Will Nadal pass Federer?

brokenshoelace

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Zero arguments for Nadal being GOAT right now. He's clearly the second best player ever, and it's not debatable unless Novak has something to say about it in the future, but he definitely doesn't have a serious case for being the best ever yet. Maybe if he finishes with one fewer slam than Roger he'd have somewhat of a case (but I'd still go with Roger comfortably), but not right now.

I've always hated the "you can make a case" thing anyway. I mean, yeah, I guess you can make a case for Nadal being the GOAT right now, but it would be a very easy case to shoot down.
 

DarthFed

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Completely agree. I also don't think he'd have a good case if he finishes with one less than Roger either. H2H doesn't make up for a major, and I think it's also clear that Roger has the better resume outside of slams too(yes, way more time at #1 and 6 YEC's trumps a singles gold and more MS titles) and if anything that should offset the H2H at the very least.
 

mrzz

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Darth, Front and the rest of the Fed's fans this was forwarded to my inbox(actually from one of Darth's admirers)

Here is some gospel for what is left of your tennis souls....

El Dude.. you may enjoy reading this while having your evening bottle of spirits


Very interesting analysis at The Economist.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2017/09/draws-tennis?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/

———

THE RACE is on. Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer, the two men who dominated men’s tennis from 2005-10, have enjoyed a startling resurgence in 2017, splitting the year’s four grand-slam titles. Mr Federer picked up his wins at the Australian Open (where he defeated Mr Nadal in a five-set final) and Wimbledon, while his long-time rival paired his tenth French Open crown with this year’s US Open title. Mr Nadal cruised to the championship in New York, dropping only one set in his last four matches and polishing it off on September 10th with a routine win over South Africa’s Kevin Anderson, 6-3 6-3 6-4.

The latest trophy represents Mr Nadal’s 16th major title, second only to Mr Federer’s 19. Even as pundits have predicted for years that one or the other is finished as an elite player—especially Mr Federer, who turned 36 last month—there is no end in sight for this two-man race. The only other active player in range—Novak Djokovic, with 12—hasn’t claimed a victory since last year’s French Open, and is sitting out the second half of this season with an elbow injury. Andy Murray, the fourth member of the “Big Four” of men’s tennis, holds only three majors, and thanks to a hip injury, he too is missing much of the 2017 season.

....

Both Mr Federer and Mr Nadal have faced some easy draws and some hard ones—that’s the nature of a sport in which every tournament begins with an empty bracket and a lottery. But the lotteries—and the career trajectories of the strongest members of tennis’s supporting cast—have tended to benefit Mr Federer. The average grand-slam title run requires beating a set of opponents that the typical champion would defeat 23% of the time. Only eight of Mr Federer’s 19 major titles have come against competition more difficult than that. But 13 of Mr Nadal’s 16 championships have required him to confront harder-than-average obstacles. Suddenly, the difference between 19 and 16 isn’t as clear-cut as it initially seemed.

In fact, when we adjust those two numbers for difficulty, the King of Clay proves to be the king of tennis—period. On average, Mr Nadal’s titles are worth 1.18 majors apiece, while Mr Federer’s work out to 0.98 each. I’ll save you the multiplication: Mr Nadal comes out on top by the narrowest of margins, 18.8 to 18.7. The adjustment gives Mr Djokovic more credit as well, upping his total from 12 to 15.3 and swapping his fourth-place position on the traditional list with Pete Sampras’s third. It’s a promotion Mr Djokovic deserves, as all 12 of his major titles have required him to fight through tougher-than-average draws. Running the numbers also forces us to recognise just how hard Mr Wawrinka has needed to work to break the stranglehold his most fearsome peers have held at the grand slams. His three majors all rank in the top ten most difficult.

Even more than weeks atop the world rankings and Masters-level titles, difficulty-adjusted majors are unlikely to figure in the typical weekend argument about the greatest tennis player of all time. Yet for a single metric, it carries a heavy load, going to the heart of the case for Mr Nadal and cutting through much of the anecdotal carping that leads fans to discount one title or grant another extra credit. Each of the all-time greats has had their share of good and bad luck—little of it as good as Mr Nadal’s fortunes this past fortnight. As the sport’s greatest rivals continue their quest in 2018, it is important to remember that the Spaniard’s easy draw was an aberration, and that his career record in grand slams is every bit as good as Mr Federer’s.

The problem with this analysis is that it fails any possible stress test. In one phrase, the better the player, the worst numbers he gets here. One extreme example: One guy comes up in 2018 and simply beats everbody playing wonderful tennis for five straight years and win 20 slams. From the second major onward all his wins means zilch because he was "supposed" to win them anyway. So the guy retires with 20 majors, zero losses and this ranking system says he is #437643756435 in history. :clap:
 

Federberg

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The problem with this analysis is that it fails any possible stress test. In one phrase, the better the player, the worst numbers he gets here. One extreme example: One guy comes up in 2018 and simply beats everbody playing wonderful tennis for five straight years and win 20 slams. From the second major onward all his wins means zilch because he was "supposed" to win them anyway. So the guy retires with 20 majors, zero losses and this ranking system says he is #437643756435 in history. :clap:

Spot on! Elo's always had serious cross-era comparability issues anyway. We talk about this in chess all the time. If Elo was definitive none of us would be as interested in watching a Fischer - Kasparov show down as we all are
 

atttomole

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Nadal will most likely pass Federer because I expect Federe to pack it in at the end of 2018 because of his back problems. After Fed's departure, Nadal will play 2 or 3 more years, during which he will be able to win at least 2 FO's and possibly 2 AO's. At the end of his career, Nadal could be sitting on a triple career slam.
 

DarthFed

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I doubt Fed retires anytime soon with that asshole on his back. At least he shouldn't.
 

Moxie

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Completely agree. I also don't think he'd have a good case if he finishes with one less than Roger either. H2H doesn't make up for a major, and I think it's also clear that Roger has the better resume outside of slams too(yes, way more time at #1 and 6 YEC's trumps a singles gold and more MS titles) and if anything that should offset the H2H at the very least.
What if Rafa finishes with one or two more?
 

shawnbm

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There will never be a GOAT in tennis because it too contingent on so many different things. Does anybody really know how good Pancho would in his heyday would have been with today's strings and racquets? How about Lew Hoad? How about Ivan the Terrible in today's market? I gather he would be as intimidating as ever--and Pistol Pete would have beaten most anybody in today's game on grass or hards. That one I feel fairly confident about. Now, Roger and Rafa and Novak would have been able to battle fiercely with all of those guys. In the end, the top players are only the top of their epoch, but one can certainly carve out special niches for guys that stayed top fighters for long periods of time. Sampras, Rosewall, Laver, Gonzales, Connors, Federer and Nadal certainly are special in regards to how long they were so good.
 

Moxie

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Then he's greater than what would be an underachieving Fed. Let's hope it doesn't come to that B-)
:laugh: Excellent! It really is heartbreaking how much Roger has underachieved so far, even, in his career.
 

mrzz

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Speaking of what if scenarios, what if Nadal passes Federer on majors with 4 more RG's but Federer reverses the H2H?
 

Moxie

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Speaking of what if scenarios, what if Nadal passes Federer on majors with 4 more RG's but Federer reverses the H2H?
Then it would be ironic and hilarious to have the Fed fans spending the rest of eternity trying to reverse position on H2H without seeming to.
 

DarthFed

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:laugh: Excellent! It really is heartbreaking how much Roger has underachieved so far, even, in his career.

Career wise it's only if he allows Rafa to pass him. That should be obvious. Right now it's only USO that he's badly underachieved at.
 

shawnbm

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Who knows with these two? They continually prove their critics wrong and keep on winning majors and Masters Shields. They are just so good at the game.
 
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atttomole

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I doubt Fed retires anytime soon with that asshole on his back. At least he shouldn't.
I hope he doesn't retire, but I fear his back problems could severely limit him. He has had this problem for years, and it is unlikely to get better as he ages.
 

DarthFed

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I hope he doesn't retire, but I fear his back problems could severely limit him. He has had this problem for years, and it is unlikely to get better as he ages.

Yes but it's been more of a nagging issue that has popped up here and there for much of his career.

As long as he doesn't overplay and make matters worse when his back is bad it shouldn't be a career-ending issue.
 

Front242

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He's contracted to Stuttgart till 2019 and I expect him to retire in 2020 if his back improves, that being an Olympic year. Even in a wheelchair he'll be better than 90% of the tour.
 
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DarthFed

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I think some tend to underestimate his competitiveness and ambition. There's a world of difference between #1 and #2 all-time. That's why I laugh when I hear commentators wonder what he has left to play for. The answer to that question has been obvious for many years. He still has a legacy to protect after his stupidity this summer. If he had hit 20 at this USO he may have been able to consider retirement sooner. Now...I doubt it.
 
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Front242

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As Ricky Bobby would say: " shake and bake, baby! If you ain't first, you're last!"