Wimbledon 2014 final: Federer vs Djokovic

[Backhand_DTL]

I agree with you here, Darth, because the momentum was all Federer at the end of the fourth. In fact, at one stage in the late fourth set, I remember commenting that Nole is close to winning the match right HERE - and so is Roger! It could have swung that swiftly - and decisively - and I wouldn't have been shocked had Roger taken an early lead in the fifth.

But after the fourth, they both took long toilet breaks, and then Nole had an MTO after the 3rd game of the fifth set, I think - but by then he'd served twice, almost casually, and Roger's momentum was nowhere to be seen.

It was a mystery to me as well...

Roger might have needed a lot of energy to turn the fourth set around and couldn't keep up that energy level at the start of the fifth. Also I think in a match between two players of nearly even quality the one who was ahead still has an advantage in the fifth as it seems hard to keep up the momentum up until the end of the match for the one who came back.

In the five setters between the big four the winner of the fourth set more often lost the match in the end I think. Off the top of my head apart from this match I remember that being the case in the Wimbledon finals in 2007 and 2008, the Australian Open finals in 2009 and 2012, the US Open final in 2012, last year's French Open semi final between Novak and Rafa and last year's Australian Open match between Andy and Roger. The only exceptions I remember are the US Open matches between Roger and Novak in 2010 and 2011 and Novak's SF against Andy at the Australian Open 2012. And even there Novak had to save match points in the first two and break points at 5:5 in the third, so couldn't use his momentum after the fourth set to win the fifth easily either.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Or Roger's two toilet breaks, just after he lost the second and fourth sets?

Roger took only one toilet break after the second set (which he lost). Novak
took the other toilet break just after the fourth set (which he lost).

 

[GameSetAndMath]

^ Oh, we know all too well Rafa is allowed to use it. The better question is whether anyone else would be allowed to go right before his opponent served for the match or whether anyone else would be classless enough to try it?

In Nole's defense it did look like he was shaken up there. If that was an act then he did a good job in selling it. I do think it was timely even though he was up 2-1 in the 5th.

What was that all about with Federer; changing rackets after the break and making Nole wait? It may not have been "bush," but it truly was strange! uzzled :nono :angel:

Roger has a well defined pattern of when he changes the racquets. He changes the
racquets at the same time when new balls are set on play, if he is receiving. If new balls
are going to be used when he serves, he changes the racquets one game before.

In Grand Slam matches, after the first 7 games, balls are changed. After that,
balls are changed every 9 games.

Roger simply followed the same scheme yesterday. Once he realized on the next
service game (in which he had to serve) new balls will be used, he changed the racquets
making Novak wait for a few seconds.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[Moxie]

^ Oh, we know all too well Rafa is allowed to use it. The better question is whether anyone else would be allowed to go right before his opponent served for the match or whether anyone else would be classless enough to try it?

In Nole's defense it did look like he was shaken up there. If that was an act then he did a good job in selling it. I do think it was timely even though he was up 2-1 in the 5th.

What was that all about with Federer; changing rackets after the break and making Nole wait? It may not have been "bush," but it truly was strange! uzzled :nono :angel:

So which is it? Nadal the only offender, or maybe a little gamesmanship from Roger? Surely, none from Djokovic…even with a tender massage on the thigh. :dodgy:

What do you want me to say? Ok, they all do it! HAPPY??? This goes back to the 90's with the women calling out a trainer at strategic times! I quite remember at Hilton Head on clay, Gabriella Sabatini took an "attire break" twice; each time when Graf was serving for the set and was broken subsequently! Gabby won in straight sets 7-5, 7-6 when Steffi was up a break in each set! It happens and works at times!

Yes, I am happy. Perhaps now you won't go around proclaiming Nadal as a cheater, someone you can never forgive, for things that you now admit everyone does. You don't like his tennis, I get it. Like so many, that's mostly about the fact that he beats your favorite. Now perhaps we can leave off the gamesmanship conversations and go back to talking about the game, eh?

 

[Moxie]

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

He wouldn't be the first.

 

[Fiero425]

^ Oh, we know all too well Rafa is allowed to use it. The better question is whether anyone else would be allowed to go right before his opponent served for the match or whether anyone else would be classless enough to try it?

In Nole's defense it did look like he was shaken up there. If that was an act then he did a good job in selling it. I do think it was timely even though he was up 2-1 in the 5th.

What was that all about with Federer; changing rackets after the break and making Nole wait? It may not have been "bush," but it truly was strange! uzzled :nono :angel:

So which is it? Nadal the only offender, or maybe a little gamesmanship from Roger? Surely, none from Djokovic…even with a tender massage on the thigh. :dodgy:

What do you want me to say? Ok, they all do it! HAPPY??? This goes back to the 90's with the women calling out a trainer at strategic times! I quite remember at Hilton Head on clay, Gabriella Sabatini took an "attire break" twice; each time when Graf was serving for the set and was broken subsequently! Gabby won in straight sets 7-5, 7-6 when Steffi was up a break in each set! It happens and works at times!

Yes, I am happy. Perhaps now you won't go around proclaiming Nadal as a cheater, someone you can never forgive, for things that you now admit everyone does. You don't like his tennis, I get it. Like so many, that's mostly about the fact that he beats your favorite. Now perhaps we can leave off the gamesmanship conversations and go back to talking about the game, eh?

Wrong on all counts! I've never cared for Nadal's gamesmanship from day one; his self-entitlement, stalling, toweling off after every point, receiving coaching from the stands, and his ridiculous idea of a 2 year ranking to save his #1 status a few years ago! I'm more a purist and just hate the way he plays; so defensively when I know he could be doing more to close out matches against "also-rans!" He allows absolute nobodies to take him to the limit and this is all in his stubbornness to close out matches in a more respectable way! Overall his game is one of the ugliest in the history of the game! Nole didn't look that hot yesterday with that flailing forehand; esp. when he missed badly! I have no dog in this hunt any longer! All my real faves are gone, retired, or close to leaving the game so you're whistling in the dark about that! This Wimbledon final has been the first I've gotten up to actually watch live in quite a while; I've been so uninterested in today's play! The women's game isn't even on my radar and had no clue who those women were besides Kvitova and I only know her because she won it all back in '11! I'm not telling you anything new; no secret how I feel about things and how disillusioned with the ball bashing and defensive way most players show on the court! It's boring and takes too long with matches going over 3-4 hours routinely; even the women with best of 3! Petra made quick work of Bouchard though and is probably the most impressive performance of a women since Henin! :nono :angel:

 

[Moxie]

*sigh* So much for going back to discussion about the game.

What happens when your exclamation key wears out? And will that happen before our patience with your hysteria?

 

[Fiero425]

*sigh* So much for going back to discussion about the game.

What happens when your exclamation key wears out? And will that happen before our patience with your hysteria?

Honey if you get that exercised over a simple delimiter, you need more than a little help! :nono uzzled :lolz: :angel:

 

[Moxie]

What was that all about with Federer; changing rackets after the break and making Nole wait? It may not have been "bush," but it truly was strange! uzzled :nono :angel:

So which is it? Nadal the only offender, or maybe a little gamesmanship from Roger? Surely, none from Djokovic…even with a tender massage on the thigh. :dodgy:

What do you want me to say? Ok, they all do it! HAPPY??? This goes back to the 90's with the women calling out a trainer at strategic times! I quite remember at Hilton Head on clay, Gabriella Sabatini took an "attire break" twice; each time when Graf was serving for the set and was broken subsequently! Gabby won in straight sets 7-5, 7-6 when Steffi was up a break in each set! It happens and works at times!

Yes, I am happy. Perhaps now you won't go around proclaiming Nadal as a cheater, someone you can never forgive, for things that you now admit everyone does. You don't like his tennis, I get it. Like so many, that's mostly about the fact that he beats your favorite. Now perhaps we can leave off the gamesmanship conversations and go back to talking about the game, eh?

Wrong on all counts! I've never cared for Nadal's gamesmanship from day one; his self-entitlement, stalling, toweling off after every point, receiving coaching from the stands, and his ridiculous idea of a 2 year ranking to save his #1 status a few years ago! I'm more a purist and just hate the way he plays; so defensively when I know he could be doing more to close out matches against "also-rans!" He allows absolute nobodies to take him to the limit and this is all in his stubbornness to close out matches in a more respectable way! Overall his game is one of the ugliest in the history of the game! Nole didn't look that hot yesterday with that flailing forehand; esp. when he missed badly! I have no dog in this hunt any longer! All my real faves are gone, retired, or close to leaving the game so you're whistling in the dark about that! This Wimbledon final has been the first I've gotten up to actually watch live in quite a while; I've been so uninterested in today's play! The women's game isn't even on my radar and had no clue who those women were besides Kvitova and I only know her because she won it all back in '11! I'm not telling you anything new; no secret how I feel about things and how disillusioned with the ball bashing and defensive way most players show on the court! It's boring and takes too long with matches going over 3-4 hours routinely; even the women with best of 3! Petra made quick work of Bouchard though and is probably the most impressive performance of a women since Henin! :nono :angel:

I didn't highlight every one of your exclamatory statements - exasperated and disgusted with tennis as they are - only a sampling. I'm not "exercised" about your using delimiters or emoticons, per se. But it is an accumulation of hysteria that doesn't ultimately make that much sense. You start with responding to me on Nadal and gamesmanship, and you finish up on Justine Henin. With no discernible through-line. In the end, I have no problem with your exclamations and emoticons - that's your style. But if you'd like to try again to make a coherent argument, I'm all ears.

 

[Fiero425]

So which is it? Nadal the only offender, or maybe a little gamesmanship from Roger? Surely, none from Djokovic…even with a tender massage on the thigh. :dodgy:

What do you want me to say? Ok, they all do it! HAPPY??? This goes back to the 90's with the women calling out a trainer at strategic times! I quite remember at Hilton Head on clay, Gabriella Sabatini took an "attire break" twice; each time when Graf was serving for the set and was broken subsequently! Gabby won in straight sets 7-5, 7-6 when Steffi was up a break in each set! It happens and works at times!

Yes, I am happy. Perhaps now you won't go around proclaiming Nadal as a cheater, someone you can never forgive, for things that you now admit everyone does. You don't like his tennis, I get it. Like so many, that's mostly about the fact that he beats your favorite. Now perhaps we can leave off the gamesmanship conversations and go back to talking about the game, eh?

Wrong on all counts! I've never cared for Nadal's gamesmanship from day one; his self-entitlement, stalling, toweling off after every point, receiving coaching from the stands, and his ridiculous idea of a 2 year ranking to save his #1 status a few years ago! I'm more a purist and just hate the way he plays; so defensively when I know he could be doing more to close out matches against "also-rans!" He allows absolute nobodies to take him to the limit and this is all in his stubbornness to close out matches in a more respectable way! Overall his game is one of the ugliest in the history of the game! Nole didn't look that hot yesterday with that flailing forehand; esp. when he missed badly! I have no dog in this hunt any longer! All my real faves are gone, retired, or close to leaving the game so you're whistling in the dark about that! This Wimbledon final has been the first I've gotten up to actually watch live in quite a while; I've been so uninterested in today's play! The women's game isn't even on my radar and had no clue who those women were besides Kvitova and I only know her because she won it all back in '11! I'm not telling you anything new; no secret how I feel about things and how disillusioned with the ball bashing and defensive way most players show on the court! It's boring and takes too long with matches going over 3-4 hours routinely; even the women with best of 3! Petra made quick work of Bouchard though and is probably the most impressive performance of a women since Henin! :nono :angel:

I didn't highlight every one of your exclamatory statements - exasperated and disgusted with tennis as they are - only a sampling. I'm not "exercised" about your using delimiters or emoticons, per se. But it is an accumulation of hysteria that doesn't ultimately make that much sense. You start with responding to me on Nadal and gamesmanship, and you finish up on Justine Henin. With no discernible through-line. In the end, I have no problem with your exclamations and emoticons - that's your style. But if you'd like to try again to make a coherent argument, I'm all ears.

Pass! :nono uzzled :s

 

[Moxie]

^ I'll take that as a concession on gamesmanship, and that we're moving back to tennis conversation. This thread is mostly done, anyway.

 

[Kieran]

Or Roger's two toilet breaks, just after he lost the second and fourth sets?

Roger took only one toilet break after the second set (which he lost). Novak
took the other toilet break just after the fourth set (which he lost).

Well, not that it makes much difference, but Roger also took one after the fourth. I think toilet breaks at this stage of the match break momentum. Roger took one after the third set in the 2006 final, when the youthful, scrawny Rafa had won that set. This was a strategic, momentum breaking toilet break - and all players use them.

Similar to breaking momentum is to regroup within yourself. Roger isn't immune to this tactic, even going so far, notoriously as sitting on the potty until the sun went down, in a match against Davydenko, happily admitted by the man himself.

I don't blame him for this, but I don't think he should be praised at other players expense, when he's as culpable as they are...

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Or Roger's two toilet breaks, just after he lost the second and fourth sets?

Roger took only one toilet break after the second set (which he lost). Novak
took the other toilet break just after the fourth set (which he lost).

Well, not that it makes much difference, but Roger also took one after the fourth. I think toilet breaks at this stage of the match break momentum. Roger took one after the third set in the 2006 final, when the youthful, scrawny Rafa had won that set. This was a strategic, momentum breaking toilet break - and all players use them.

Similar to breaking momentum is to regroup within yourself. Roger isn't immune to this tactic, even going so far, notoriously as sitting on the potty until the sun went down, in a match against Davydenko, happily admitted by the man himself.

I don't blame him for this, but I don't think he should be praised at other players expense, when he's as culpable as they are...

I had already agreed that all players misuse the toilet break including Roger and Rafa in
my very first post on this topic. However, you seem to just want to mention some selectively.

I strongly believe that this toilet break issue need to be looked at by the organizers
carefully as it is not too difiicult to fix unlike the MTO issue.

Set toilet breaks officially in a predetermined manner for about 10 minutes or so
once every two hours (unless the offer is declined by both players) at a time suitable
for interruption. This would still have the effect of thwarting the momentum of the
player who is up at that time. At least, it will not be determined by the other player.
We can accept it like rain delay which has the same effect. Nobody will get blamed
as the players don't choose the time of toilet break.

Finally, if you cannot hold it even for two hours (See Rafa after 1st set loss against
Kukushkin), you should not even be playing professional sports, IMO.

 

[Kieran]

^^ Totally agree, and I'm not being selective, since I said that "all players use them". But I was also directly referring to the BS that goes on around here from Fedfans about Rafa doing these things - you might have missed that thread - when in fact, they all do it.

Totally agree about the two hours as well: Roger took a toilet break after 1' 34" on Sunday, and again after 3' 13". Novak did too. Players are using these comfort breaks as momentum breaks and disrupting the flow, and there needs to be a policy on it. I remember when the change of ends was every two games - and that included starting the next set immediately. Had that been still the rule, Nole would have had to serve immediately after losing the fourth, and the momentum Roger gathered could have been carried on.

They changed that rule, and I think they should have another look at these things, because part of the challenge of five set tennis is having to endure the shifts of fortune, handle the physical stress and benefit from any momentum you'll have gained by winning such a close fourth set...

 

[Front242]

They both took toilet breaks after sets ended and were back in the due time so I dunno why that's even an issue. No momentum is broken when you're allowed a set amount of time between sets anyway. It's clearly a whole lot different to a break before your opponent serves for the match!

 

[Kieran]

They both took toilet breaks after sets ended and were back in the due time so I dunno why that's even an issue. No momentum is broken when you're allowed a set amount of time between sets anyway. It's clearly a whole lot different to a break before your opponent serves for the match!

What about sitting on the potty until the sun has gone down? Would you agree with me that this is both hilarious and wrong?

 

[Front242]

They both took toilet breaks after sets ended and were back in the due time so I dunno why that's even an issue. No momentum is broken when you're allowed a set amount of time between sets anyway. It's clearly a whole lot different to a break before your opponent serves for the match!

What about sitting on the potty until the sun has gone down? Would you agree with me that this is both hilarious and wrong?

Yeah but it's nothing compared to before your opponent serves for the match. There was one game left to decide the outcome in that match and best of 5 sets vs Davydenko. Not even worth comparing.

 

[Kieran]

They both took toilet breaks after sets ended and were back in the due time so I dunno why that's even an issue. No momentum is broken when you're allowed a set amount of time between sets anyway. It's clearly a whole lot different to a break before your opponent serves for the match!

What about sitting on the potty until the sun has gone down? Would you agree with me that this is both hilarious and wrong?

Yeah

Thanks for that.

And by the way, your other point was good, that there's a time allowed between sets - and I think we would be both in agreement if we said that this should be looked at. Both finalists took two toilet breaks on Sunday. Are their bladders really so weak under pressure? I think the rules should be looked at...

 

[Front242]

They both took toilet breaks after sets ended and were back in the due time so I dunno why that's even an issue. No momentum is broken when you're allowed a set amount of time between sets anyway. It's clearly a whole lot different to a break before your opponent serves for the match!

What about sitting on the potty until the sun has gone down? Would you agree with me that this is both hilarious and wrong?

Yeah

Thanks for that.

And by the way, your other point was good, that there's a time allowed between sets - and I think we would be both in agreement if we said that this should be looked at. Both finalists took two toilet breaks on Sunday. Are their bladders really so weak under pressure? I think the rules should be looked at...

Think that's bad, this was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen!

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8k-7PJ_HodQ[/video]

 

[Kieran]

I love the way the cameraman stays fixed on the door. "Breaking news - here is a door!

I didn't listen to the audio - was it a woman's issue she raced off for?