Why Can't I Discuss Nadal's Amazing Results without...

[Moxie]

^ You're not letting this go, and you continue to be quite coy, without actually saying anything concrete. So, who is the Belgian that you're talking about, what did he say? I don't see how Nadal playing long matches makes him different from Djokovic or Federer, against whom he's played long matches. And who have played long matches against others.

And now you bring in Muster. You're seeming to have an agenda, so why don't you just spell it out, because I think some of us, at least JLLB and I have, on our side, made an argument against. And as I've said before, we don't go in for vague implications and slander about use of PEDs around here. If you've got a case, make it, and provide proof. If you're just passing along locker room talk, it doesn't have any place here.

you are not letting it go either, by going back and forth.

ok, drugs can't give you more talent, touch, court savvy and whatnot, but for sure it gives more physical endurance which is more required these days (how many times have we seen players' performance drop due to exhaustion?). of course nothing is concrete, sport is a big business.... rules are in place to help, though can be bent depending on circumstance. otherwise Agassi's case would've been publicised (wether or not the drugs were recreational).

nobody can point fingers at any particular player without evidence, but it shouldn't be seen as a crime discussing it.

Not a crime to discuss it, but cheap to make implications with out real reason, or against one, and not all. I was only pressing for substantiation.

 

[Kieran]

We also have to take on board why it's being discussed. It's another attempt to take the shine off Rafa's great achievements, and I thought this kind of thing would be beneath Luxilon, but obviously it isn't...

 

[Ricardo]

^ You're not letting this go, and you continue to be quite coy, without actually saying anything concrete. So, who is the Belgian that you're talking about, what did he say? I don't see how Nadal playing long matches makes him different from Djokovic or Federer, against whom he's played long matches. And who have played long matches against others.

And now you bring in Muster. You're seeming to have an agenda, so why don't you just spell it out, because I think some of us, at least JLLB and I have, on our side, made an argument against. And as I've said before, we don't go in for vague implications and slander about use of PEDs around here. If you've got a case, make it, and provide proof. If you're just passing along locker room talk, it doesn't have any place here.

you are not letting it go either, by going back and forth.

ok, drugs can't give you more talent, touch, court savvy and whatnot, but for sure it gives more physical endurance which is more required these days (how many times have we seen players' performance drop due to exhaustion?). of course nothing is concrete, sport is a big business.... rules are in place to help, though can be bent depending on circumstance. otherwise Agassi's case would've been publicised (wether or not the drugs were recreational).

nobody can point fingers at any particular player without evidence, but it shouldn't be seen as a crime discussing it.

Not a crime to discuss it, but cheap to make implications with out real reason, or against one, and not all. I was only pressing for substantiation.

you can't get substantiation, unless a player feels the urge to write a book about it aka Agassi.

what's 'interesting' to discuss is, if lets say one of the elites (and still in his prime) is to be exposed of juicing, what happens? strip all his titles? money? put him in jail? however i don't quite believe that ATP would do it one way or another, for its own survival.

 

[Moxie]

...someone in a group mentioning performance enhancing drugs or some unsavory comparison to Lance Armstrong? I grow weary of these discussions.

Anybody else encounter this?

To go back to your original, you asked if anyone could counter it, and we did. Does that satisfy you?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Did this really warrant its own thread?

 

[Luxilon Borg]

^ You're not letting this go, and you continue to be quite coy, without actually saying anything concrete. So, who is the Belgian that you're talking about, what did he say? I don't see how Nadal playing long matches makes him different from Djokovic or Federer, against whom he's played long matches. And who have played long matches against others.

And now you bring in Muster. You're seeming to have an agenda, so why don't you just spell it out, because I think some of us, at least JLLB and I have, on our side, made an argument against. And as I've said before, we don't go in for vague implications and slander about use of PEDs around here. If you've got a case, make it, and provide proof. If you're just passing along locker room talk, it doesn't have any place here.

You totally misread me. No coyness here.

Let me go on record: I DO NOT BELIEVE there is a widespread problem and I DO NOT BELIEVE the top players are juicing. There i said it.

BTW, it was Christophe Rochus who made bold accusations 3 years ago about "widespread" doping. It got some headlines and then faded a bit...chalked up to jealousy probably..simply google it.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

...someone in a group mentioning performance enhancing drugs or some unsavory comparison to Lance Armstrong? I grow weary of these discussions.

Anybody else encounter this?

To go back to your original, you asked if anyone could counter it, and we did. Does that satisfy you?

Actually, I asked if any one had encountered this type of talk..to be accurate.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

^ You're not letting this go, and you continue to be quite coy, without actually saying anything concrete. So, who is the Belgian that you're talking about, what did he say? I don't see how Nadal playing long matches makes him different from Djokovic or Federer, against whom he's played long matches. And who have played long matches against others.

And now you bring in Muster. You're seeming to have an agenda, so why don't you just spell it out, because I think some of us, at least JLLB and I have, on our side, made an argument against. And as I've said before, we don't go in for vague implications and slander about use of PEDs around here. If you've got a case, make it, and provide proof. If you're just passing along locker room talk, it doesn't have any place here.

you are not letting it go either, by going back and forth.

ok, drugs can't give you more talent, touch, court savvy and whatnot, but for sure it gives more physical endurance which is more required these days (how many times have we seen players' performance drop due to exhaustion?). of course nothing is concrete, sport is a big business.... rules are in place to help, though can be bent depending on circumstance. otherwise Agassi's case would've been publicised (wether or not the drugs were recreational).

nobody can point fingers at any particular player without evidence, but it shouldn't be seen as a crime discussing it.

Not a crime to discuss it, but cheap to make implications with out real reason, or against one, and not all. I was only pressing for substantiation.

you can't get substantiation, unless a player feels the urge to write a book about it aka Agassi.

what's 'interesting' to discuss is, if lets say one of the elites (and still in his prime) is to be exposed of juicing, what happens? strip all his titles? money? put him in jail? however i don't quite believe that ATP would do it one way or another, for its own survival.

Yeh, interesting questions, that I hope will never have to face. And I don't think we will.

Agassi's drug use was recreational and it clearly hurt not helped him.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

We also have to take on board why it's being discussed. It's another attempt to take the shine off Rafa's great achievements, and I thought this kind of thing would be beneath Luxilon, but obviously it isn't...

Incorrect. I am stand in awe of the man. I'm exhausted from lifting my jaw off the ground.

What my thread was REALLY about is OTHERS trying to take the shine off of his achievements.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

^ You're not letting this go, and you continue to be quite coy, without actually saying anything concrete. So, who is the Belgian that you're talking about, what did he say? I don't see how Nadal playing long matches makes him different from Djokovic or Federer, against whom he's played long matches. And who have played long matches against others.

And now you bring in Muster. You're seeming to have an agenda, so why don't you just spell it out, because I think some of us, at least JLLB and I have, on our side, made an argument against. And as I've said before, we don't go in for vague implications and slander about use of PEDs around here. If you've got a case, make it, and provide proof. If you're just passing along locker room talk, it doesn't have any place here.

you are not letting it go either, by going back and forth.

ok, drugs can't give you more talent, touch, court savvy and whatnot, but for sure it gives more physical endurance which is more required these days (how many times have we seen players' performance drop due to exhaustion?). of course nothing is concrete, sport is a big business.... rules are in place to help, though can be bent depending on circumstance. otherwise Agassi's case would've been publicised (wether or not the drugs were recreational).

nobody can point fingers at any particular player without evidence, but it shouldn't be seen as a crime discussing it.

Not a crime to discuss it, but cheap to make implications with out real reason, or against one, and not all. I was only pressing for substantiation.

I used innuendo concerning Rochus because I thought it was common knowledge. Now, at 5 foot 4, he could have used some juice...lol.

 

[Front242]

No, and I believe you're the first to mention it here recently. It's akin to trolling, as I see it.

No trolling intended..call me a cynic in life...but I'm an idealist in regards to tennis. I'm trying to understand why there is such a knee jerk reaction from folks.

No folks are discussing it here. And we really don't agree with it being brought up without merit. Unless you have a specific allegation with back-up, it is rather trolling to just "mention" it. Otherwise, what are you trying to say? (And, btw, I don't consider you a troll, of course.)

Here is what I meant. When I discuss Nadal's latest record shattering results at my club with a group players...someone always brings up juicing. Without any valid information to back it up.

Why is that?

Maybe it is based on jealousy, or maybe they just can't process his game as anything resembling mortal.

I was wonder out loud why people spew this kind of stuff.

Well, that crap has a life of its own on the internet, but it is really just jealousy, IMO. Tell your club friends this:

* If Rafa was juicing, to be bulked up and have great endurance, he would have started before he was 16-17. What are the chances that his family, whom he has always lived with, and his uncle, who has always been his coach, would have allowed that?

* If the above is true, then his body-type (look at the men on his paternal line) is his own, and his stamina is, as well.

* If he's "juiced" in recent years, for recovery, then why is there a marked difference in his stamina? No change in his body-type? No aggressive tendencies, and no bad skin?

Front will come back with some counter to this, but I stand by the notion that his family wouldn't allow it, bottom line.

Front couldn't give a $h1t about this thread to be honest. People will believe what they want to believe at the end of the day and it's all hearsay with no proof.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Moxie, with all due respect, you're greatly misinformed about PED's... I don't know how to put this nicely, but the post that Front quoted asks somewhat ignorant questions.

Regardless, this is a pretty stup...Ooops, I meant silly thread.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, with all due respect, you're greatly misinformed about PED's... I don't know how to put this nicely, but the post that Front quoted asks somewhat ignorant questions.

Perhaps so. I've done some reading, but not being that interested, my eyes eventually glaze over. But, hey, that never kept me from an opinion, some would say (and do.) :laydownlaughing

 

[Moxie]

We also have to take on board why it's being discussed. It's another attempt to take the shine off Rafa's great achievements, and I thought this kind of thing would be beneath Luxilon, but obviously it isn't...

Incorrect. I am stand in awe of the man. I'm exhausted from lifting my jaw off the ground.

What my thread was REALLY about is OTHERS trying to take the shine off of his achievements.

I'm willing to believe that you were "just asking." It's a very old trope as a way of dissing Rafa and a cheap ploy to tarnish his records. If you're hearing it around your club now, I'm surprised if you've never heard it before. (And you mentioned Rochus, so you have. Oh, and I looked it up…it was the brother, Christophe Rochus, btw.) Consequently, though, it got hackles up. (Mine, included.) Because dope testing results are not transparent, merely bringing it up tends to cast aspersions on an athlete. That's why, around here, we don't go in for doping speculation about players without substantiation. I realize that that's not what you were doing. But anyway, that's why you got so much brittle response.

 

[I.Haychew]

I have juiced in the past. I've tried store-bought orange juice, grapephruit juice, and grape juice. I also bought a juicer so I could concoct my own juices (which darn near caused me to puke). All that ephort and I still suck at tennis. Maybe I shoulda just had a V8?

 

[Iona16]

Some people just don't like to believe the extraordinary. That's just what he is though.

 

[I.Haychew]

...someone in a group mentioning performance enhancing drugs or some unsavory comparison to Lance Armstrong? I grow weary of these discussions.

Anybody else encounter this?

No, and I believe you're the first to mention it here recently. It's akin to trolling, as I see it.

No trolling intended..call me a cynic in life...but I'm an idealist in regards to tennis. I'm trying to
understand why there is such a knee jerk reaction from folks.

No folks are discussing it here. And we really don't agree with it being brought up without merit. Unless you have a specific allegation with back-up, it is rather trolling to just "mention" it. Otherwise, what are you trying to say? (And, btw, I don't consider you a troll, of course.)

Here is what I meant. When I discuss Nadal's latest record shattering results at my club with a group players...someone always brings up juicing. Without any valid information to back it up.


Why is that?

Maybe it is based on jealousy, or maybe they just can't process his game as anything resembling mortal.

I was wonder out loud why people spew this kind of stuff.

I think you should ask them and then report their reasons to us.

 

[I.Haychew]

No folks are discussing it here. And we really don't agree with it being brought up without merit. Unless you have a specific allegation with back-up, it is rather trolling to just "mention" it. Otherwise, what are you trying to say? (And, btw, I don't consider you a troll, of course.)

Here is what I meant. When I discuss Nadal's latest record shattering results at my club with a group players...someone always brings up juicing. Without any valid information to back it up.

Why is that?

Maybe it is based on jealousy, or maybe they just can't process his game as anything resembling mortal.

I was wonder out loud why people spew this kind of stuff.

Well, that crap has a life of its own on the internet, but it is really just jealousy, IMO. Tell your club friends this:

* If Rafa was juicing, to be bulked up and have great endurance, he would have started before he was 16-17. What are the chances that his family, whom he has always lived with, and his uncle, who has always been his coach, would have allowed that?

* If the above is true, then his body-type (look at the men on his paternal line) is his own, and his stamina is, as well.

* If he's "juiced" in recent years, for recovery, then why is there a marked difference in his stamina? No change in his body-type? No aggressive tendencies, and no bad skin?

Front will come back with some counter to this, but I stand by the notion that his family wouldn't allow it, bottom line.

I personally agree.

But I will say that sometimes in life you are surprised by what people will do to succeed.

JLLB put it more eloquently and weirdly, in his own unique way, but which speaks to how unfair the question is.

I like this one: 11. drugz iz for mugz (innit).

And if you feel suspicious, then what accounts for Djokovic's stunning 2011?

Egg(s)!!! Just ask Rocky Balboa. It worked phor him!

 

[Luxilon Borg]

We also have to take on board why it's being discussed. It's another attempt to take the shine off Rafa's great achievements, and I thought this kind of thing would be beneath Luxilon, but obviously it isn't...

Incorrect. I am stand in awe of the man. I'm exhausted from lifting my jaw off the ground.

What my thread was REALLY about is OTHERS trying to take the shine off of his achievements.

I'm willing to believe that you were "just asking." It's a very old trope as a way of dissing Rafa and a cheap ploy to tarnish his records. If you're hearing it around your club now, I'm surprised if you've never heard it before. (And you mentioned Rochus, so you have. Oh, and I looked it up…it was the brother, Christophe Rochus, btw.) Consequently, though, it got hackles up. (Mine, included.) Because dope testing results are not transparent, merely bringing it up tends to cast aspersions on an athlete. That's why, around here, we don't go in for doping speculation about players without substantiation. I realize that that's not what you were doing. But anyway, that's why you got so much brittle response.

Thanks for your response. As I said, and I will say it again, Nadal is the sickest athlete I have seen play the game. I read his book to get an insight. The sport is. 24/7 52 week a year obsession for him.

Yeh, I do think it is brought up to tarnish his record. When ever he out injured, I would have one pro tell me he was "cycling", and I would ask how the hello he would know...and I would hear a list of circumstantial things with no proof.

Btw, another other clown tried to make headlines earlier this year by claiming there is no way Rafa could come back from 7 months off and win 10 tournaments or whatever it was in 2013 without drugs, and he had the nerve to implicate Ferrer, saying he even used to be a smoker. This idiot was a no name challenger player but some press outlets licked it up.

The man is a phenom, and some can't accept it. I saw him as a chubby faced 16 old clinging to Moya's shirt tails, but I heard the buzz. A year later he was a specimen like nothing I had seen before, sharing a practice court with 3 other players, as was the custom for the lower tier. His body had matured and I just could not believe how he was murdering the ball. The rest is history. FYI...I hated the pirate pants and the sleeveless....thank god he came to his senses...lol.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Some people just don't like to believe the extraordinary. That's just what he is though.

Agree.