US Politics Thread

[Kieran]

If you haven't read the administrations demands on Harvard, or Harvard's response, they're worth the read. I can post them, in case anyone is interested. But the demands are unlawful, and no private institution of higher education should submit itself to such government oversight, esp. as vague as some of the demands are, as well as unconstitutional.

But the worst is that the government is threatening them with loss of funding for research should they not comply, which is work that improves and saves lives. Harvard, as an educational institution, can exist on its own endowment, but the serious and important research that they do, in their medical labs, for one, needs government funding, and it does work for the betterment of all Americans and the world. This is short-sighted and foolhardy, but work will be shut down if Trump makes good on his threat.

I’d be interested to read the links, in a spirit of curiosity, and nothing else. I know they have/had issues with anti-semitism and there was the Claudine Gay fiasco, but these can be isolated and not necessarily a reason for government interference..

 

[Moxie]

I’d be interested to read the links, in a spirit of curiosity, and nothing else. I know they have/had issues with anti-semitism and there was the Claudine Gay fiasco, but these can be isolated and not necessarily a reason for government interference..

Here's the letter the government wrote to Harvard, outlining their conditions. In a petty move, I thought, they DID add what seems like a swipe at Claudine Gay, as to vigilance about faculty plagiarism, (as if they aren't, generally, Jesus,) which is then overseen by an independent government committee. I'm not sure where they are going to get the manpower for this committee, since they have gutted both the Department of Education, and the Department of Health and Human Services. They want Harvard to police foreign admissions "to prevent admitting students hostile to the American values...." That condition is pretty vague. And who's in charge of judging what these "American values" are, or what being "hostile" to them means? Presumably the Trump administration, since they're the ones determining who gets kicked out of the country these days, due process and the courts be damned.

https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2025/04/Letter-Sent-to-Harvard-2025-04-11.pdf

Harvard's response (well, their lawyers'):

 

[Federberg]

If you haven't read the administrations demands on Harvard, or Harvard's response, they're worth the read. I can post them, in case anyone is interested. But the demands are unlawful, and no private institution of higher education should submit itself to such government oversight, esp. as vague as some of the demands are, as well as unconstitutional.

But the worst is that the government is threatening them with loss of funding for research should they not comply, which is work that improves and saves lives. Harvard, as an educational institution, can exist on its own endowment, but the serious and important research that they do, in their medical labs, for one, needs government funding, and it does work for the betterment of all Americans and the world. This is short-sighted and foolhardy, but work will be shut down if Trump makes good on his threat.

I agree with you. This is yet another area where Trump has somewhat of a point, but finds a way to completely botch the execution. There's no question that there's been ideological capture in universities. Same on this side of the pond. I'm not sure what policy measures can be taken to deal with the problem though. For sure the market will, over time, take corrective steps to fix the issue. A century ago, the best universities in the world were in Germany and they became ideologically captured, and they lost their prestige. Perhaps it would be better for that to be fixed more quickly, but the donor class like Bill Ackerman are already turning their attention to this problem, and Niall Ferguson has created a new university in Texas. These things will probably force change in time. But for sure if there's some sort of intervention that can deal with the administration of these universities then I'm all for it. I read something not that long ago about universities and the decline of innovative research, some of the conclusions were so controversial some on here would accuse me of misogyny for even disseminating them. I don't know if it's true, but... if it is then something has to be done. Otherwise the decline will accelerate

 

[Kieran]

Here's the letter the government wrote to Harvard, outlining their conditions. In a petty move, I thought, they DID add what seems like a swipe at Claudine Gay, as to vigilance about faculty plagiarism, (as if they aren't, generally, Jesus,) which is then overseen by an independent government committee. I'm not sure where they are going to get the manpower for this committee, since they have gutted both the Department of Education, and the Department of Health and Human Services. They want Harvard to police foreign admissions "to prevent admitting students hostile to the American values...." That condition is pretty vague. And who's in charge of judging what these "American values" are, or what being "hostile" to them means? Presumably the Trump administration, since they're the ones determining who gets kicked out of the country these days, due process and the courts be damned.

https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2025/04/Letter-Sent-to-Harvard-2025-04-11.pdf

Harvard's response (well, their lawyers'):
View attachment 10025
View attachment 10026

Thanks for that, I’ll have a read tomoro.

 

[Moxie]

I agree with you. This is yet another area where Trump has somewhat of a point, but finds a way to completely botch the execution. There's no question that there's been ideological capture in universities. Same on this side of the pond. I'm not sure what policy measures can be taken to deal with the problem though. For sure the market will, over time, take corrective steps to fix the issue. A century ago, the best universities in the world were in Germany and they became ideologically captured, and they lost their prestige. Perhaps it would be better for that to be fixed more quickly, but the donor class like Bill Ackerman are already turning their attention to this problem, and Niall Ferguson has created a new university in Texas. These things will probably force change in time. But for sure if there's some sort of intervention that can deal with the administration of these universities then I'm all for it. I read something not that long ago about universities and the decline of innovative research, some of the conclusions were so controversial some on here would accuse me of misogyny for even disseminating them. I don't know if it's true, but... if it is then something has to be done. Otherwise the decline will accelerate

We don't agree on how much of this "ideological capture" at universities is a problem, and I probably would prefer to call it something else, but as you say, Trump has certainly botched the execution. Their version of government oversight of universities isn't the answer, either. Especially now that there's no one to do it. And anyone Trump has installed is too ideological on the other side.

But withholding funding for research is a terrible idea. I'm sure you could come up with some research that you disagree with, or find to be a waste of money, but let's focus on the important stuff, like medical research. This is only one example, but it's the one I know. My brother works at a Harvard genetics lab, I believe I have mentioned. They collect and sequence DNA of people with specific illnesses (cardiac, cancers, etc.) and their family members, to find the specific genetic markers that cause them. Finding these genetic links are breakthroughs. This helps in the development of new drugs to treat them. They also work in tandem with hospitals in the Boston area, and cooperatively with like-minded labs at U Penn and others to share data and compare findings. This kind of research costs money, but these are the things that cure cancers.

I asked my brother a couple of weeks ago what the talk was around there. He said people were worried, but no one knew anything. But he did say, and this surprised me, that he didn't feel his job was secure anymore, as he is no alarmist. I am waiting to hear how he feels after this latest. My point is, they are risking losing this kind of research, and the slash-and-burn tactics of the administration don't seem to have the patience for wading through massive amounts of information on research to pick-and-choose what they keep.

 

[Moxie]

I heard back from my brother, with some details about ramifications of this that I had not considered. (And I feel fairly certain that Trump and Musk haven't, either, since it didn't even occur to them that firing the nuclear weapons workers would be a mistake.)

Not all research is funded by the government, but for those with projects that are, he says they've already received stop-work orders. He says that probably Boston will no longer be the biomedical research capital of the world. Foreign student enrollment will fall off in the US by a lot this year, and foreign students pay full tuition, generally, so that will be a loss. He said Chinese students, in particular, often stay to do research, and eventually become citizens, which they now won't. When the money gets a lot smaller, the best scientists will go abroad, (Europe, UK, Asia, Australia, Canada,) but the money is less than what it was here. In any case, it adds up to a brain drain for the US that will last for decades. These cuts, along with recession and the effect of tariffs, plus the fact that Trump wants to strip Harvard of its non-profit status. So, that's Boston devastated. And good jobs for scientists across the country reduced, unless the administration plans to move that money to red states, and not just save it for taxes cuts for the wealthiest, though I suspect the latter.

He said Harvard will spend a lot of money in lawsuits, many of which they'll win, but who knows what winning a lawsuit against the government even means anymore, in today's America.

In addition, tourism has dried up badly to the US. Canadians are pretty much not coming at all, nor Europeans. Something like $20 Bn in losses coming up is the Bloomberg estimate.

 

[Kieran]

Here's the letter the government wrote to Harvard, outlining their conditions. In a petty move, I thought, they DID add what seems like a swipe at Claudine Gay, as to vigilance about faculty plagiarism, (as if they aren't, generally, Jesus,) which is then overseen by an independent government committee. I'm not sure where they are going to get the manpower for this committee, since they have gutted both the Department of Education, and the Department of Health and Human Services. They want Harvard to police foreign admissions "to prevent admitting students hostile to the American values...." That condition is pretty vague. And who's in charge of judging what these "American values" are, or what being "hostile" to them means? Presumably the Trump administration, since they're the ones determining who gets kicked out of the country these days, due process and the courts be damned.

https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2025/04/Letter-Sent-to-Harvard-2025-04-11.pdf

Harvard's response (well, their lawyers'):
View attachment 10025
View attachment 10026

Thanks again for the letters.

When I read the following posts and saw you both discussing “ideological capture”, then found those words in the government letter, it became more clear to me what was being discussed. Here’s an example of ideological capture, as described by the Harvard economist, Roland Fryer:



It definitely exists. The idea that all those loopy students were running around the campus protesting after doing due diligence on the topic is insane. They were certainly anti-Semitic, and not only that, but the president of Harvard was smirkingly online with them.

But I agree with you both that Trump’s one dimensional approach to this isn’t the way. Harvard insist they’re making efforts. It’s something I complained about Biden and it’s the same thing now that you have Trump: they’re not using the presidency to benefit anyone other than their base. They’re not Presidents for all Americans. It’s bad politics has given you this great division, and I honestly don’t know what Harvard can do here other than rigorously examine itself and make the campus more safe and welcoming to other views.

As for tourism drying up, I haven’t been to America since 2009, when you and I met, and I’ve gone off the place, which I used to love to visit. I was even offered a free trip to New York in 2023, I think it was, I think I mentioned it to you, and I got out of that by blaming their vaccine requirements.

I went off visiting America not because of Trump…

 

[Moxie]

Thanks again for the letters.

When I read the following posts and saw you both discussing “ideological capture”, then found those words in the government letter, it became more clear to me what was being discussed. Here’s an example of ideological capture, as described by the Harvard economist, Roland Fryer:



It definitely exists. The idea that all those loopy students were running around the campus protesting after doing due diligence on the topic is insane. They were certainly anti-Semitic, and not only that, but the president of Harvard was smirkingly online with them.

But I agree with you both that Trump’s one dimensional approach to this isn’t the way. Harvard insist they’re making efforts. It’s something I complained about Biden and it’s the same thing now that you have Trump: they’re not using the presidency to benefit anyone other than their base. They’re not Presidents for all Americans. It’s bad politics has given you this great division, and I honestly don’t know what Harvard can do here other than rigorously examine itself and make the campus more safe and welcoming to other views.

As for tourism drying up, I haven’t been to America since 2009, when you and I met, and I’ve gone off the place, which I used to love to visit. I was even offered a free trip to New York in 2023, I think it was, I think I mentioned it to you, and I got out of that by blaming their vaccine requirements.

I went off visiting America not because of Trump…

I do remember why you didn't come, and it wasn't because you went off the US. Anyway, it's not about you not visiting since 2009. We're talking about tourism dollars that will be lost this year specifically because of Trump's policies and of a general fear of being foreign in the US right now. Canadians are the single largest source of tourism money to the US ($20.5 bn annually,) and they are pretty committed to not coming this year. That alone will impact the US and American jobs in a big way.

 

[Federberg]

I heard back from my brother, with some details about ramifications of this that I had not considered. (And I feel fairly certain that Trump and Musk haven't, either, since it didn't even occur to them that firing the nuclear weapons workers would be a mistake.)

Not all research is funded by the government, but for those with projects that are, he says they've already received stop-work orders. He says that probably Boston will no longer be the biomedical research capital of the world. Foreign student enrollment will fall off in the US by a lot this year, and foreign students pay full tuition, generally, so that will be a loss. He said Chinese students, in particular, often stay to do research, and eventually become citizens, which they now won't. When the money gets a lot smaller, the best scientists will go abroad, (Europe, UK, Asia, Australia, Canada,) but the money is less than what it was here. In any case, it adds up to a brain drain for the US that will last for decades. These cuts, along with recession and the effect of tariffs, plus the fact that Trump wants to strip Harvard of its non-profit status. So, that's Boston devastated. And good jobs for scientists across the country reduced, unless the administration plans to move that money to red states, and not just save it for taxes cuts for the wealthiest, though I suspect the latter.

He said Harvard will spend a lot of money in lawsuits, many of which they'll win, but who knows what winning a lawsuit against the government even means anymore, in today's America.

In addition, tourism has dried up badly to the US. Canadians are pretty much not coming at all, nor Europeans. Something like $20 Bn in losses coming up is the Bloomberg estimate.

you should hear the horror stories being told by Chinese businessmen coming to America. Your point about universities is on point. Trump has triggered a negative feedback loop that will harm American universities and as you point out, intellectual pursuits in America. Obviously I'm not on Trump's side with this, but it's not clear to me that other Republican wouldn't have taken hostile positions against the ideological capture in universities. To a large extent they brought this on themselves with their inflated fees and politics

 

[Federberg]

I do remember why you didn't come, and it wasn't because you went off the US. Anyway, it's not about you not visiting since 2009. We're talking about tourism dollars that will be lost this year specifically because of Trump's policies and of a general fear of being foreign in the US right now. Canadians are the single largest source of tourism money to the US ($20.5 bn annually,) and they are pretty committed to not coming this year. That alone will impact the US and American jobs in a big way.

could be worse than that if tariffs stick. You could get a flood of Americans going the other way to tariff shop

 

[Kieran]

I do remember why you didn't come, and it wasn't because you went off the US.

It was a large part of it, but I wasn’t going to get into that with you, plus the expense of this free trip, which was brought home to me by the other siblings who went. But if it was Rome, I’d swallow the cost. Fortunately the US vaccine rules helped me.

Anyway, it's not about you not visiting since 2009. We're talking about tourism dollars that will be lost this year specifically because of Trump's policies and of a general fear of being foreign in the US right now. Canadians are the single largest source of tourism money to the US ($20.5 bn annually,) and they are pretty committed to not coming this year. That alone will impact the US and American jobs in a big way.

It’s definitely a problem, but of course they have to root out the real problem of so many illegals coming in. I’m sure it’ll settle…

 

[Moxie]

you should hear the horror stories being told by Chinese businessmen coming to America.

I haven't. Please elaborate.

Your point about universities is on point. Trump has triggered a negative feedback loop that will harm American universities and as you point out, intellectual pursuits in America. Obviously I'm not on Trump's side with this, but it's not clear to me that other Republican wouldn't have taken hostile positions against the ideological capture in universities. To a large extent they brought this on themselves with their inflated fees and politics

It's not that this wasn't going to be confronted, but that Trump has gone about it in completely the wrong way, as you said before. If their goal was taking on lack of intellectual diversity at Harvard, that wasn't their stated goal, and the message was very muddled. Likewise, the method of coercion was a cudgel, and completely the wrong one. Trump's punishment of Harvard, therefore, will be an act of self-harm, in that he is the President of the US, and this will be bad for the US generally. No, I don't think they brought this on themselves, not in this form. This is not an effort to effect change, but an act of retribution. And of control. The methodology is muddled, illegal, and outsized to the problem.

 

[Moxie]

It’s definitely a problem, but of course they have to root out the real problem of so many illegals coming in. I’m sure it’ll settle…

Killing the tourism industry has nothing to do with handling illegal aliens sneaking into the country. They are the opposite. I'm talking about tourists who would normally come and bring their money to spend in the US who are willfully staying away due to one thing or many that Trump has done. They don't even distract from each other, so I don't know where you're going with that. Will it "settle?" Probably after Trump is out of office. But not until billions of tourist dollars are lost. Even if it's just this summer, it's happening this tourist season. Is that really so hard for you to understand?

 

[Moxie]

The IRS insists that considering Harvard's tax-exempt status is completely independent from any pressure or influence by Trump, even though he has stated as much on Truth Social. That's illegal. If it gets revoke, Harvard will sue, and everyone believes they will win. There is no basis for revoking it other than that Trump wants it. As always, he wants to punish any push back against him.

 

[Federberg]

I haven't. Please elaborate.

a lot of them are being called into interview rooms and asked to show their phones

 

[Federberg]

I haven't. Please elaborate.

It's not that this wasn't going to be confronted, but that Trump has gone about it in completely the wrong way, as you said before. If their goal was taking on lack of intellectual diversity at Harvard, that wasn't their stated goal, and the message was very muddled. Likewise, the method of coercion was a cudgel, and completely the wrong one. Trump's punishment of Harvard, therefore, will be an act of self-harm, in that he is the President of the US, and this will be bad for the US generally. No, I don't think they brought this on themselves, not in this form. This is not an effort to effect change, but an act of retribution. And of control. The methodology is muddled, illegal, and outsized to the problem.

I think Harvard is being targeted because they figured prominently in the protests last year, but my point is more general and it's been going on for far longer than that. There is a freezing of intellectual exploration, and a trend towards social and intellectual conformity that is completely against the traditions and principles of academia. Quite frankly if David Duke wanted to go to a university to give a lecture about his views that's the one place where that should not just be allowed but encouraged. Students are supposed to absorb information and different views and learn how to use logic to oppose or agree. What is really concerning is the unwillingness to allow debate and opposing views. I can't think of anything more anti-growth than boycotts. I'm sure I don't even have to go into the whole safe spaces thing, or the absolute abuse of due process regarding sexual assault allegations.

Forget about foreigners being disincentivised there's a bigger crisis with one gender starting to avoid universities wholesale. It's not GOOD.. These so called institutions of knowledge need to get their houses in order. It would be bad enough if these places offered value for money and were still producing genuinely innovate research but they aren't. It's very clear that the path they've gone down is the death knell of genuine intellectual growth. And a lot of prominent researchers have been sounding the alarm over the last decade. Something NEEDS to change

 

[Kieran]

Killing the tourism industry has nothing to do with handling illegal aliens sneaking into the country. They are the opposite.

I was referring to your comment about “a general fear of being foreign in the US right now.”

Your country allowed to make illegals to come in as if it was okay. They should have a fear about being in the USA illegally.

I'm talking about tourists who would normally come and bring their money to spend in the US who are willfully staying away due to one thing or many that Trump has done. They don't even distract from each other, so I don't know where you're going with that. Will it "settle?" Probably after Trump is out of office. But not until billions of tourist dollars are lost. Even if it's just this summer, it's happening this tourist season. Is that really so hard for you to understand?

I got in early on this one, and I used to love my NYC trips, I went maybe seven times in eight years, first time was to see the great Pete’s final match. I could see your politics was gone sour and ugly when Trump was still a donor to all your favourite democrats, It hasn’t improved under him, it’s just realised itself…

 

[Kieran]

This is a timely talk about American universities:



It’s time stamped with chapters, which helps for a longish video:

In this they discuss diversity of thought, among other problems:

 

[Moxie]

I think Harvard is being targeted because they figured prominently in the protests last year, but my point is more general and it's been going on for far longer than that. There is a freezing of intellectual exploration, and a trend towards social and intellectual conformity that is completely against the traditions and principles of academia. Quite frankly if David Duke wanted to go to a university to give a lecture about his views that's the one place where that should not just be allowed but encouraged. Students are supposed to absorb information and different views and learn how to use logic to oppose or agree. What is really concerning is the unwillingness to allow debate and opposing views. I can't think of anything more anti-growth than boycotts. I'm sure I don't even have to go into the whole safe spaces thing, or the absolute abuse of due process regarding sexual assault allegations.

Forget about foreigners being disincentivised there's a bigger crisis with one gender starting to avoid universities wholesale. It's not GOOD.. These so called institutions of knowledge need to get their houses in order. It would be bad enough if these places offered value for money and were still producing genuinely innovate research but they aren't. It's very clear that the path they've gone down is the death knell of genuine intellectual growth. And a lot of prominent researchers have been sounding the alarm over the last decade. Something NEEDS to change

I know what you think about what's going on in universities, but we agree that Trump's approach is ham-fisted and wrong-headed. (And there are a lot of reasons why male enrollment is down, and left-leaning universities is far from the top of the list.)

Forgive me, but I think the state of the economy and Trump's (Musk's) dismantling of the government are bigger problems than the philosophical bent of our universities. It might have been a bigger issue if we had a normal President in charge of things, but for now it just isn't. Not for me. Tourism is only one thing that he's sending into the trash, but the list is long, and I merely mentioned it.

 

[Moxie]

Once again, walking back another in a series of obvious blunders, Trump officials say that the letter sent to Harvard was sent by "mistake." FFS.