Will there be anyone to challenge Alcaraz?

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,644
Reactions
30,734
Points
113
I do think he has the ambition. It's just a guess at this point, but I think it's one of the things that's made him a bad-boy. Remember that Roger was pretty ill-behaved in his early years, with the frustration of talent that was too unformed to keep up with his expectations of it. Another thing that might be motivating for him is having come up with Charly. They played against each other, and together, in doubles, as kids. If anything would light a fire under him, I'd think it would be seeing what Alcaraz is already doing, and wanting to meet it. Now, you might say, but what about Gasquet? He was born within weeks of Nadal, they played as juniors, and it didn't seem to give Richie a hot-foot. But let's face it: did Gasquet ever look as ambitious or hungry as Rune? I would say no.
It is official we call Charly now, I kn ow he prefers that, though I dont mind Kieran's name for him as Chaz lol!
Gasquet was a child prodigy never reached his potential sad to say, though the French Federation really teach their juniors technically well, they cant teach them to have the will to win, or the mental game is needed in our game
 
Last edited:

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,722
Reactions
14,892
Points
113
It is official we call Charly now, I kn ow he prefers that, though I dont mind Keiran's name for him as Chaz lol!
I do like Chaz! And I'm not mandating what anyone should call him. I'm just trying to practice with "Charly" because he says that's what he likes to be called and calls himself. If you saw that video that @tented put up in the Alcaraz fan thread, "Fuzzy Balls," or whatever it's called, he finds "Carlos" to be very formal, "Carlitos" is friendlier...to him.
Gasquet was a child prodigy never reached his potential sad to say, though the French Federation really teach their juniors technically well, they cant teach them to have the will to win, or the mental game is needed in our game
As I've said more than once, I don't like to trade in French stereotypes, but there does seem to be some preference for style over substance. I give you Paire's elegantly popped collar, hipster beard, and mind-blowingly erratic results.
 

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,644
Reactions
30,734
Points
113
I do like Chaz! And I'm not mandating what anyone should call him. I'm just trying to practice with "Charly" because he says that's what he likes to be called and calls himself. If you saw that video that @tented put up in the Alcaraz fan thread, "Fuzzy Balls," or whatever it's called, he finds "Carlos" to be very formal, "Carlitos" is friendlier...to him.

As I've said more than once, I don't like to trade in French stereotypes, but there does seem to be some preference for style over substance. I give you Paire's elegantly popped collar, hipster beard, and mind-blowingly erratic results.
Charly it is then, easier and quicker to type, I am over callingl these youngsters kids reminds me of a billy goat :) I am not a fan of tatoo's though I will alow that small tatoo Charly has on the inside of his wrist, no more though.
Paire could do with shaving of that beard for starters, who knows what he has growing in that bush,to me that isnt stylish at all.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,722
Reactions
14,892
Points
113
I'm not suggesting that any tennis players are using steroids, but it could be that with better training and health regimes, they are holding onto their fitness longer, and as they mature mentally, they combine experience with fitness and reach new levels--or at least maintain levels--a bit older and longer.
I've long agreed with this. Fitness regimes in tennis have changed over the years, starting with Borg and Martina, I think. Top players can also afford a big fitness team. Committed players work hard, adjust their diets, etc. (Remember we used to call Nalbandian "Fat Dave?" He was a one of the great unfulfilled talents for a few reasons.) Ferrer, on the other hand, would go out and run 6 miles after a match. (His coach Javier Piles was a big runner.) So, yes, if you work hard on your fitness, you stay healthy, then there IS the benefit of maturity, of experience, etc. to draw on. But I don't understand those who pretend that the years and the miles don't mean anything, in terms of the late-30s athlete.

The famous quote is: "If youth only knew, if age only could." Just put a pin in that one.

But maybe we are returning to a time when youngsters have an edge, if they care to. I mean, jeepers...how many generations have to go by before the kids start beating Novak, and Nadal, when he comes back? You said, way back on another thread, that Alcaraz might prove his mettle by beating Rafa at RG, and/or Novak at Wimbledon or the AO. Do you remember that? And I said he might not get the chance. Well, he did, with Novak at Wimbledon, and to the surprise of basically everyone, he took it. Like everyone, I'm salivating over what happens next.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,722
Reactions
14,892
Points
113
Charly it is then, easier and quicker to type, I am over callingl these youngsters kids reminds me of a billy goat :) I am not a fan of tatoo's though I will alow that small tatoo Charly has on the inside of his wrist, no more though.
Paire could do with shaving of that beard for starters, who knows what he has growing in that bush,to me that isnt stylish at all.
It's hard not to call them "kids," but I get your point. I'm sure they'd hate it. I don't have a tattoo, but I've long been fascinated by how and why people ink themselves. Since way before it was common. I don't mind it, though I have opinions, like you. Also, like you, I'd rather see Paire get rid of that mountain man beard, but beards, (and porn-staches) are a matter of taste. As are mullets #jjwolf. And head bands. :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 
  • Like
Reactions: MargaretMcAleer

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
Djoker splits himself like an elastic and never gets injured, so it’s not a hard and fast rule. But one thing Carlos has in common with Rafa is that he’s having to step up to the plate against a strong top dog while he himself is still greenhorn in development. This has an effect, the tension and wear and tear of a young body challenging the best at the biggest events. Novak developed slowly, which meant he had it easier in many ways than Rafa…
Nadal deserves credit for the way he handled Federer. He was precocious!! He annoyed Federer with his ability to keep the ball on court and his intensity/stamina. Djokovic looked sickly when he was an upstart, but once he solved his physical problems, he was able to go toe to toe with Nadal. That seemed to bother Nadal. What is impressive about Nadal is that he is still competing for slams in his mid 30’s, in spite of his super physicality. At this rate, Djokovic with a similar physicality, too could be winning slams at 39 or 40. I have a feeling that Carlito can change his game to reduce injuries early in his career. He is a fast learner. Even more so than Nadal. Carlito could dominate on faster surfaces, which means he could dominate everywhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,057
Reactions
7,353
Points
113
Nadal deserves credit for the way he handled Federer. He was precocious!! He annoyed Federer with his ability to keep the ball on court and his intensity/stamina. Djokovic looked sickly when he was an upstart, but once he solved his physical problems, he was able to go toe to toe with Nadal. That seemed to bother Nadal. What is impressive about Nadal is that he is still competing for slams in his mid 30’s, in spite of his super physicality. At this rate, Djokovic with a similar physicality, too could be winning slams at 39 or 40. I have a feeling that Carlito can change his game to reduce injuries early in his career. He is a fast learner. Even more so than Nadal. Carlito could dominate on faster surfaces, which means he could dominate everywhere.
Novak certainly put Rafa’s nose out of joint for a while. I think Rafa hoped he’d have a couple of easy seasons with the field, but he’s never got that. The other two did, but Rafa always had another of the 3 to contend with. But Novaks change in 2011, where he basically grew a pair, could be the instruction manual for a lot of todays perennial losers, because he was one, as well.

After winning Oz in 2008, he declined and we openly wondered was he never coming back. I remember him being up 2 sets in Muller in Paris in 2010 and dumping the next 3. Rafa was waiting in the semi. Likewise he went down tamely in Wimbledon that year, losing in straights to Berdych. He was always the most brittle and occasionally mentally fragile of the 3, but he rose to the occasion in 2011 in spectacular fashion, scarring Rafa in the process,

I think you’re right about Carlos and his ability on all surfaces. If he paces himself and continues to learn, he’s got a great few years ahead of him. The chasing field might have a target to aim at, in Chaz, but they also might feel intimidated by how he seems able to play everywhere, and the fact that he’s already achieving great things..
 

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
Novak certainly put Rafa’s nose out of joint for a while. I think Rafa hoped he’d have a couple of easy seasons with the field, but he’s never got that. The other two did, but Rafa always had another of the 3 to contend with. But Novaks change in 2011, where he basically grew a pair, could be the instruction manual for a lot of todays perennial losers, because he was one, as well.

After winning Oz in 2008, he declined and we openly wondered was he never coming back. I remember him being up 2 sets in Muller in Paris in 2010 and dumping the next 3. Rafa was waiting in the semi. Likewise he went down tamely in Wimbledon that year, losing in straights to Berdych. He was always the most brittle and occasionally mentally fragile of the 3, but he rose to the occasion in 2011 in spectacular fashion, scarring Rafa in the process,

I think you’re right about Carlos and his ability on all surfaces. If he paces himself and continues to learn, he’s got a great few years ahead of him. The chasing field might have a target to aim at, in Chaz, but they also might feel intimidated by how he seems able to play everywhere, and the fact that he’s already achieving great things..
Same argument could be made for Djokovic. The Serbian entered the fray when Roger and Rafa were dominating, and lost a significant number of matches to both. And Roger, in his twilight, had to deal with the other two who are at least 4 years younger than him. Until Carlito came, there hasn’t been anyone to challenge Nadal and Djokovic, especially on clay.
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,057
Reactions
7,353
Points
113
Same argument could be made for Djokovic. The Serbian entered the fray when Roger and Rafa were dominating, and lost a significant number of matches to both. And Roger, in his twilight, had to deal with the other two who are at least 4 years younger than him. Until Carlito came, there hasn’t been anyone to challenge Nadal and Djokovic, especially on clay.
Not really. I think the best of Rafa and Roger was spent facing each other in those early years. Rafa had had 6 seasons of full time battle with Roger before Novak entered the fray…
 

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
Not really. I think the best of Rafa and Roger was spent facing each other in those early years. Rafa had had 6 seasons of full time battle with Roger before Novak entered the fray…
That is basically what I said.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,722
Reactions
14,892
Points
113
... it could be that with better training and health regimes, they are holding onto their fitness longer, and as they mature mentally, they combine experience with fitness and reach new levels--or at least maintain levels--a bit older and longer.
Wasn't sure where to put this, but this is the most recent conversation about older players doing well. Today, Mannarino won his third title, in Newport. He's 35 and won all of his titles post-30. (Two on grass, one on HCs.) Obviously, this is not about "greatness," but about winning at the mid-top level. (I say "mid-top," because, let's face it, Top 50 in the world is pretty fantastic, in relative terms.) So I got curious.

Feliz Lopez won 2 titles before he turned 30, 5 after.
Stan Wawrinka won 8 titles before he turned 30, 8 since. However, he won 1 at 21, 1 at 24, 1 at 25, and 1 at 27, before he really went on a tear.

My point here, I guess, is that age and experience might play very well, in the smaller tournaments. For those who stay fit, experience on the tour goes a long way. And let's not pretend: for all players on the tour, a championship is a big deal. Also, it makes those players a bit dangerous, even if they won't contend for the bigger prizes. A couple of examples:

* Querrey d. Djokovic 2016 W: Sure, Novak looked ripe for the picking in that 2-day match, but I always felt it took a veteran to hold his nerve. (Querrey was 28.)

* Vinci d. S. Williams 2015 USO: Again, Serena was all nerves going for the CYGS, but I've always thought that Vinci, in retrospect, (who was 32) was just the wrong person for her to run into

Those are big upsets late in a Major at big moments, but I think you get the idea. We know that youngsters can be dangerous, but seasoned veterans can, too.
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,057
Reactions
7,353
Points
113
Wasn't sure where to put this, but this is the most recent conversation about older players doing well. Today, Mannarino won his third title, in Newport. He's 35 and won all of his titles post-30. (Two on grass, one on HCs.) Obviously, this is not about "greatness," but about winning at the mid-top level. (I say "mid-top," because, let's face it, Top 50 in the world is pretty fantastic, in relative terms.) So I got curious.

Feliz Lopez won 2 titles before he turned 30, 5 after.
Stan Wawrinka won 8 titles before he turned 30, 8 since. However, he won 1 at 21, 1 at 24, 1 at 25, and 1 at 27, before he really went on a tear.

My point here, I guess, is that age and experience might play very well, in the smaller tournaments. For those who stay fit, experience on the tour goes a long way. And let's not pretend: for all players on the tour, a championship is a big deal. Also, it makes those players a bit dangerous, even if they won't contend for the bigger prizes. A couple of examples:

* Querrey d. Djokovic 2016 W: Sure, Novak looked ripe for the picking in that 2-day match, but I always felt it took a veteran to hold his nerve. (Querrey was 28.)

* Vinci d. S. Williams 2015 USO: Again, Serena was all nerves going for the CYGS, but I've always thought that Vinci, in retrospect, (who was 32) was just the wrong person for her to run into

Those are big upsets late in a Major at big moments, but I think you get the idea. We know that youngsters can be dangerous, but seasoned veterans can, too.
These are hard to gauge, they’re very subjective. Vinci wasn’t experienced in that situation, and though she kept her nerves, I think she might equally have done the same if she was ten years younger. The key there was that a player with nothing to lose stayed calm against a great player who panicked. We’ve seen that with younger players too. I remember the 1984 Australian Open semi when Martina was stunned by 19 great old Helena Sukova. It was as shocking as - or more so - the 2015 USO semi.

These upsets are random and give nothing away other than the fact that they’re statistically possible, and that they happen. But speaking of Martina, she’s once said that the difference is that as you get older, you become more nervous. She repeated this on The Ladies Room podcast. I agree with this, and we’ve seen enough examples of old great players being dragged through rough experiences that were six inch putts to them in their pomp.

I’m not too sure there’s a good reason why players got better as they got older. Maybe they just weren’t big enough on court when they were younger, they didn’t have what Rafa had to complete for slams aged 19, Novak winning his first at 20, Roger at 21. It was more anomalous that players peaked later, to be honest, and that could simply tell us more about the deficiencies of players in the field, and not their qualities.

That they took so long. And were allowed to.

Holger, Carlos, Sinner represent the first real post-3 generation and as such, might not feel so restricted as all the oppressed shrinking violets who allowed the 3 to mosey through the draw like they were strolling around a giant shopping centre putting whatever they liked into their trolley, without having to pay for it..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425

PhiEaglesfan712

Major Winner
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Messages
1,064
Reactions
1,033
Points
113
These upsets are random and give nothing away other than the fact that they’re statistically possible, and that they happen. But speaking of Martina, she’s once said that the difference is that as you get older, you become more nervous. She repeated this on The Ladies Room podcast. I agree with this, and we’ve seen enough examples of old great players being dragged through rough experiences that were six inch putts to them in their pomp.
The 1994 Wimbledon final comes to mind. Martina would have never lost to a player like Conchita Martinez in her prime. Sukova was a better player than Conchita, she just ran into prime Evert, Martina, and Graf in her slam finals. Conchita just got lucky and took advantage of a period when Seles and Capriati were out and Graf was injured.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425 and Kieran

Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
3,684
Reactions
5,031
Points
113
Location
California, USA
The 1994 Wimbledon final comes to mind. Martina would have never lost to a player like Conchita Martinez in her prime. Sukova was a better player than Conchita, she just ran into prime Evert, Martina, and Graf in her slam finals. Conchita just got lucky and took advantage of a period when Seles and Capriati were out and Graf was injured.
How many times have we seen a first time Slam finalist concede the match before it begins? Just making it to the finals is mentally enough reward for them.

Conchita Martinez in that 1994 Wimbledon final was facing 9 time champ Martina in her natural turf, amd Conchita played exceptionally well. A consistent top 10 player who made two more Slam finals , IMO Conchita’s accomplishment was more than just being “lucky”. Ask the countless first time finalists who could not capitalize on their opportunity. (Robin Soderling was so “done” as soon as he stepped onto the court in that 08 French finals)

Helena was a great player who made 4 Slam finals without grabbing the brass ring and had a similar career to Conchita so that isn’t a knock on her.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,722
Reactions
14,892
Points
113
I'm not trying to imply that age doesn't matter...and I really wasn't trying to emphasize big upsets. I was just thinking about Mannarino's win yesterday, and reinforcing El Dude's point that the trade-off for the physical advantages of youth is experience and maturity, which I do think counts for something. But as I said even recently, I'm not with those folks who try to imply that age means nothing. It does.
 

Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
3,684
Reactions
5,031
Points
113
Location
California, USA
Someone needs to start a poll. Who will win major Tsitispas Rublev or Zverev? On the other hand does anyone really cares jajaja
The real question is what if two of them got to a final and played each other. ; ) Their chances go way up, LOL.

Rublev is such a hardworking consistent player i would be rooting for him, and anyone in the ATP can have *that* day, where they are in the zone and everything clicks.

Of the 3, I still think Tsitipas is the most explosive offense wise, so hedging my bet that Stefano is the most likely to win a Major *if* his opponent was one of the other two.
 

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
46,644
Reactions
30,734
Points
113
Someone needs to start a poll. Who will win major Tsitispas Rublev or Zverev? On the other hand does anyone really cares jajaja
Tsitisipas and Zverev are mental head cases, well we saw how much of a head case Zverev was when he lost the USO to Dom when he has 2 CH points, Rublev has worked on his mentality, with new coaching team, though he needs to employ more variety in his game, he does has the better hair out of Stefanos and Sasha :)
Probably Stef, but higher seeds would have to fall over in a GS for that to happen,
 

nehmeth

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
8,627
Reactions
1,677
Points
113
Location
State College, PA
Since this post was created during the post Wimbledon hype, Tommy Paul (Canada), Novak Djokovic (Cinci), Daniil Medvedev (USO), J Sinner (Beijing), and Grigor Dimitrov (Shanghai) have beaten Alcaraz.

This is an interesting point in Carlos’ career. He is no longer the hunter. He is expected to win every match, or at least he is the favorite in every match he plays. Huge expectations. This is the transition time of learning to deal with the new kind of pressure. It will be interesting to see how he navigates the round robin during the tour championship in Turin.

We can’t forget he’s a young man growing into all of this. I think he’s done well thus far. Today he had the same amount of winners as Dimitrov, but 5 more errors overall. The differences were that small. Looking forward to seeing the adjustments he makes and how he chooses to wean himself of the constant input from his coach... I think it will help him a lot if he does.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie and Fiero425