal all of a sudden has a chance to change directions and fire the ball up the line with the forehand. That shot alone can change the dynamic of the match-up, as it has in the past. Except, it's hard to execute that shot when your opponent is hitting obscenely good cross court backhands. Conversely, Novak cannot be expected to hit his backhand quite as well all the time. They've played 40 times already. There's a reason Djokovic hasn't won all 40, or even 20 of their meetings.

Take their Montreal match last year. Novak of course, did not play anywhere near as well as he did last Sunday. But, with the exception of an admittedly poor first set, he played at a pretty damn good level, and the result was one their most entertaining matches. The level of tennis in that third set was ridiculous. Nadal was hitting his cross court backhand so well, as well as his down the line forehand, and ultimately, that won him the match. Yet, had Novak been hitting his backhand as well as he did in Miami, the outcome would have been in reverse. But, that goes back to the point I just made: He can't be expected to always play like that.

But again to be clear, as well as Nadal played in Montreal, he still won 7-6 in the third. Which is as close as it can get. So clearly, Novak has an edge on hards, and a significant one in my mind.

Where Novak needs to be perfect though, is clay. They've played a bazillion times on clay, and the only 3 times Novak was able to win, he was virtually perfect. Anything less (like his FO performance) will just not cut it. Speaking of which, and just to highlight how close the margins are, take their Monte Carlo match last year: Novak was unplayable in the first set and took Nadal to task. Yet, a slight drop in his level in the second, and Nadal was back in it, despite not playing all that much better himself, and even then he was twice up a break and blew it, including once serving for the set.

Let me point out that I'm not calling you out per se, as your post isn't technically wrong, but I'm pointing out that it's easy to get carried away sometimes, and ignoring the bigger picture. I'm on the record saying Novak will beat Nadal more often than not, and have said that 3 years ago. I believe that today more than ever. But let's keep in mind that things like surfaces, form, confidence, momentum and other intangibles matter a great deal (Nadal's US Open final with Novak is a great example. He was just in better form, had all the momentum/confidence in the world, and was just playing better. He came in as the favorite against Novak on hards -- quite a rarity. And the result surprised no one). These things make a whole lot of difference. Hence Novak going from beating Nadal 6 times in a row to losing 6 out of 7 to beat him 3 times in a row again. It's easy to say "see! At his best, he'll never lose to Nadal." Or "if only he played like that at the US Open!" Except it's not that simple.

I agree with this pretty much. I think Novak are certainly hoping this is the beginning of a trend (as he has not looked this dominant in a long time, maybe Monte Carlo last year). My hope is this is the beginning of a "tare" from Novak...

Nole's still the only player to beat Nadal 4 or more times in a row; at least twice now! We'll see what the future holds! :clap :angel:
 

Front242

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A tare is better than a tear I guess although over here having a tear means something quite a lot different :laydownlaughing
 

Kieran

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nehmeth said:
Denisovich said:
The most important thing is that I have not seen Djokovic dominate Nadal so badly. Nadal basically had no answers whatsoever. It was Djokovic, Djokovic, and Djokovic. Very promising. I don't see Nadal finding the answers too, he'll just have to hope that the level drops somehow.

What Kieran has said, this match-up has its ebbs and flows. Last year at the Rodgers Cup, I was watching Rafa practicing. The way he was hitting the ball, I knew Novak would be toast. And... he was. Rafa wasn't hitting anywhere close to that level Sunday. If he had, the way Novak was playing (I think) he still would have won, but it would have been three close sets instead of a blowout.

Rafa will be motivated to get on top of things in Monte Carlo, we'll see what happens there. Obviously Novak somehow remembered what worked in 2011 and employed it almost flawlessly in Miami. It's a strategy that translates well across surfaces - as we saw in Madrid and Rome that year. It would be nice to see him do that again.

Exactly. And it's Nadal's level dropping since the US Open has affected him as much as Nole putting the hammer in. These guys ebb and flow against each other...
 

Front242

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His level is just up and down match to match same as Fed's. Saying it's dropped much since the USO is going completely overboard as he mangled Istomin and Fognini. Likewise, Fed played great before he played Nishikori. Fed fans know this match to match level is completely up in the air at this stage and maybe as Nadal is approaching 28 he's going down the same route.

Djokovic didn't look amazing all week and was lucky to have saved his best and peaked in the final. Fed and Nadal weren't quite so lucky.
 

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^^ And Novak too for that matter. He hasn't played a match like the Miami final all year and it took him 3 months to finally do it. There's no guarantee w/ any of them right now. It's up & down for all of the top players. Look at Stan. He hasn't really done much since winning AO.
 

nehmeth

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Front242 said:
His level is just up and down match to match same as Fed's. Saying it's dropped much since the USO is going completely overboard as he mangled Istomin and Fognini. Likewise, Fed played great before he played Nishikori. Fed fans know this match to match level is completely up in the air at this stage and maybe as Nadal is approaching 28 he's going down the same route.

Djokovic didn't look amazing all week and was lucky to have saved his best and peaked in the final. Fed and Nadal weren't quite so lucky.

I believe Kieran was speaking to Rafa and Novak's play against each other. Ralf can get by with his "B" game against most anyone else out there.
 

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Yeah, I think that just as Nole put his foot down, Rafa became like a sated bull. He's been wholly inconsistent since Flushing Meadows, but maybe that's to be expected...
 

Front242

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nehmeth said:
Front242 said:
His level is just up and down match to match same as Fed's. Saying it's dropped much since the USO is going completely overboard as he mangled Istomin and Fognini. Likewise, Fed played great before he played Nishikori. Fed fans know this match to match level is completely up in the air at this stage and maybe as Nadal is approaching 28 he's going down the same route.

Djokovic didn't look amazing all week and was lucky to have saved his best and peaked in the final. Fed and Nadal weren't quite so lucky.

I believe Kieran was speaking to Rafa and Novak's play against each other. Ralf can get by with his "B" game against most anyone else out there.

What grade would you give his play against Dolgo?
 

Denis

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@BS I know the margins are small and this was hards. Just saying, this looks promising heading into the clay season. RG is all I care about. And if Novak delivers he has a chance against Nadal.

Btw, it is nice that Novak has straight-setted Nadal three times in a row now, something that Nadal has never done to Novak.
 

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Denisovich said:
Btw, it is nice that Novak has straight-setted Nadal three times in a row now, something that Nadal has never done to Novak.
Nadal may never do this, even if the surface is clay. Every player has their kryptonite and Nole is Nadal's.
 

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Yeah, I certainly wouldn't have expected that, after the US Open final. It's a bravura response by Nole...
 

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Fiero425 said:
Nole's still the only player to beat Nadal 4 or more times in a row; at least twice now! We'll see what the future holds! :clap :angel:

Actually, I think this recent run is 3 matches, (see H2H here,) and I hope Rafa reverses the trend before it gets to 4.
;)
 

Front242

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Clay season this year is gonna be more interesting than ever imo! And I know we say that every year :D Nadal keen to defend everything in sight as usual and Djokovic trying to make up lost ground for a few early exits last year, especially the 2nd round loss to Dimitrov at Madrid.