Who will de-throne Novak?

El Dude

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Right now Novak seems invincible. Consider that Roger turns 34 in a few months, Rafa is struggling immensely and looking older than Roger, and Andy is...well, Andy. Consider that the next generation--which includes Kei Nishikori, Grigor Dimitrov, and Milos Raonic--is entering their mid-20s and not showing more than second tier talent level. But also consider that Novak (and Andy) turns 28 this year, and will eventually start to decline - probably in the next two or three years.

So let's fast forward. We can assume, or at least speculate elsewhere, that Novak is King of the Mountain for the next two or three years, with his left-overs going to Andy and a few others (barring a Rafa resurrection, but again - speculate elsewhere). Let's talk about when Novak's reign starts to be challenged. Who do you think it will be? And when?

So there are several related questions to consider:

1. When will Novak start to decline?
2. Who will challenge him for Slams and other big tournaments, and eventually the #1 ranking?
3. Will his reign end because he's old, or because of the greatness of the challenger(s) or a combination of both?

Of course this is all speculation, but let's have at it.

A few thoughts to get us started. As I've said before, in my "generational theory," tennis generations last roughly five years and can best be defined by birth years ending on a 9 and a 4. So for instance, Rafa, Novak and Andy are in the 1984-88 generation; Nishikori, Raonic, and Dimitrov are in the 1989-93 generation - a generation which begins with Nishikori (89) and ends with Jiri Vesely and Dominic Thiem (both 1993). Then we have the youngest generation on tour, the 1994-98 generation, which begins with Lucas Pouille (94), and includes Nick Kyrgios (95), Borna Coric, Hyeon Chung, Thanasi Kokkinakis, and Jared Donaldson (all 96), Alex Zverev (97) and ends with Stefan Kozlov and Francis Tiafoe (both 98).

Now consider that players seem to be peaking a bit later these days. Novak Djokovic was in the top 10 by the time he was around 20, but didn't reach his peak until he was 23-24 in 2011. Andy's trajectory was about a year later. In this regard, Nadal is a bit of an outlier, or a throw-back to an earlier era. We can also look at players like Tomas Berdych, David Ferrer, and Stanislas Wawrinka who are having their best years in their late 20s, even early 30s. So we could look at a player like Grigor Dimitrov, who just turned 24, and hope that he can get a bit better, but probably not much more.

Now let's look at Novak's (and Andy's) ages going forward, with their birthdays in May and thus mid-season - these are represented in parentheses in bold. Then let's look at the ages of various players over those years:

2015 (27-28): Nishikori (25-26), Raonic (24-25), Dimitrov (23-24), Vesely/Thiem (21-22), Kyrgios (19-20), Coric/Chung/Kokkinakis (18-19), Zverev (17-18), Kozlov/Tiafoe (16-17).
2016 (28-29): Nishikori (26-27), Raonic (25-26), Dimitrov (24-25), Vesely/Thiem (22-23), Kyrgios (20-21), Coric/Chung/Kokkinakis (19-20), Zverev (18-19), Kozlov/Tiafoe (17-18).
2017 (29-30): Nishikori (27-28), Raonic (26-27), Dimitrov (25-26), Vesely/Thiem (23-24), Kyrgios (21-22), Coric/Chung/Kokkinakis (20-21), Zverev (19-20), Kozlov/Tiafoe (18-19).
2018 (30-31): Nishikori (28-29), Raonic (27-28), Dimitrov (26-27), Vesely/Thiem (24-25), Kyrgios (22-23), Coric/Chung/Kokkinakis (21-22), Zverev (20-21), Kozlov/Tiafoe (19-20).
2019 (31-32): Nishikori (29-30), Raonic (28-29), Dimitrov (27-28), Vesely/Thiem (25-26), Kyrgios (23-24), Coric/Chung/Kokkinakis (22-23), Zverev (21-22), Kozlov/Tiafoe (20-21).

(If this looks familiar it is because I wrote up something similar a few months back).

Anyhow, it is interesting to line up the ages to get a sense of how old different players will be relative to each other. We don't know how Andy and Novak will age, as they haven't shown any signs of decline yet, and we don' know how many of the above players will develop or what their peak will be like (or when), but this gives us something to look at.

I think things could start getting interesting in 2017, when Novak and Andy turn 30 and you have Nishikori, Raonic, and Dimitrov "ripe on the vine" - past the point of hungry into starvation (assuming they haven't won anything big). A 23-year old Grigor Dimitrov looks anemic versus a 27-year old Novak Djokovic, but how will it look when Grigor is 26 and Novak 30? So all three, and perhaps one or two others of their generation, could be perpetual dark-horse candidates to upset the top guys. But then you have players like Kyrgios, Coric, and others coming more fully into their own.

Just looking at that chart above, my guess is that the Reign of Novak will continue largely unchallenged through 2016, but the cracks will start showing in 2017. By the time we get to 2018, we'll be seeing a regime change with the possible emergence of a new superstar or two that year. Certainly by 2019, Novak is unlikely to remain the top-dog. But I suspect he'll hang around the top 5 for another year or three, not unlike Roger once he hit his 30s.

Of course the bottom line is this: who knows? But what do you think?
 

nehmeth

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Really? He hasn't even finished the year yet. You're like one of those storm fronts blowing through the midwest. ;) He's never going to decline. He will get the patent on the egg passed and reign forever. :p

Seriously though, as early as the end of next year, but I hope that he has a long ride at the top before any serious dips.
 

El Dude

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Funny, nehmeth. But go further - not only when, but who? And how do you, one of his most ardent fans, think it will happen?

And then go back to enjoying this wonderful season from Novak.
 

nehmeth

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El Dude said:
Funny, nehmeth. But go further - not only when, but who? And how do you, one of his most ardent fans, think it will happen?

And then go back to enjoying this wonderful season from Novak.

Thanks Dude.

If Bjorkman is able to keep Andy on this path of aggression and help him over the mental hump of being beaten by Novak again and again, I think he's the guy who will threaten to take away the #1 seed.

The younger group?? I don't think much of Raonic. I like Nishikori, but his diminutive size has its drawbacks. Dimitrov is lacking fortitude. And Kyrgios is a talented idiot. I like Thiem. But as of yet I have no real guess, let alone an informed opinion, to really say.
 

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Unless Nadal juices up the strength (no pun intended), and has another crazy year, or Federer rediscovers his forehand, or whatever, I just don't see who can take it away from him, even for a little while. Dimitrov? HA ha ha...
It will take him to decline rapidly and just play like crap, which, as much as I'd like to speed up, isn't happening any time soon. He has such a good serve and a return combo, that saves him quite a lot of energy. The only one that comes close to him in that department is probably Fedex who has a weaker return, but a better serve.
 

Federberg

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As unlikely as I think it is. The most realistic next number 1 (who hasn't been number 1 before) is Andy Murray. It would surprise me if he never gets to that ranking. Why not him next? I believe he's already 2nd in the race and can acquire a serious number of points for the rest of this year
 

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federberg said:
As unlikely as I think it is. The most realistic next number 1 (who hasn't been number 1 before) is Andy Murray. It would surprise me if he never gets to that ranking. Why not him next? I believe he's already 2nd in the race and can acquire a serious number of points for the rest of this year

Sometimes it's just not in the cards to be #1! There have been so many pretenders who got close, but "no cigar;" Stich, Haas, Chang, Ivanisevic, & Korda OTTH! If Murray plays like he did in Madrid for the rest of his career, I'll agree he might sneak into the #1 slot, but it's not likely with the way Nole's killing it! :angel: :dodgy:
 

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Right now, the only realistic answer is Murray, and even that isn't too realistic. So unless Nadal has another 2013 in him, which is highly doubtful, there doesn't seem to be anyone on the horizon.
 

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No, he is not invincible. It's funny that sometimes people go overboard regarding tennis players and their capabilities. It goes both ways for fans and non fans of any particular player.

Nole recently, in one of his pressers, said that he feels he has good 4-5 years in him or his legs as he put it. He can't influence competition, he can try and stay as healthy as possible, train hard and try to play his best in the most important tournaments. There are some things that are in his control and some that are not. I just hope he doesn't get injured from playing as much tennis as he has in his life. My guess is that as the years go he will skip some tournaments to save him for some others just as he did with Madrid this year. I don't mind if he can pick and chose which tournaments to play, sort of like Fed can. Every player wants to prolong his/her career, it is only natural.

The most likely candidate for dethroning him in the near future would be Andy. The tour is so physical that poor young tennis players rarely stand a chance against these top notch professionals and they are considered as lacking in talent, which is false IMO. The grind of the tour takes a toll, even on best of them.
 

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Billie said:
No, he is not invincible. It's funny that sometimes people go overboard regarding tennis players and their capabilities. It goes both ways for fans and non fans of any particular player.

Nole recently, in one of his pressers, said that he feels he has good 4-5 years in him or his legs as he put it. He can't influence competition, he can try and stay as healthy as possible, train hard and try to play his best in the most important tournaments. There are some things that are in his control and some that are not. I just hope he doesn't get injured from playing as much tennis as he has in his life. My guess is that as the years go he will skip some tournaments to save him for some others just as he did with Madrid this year. I don't mind if he can pick and chose which tournaments to play, sort of like Fed can. Every player wants to prolong his/her career, it is only natural.

The most likely candidate for dethroning him in the near future would be Andy. The tour is so physical that poor young tennis players rarely stand a chance against these top notch professionals and they are considered as lacking in talent, which is false IMO. The grind of the tour takes a toll, even on best of them.

If Andy does luck into the top position, I don't think it'll last long due to the way he's played and practiced the last several years! He will start to break down more frequently like Rafa who also isn't long for this sport! You just can't get into 3,4, & 5 set battles with nobodies, wildcards, qualifiers, and "never-weres!" When Nole lost middle sets this past week in Rome, you always had the feeling he was totally in control and was probably just looking for extra practice after 3 weeks of inactivity since MC! Well experienced players know, you can choreograph your matches; esp. if you know you can beat the person! I played my dentist back in the 2nd round of a club tourney and worked the score so he wouldn't be embarrassed by a 19 y.o.! I could have smoked him 2 and 2, but what sense would that make? He had a very respectable 5-7, 5-7 on the draw so no one's feelings would be hurt and I wouldn't have to worry about him yacking the wrong tooth later! :p :angel: :dodgy:
 

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There is movie named "The three kings". They are still on the spot, not letting throne gone away for some time.

And for sure their period is for tennis history, as period of worst nightmare...for other tennis players.
 

DarthFed

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Novak will be on the decline by the middle of next year if not sooner. As for who will take advantage...maybe Murray or Nadal for a short bit. As for the next dominant #1 who rules for a long time after Nole...no clue.
 

Billie

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:laydownlaughing Smart guy, Fiero. You don't want to tick your dentist off.:clap

When everything ends well for Nole, then I can relax and say: oh good, it didn't hurt him playing 2.5 - 3 hours against Bellucci or Almagro or whomever. But sometimes Nole also gets into deciding sets and gets involved in physical and gruelling matches. Does he like it? I doubt it, but obviously he can't avoid it for one reason or the other. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of intensity off to allow your opponent to get back into a match and then "he makes his life on court more difficult" as he puts it.

I hope he keeps improving his net game and finds ways to shorten the points. As much as I like those physical exchanges, I know they are not good for anybody's body, so I don't wish that for Nole. Sometimes I get tired from watching them hit the heck out of that yellow ball.:snicker Luckily he hasn't had too many of those this year, hopefully it continues.:D
 

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DarthFed said:
Novak will be on the decline by the middle of next year if not sooner. As for who will take advantage...maybe Murray or Nadal for a short bit. As for the next dominant #1 who rules for a long time after Nole...no clue.

Do you mean physically or mentally? I think he is physically OK, his body is almost perfect for this sport (this according to the person who knows best, his physio Miljan Amanovic), barring some accident (God forbid). My main concern for Nole is actually his mental state. If he wins FO this year, I can see him letting up a little bit. I have to admit that Nole in this aspect is not in the same category as Rafa and Fed. He still sometimes (rarely now, but it happens) likes to go out in the middle of a tournament, stay up till late, have fun. I can't imagine Fed or Rafa doing it.

He is in Milan today and will be releasing his gluten free food products (no details on this yet), but that might keep him in the game longer, and if he has to chase some tournaments.;)
 

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Billie said:
:laydownlaughing Smart guy, Fiero. You don't want to tick your dentist off.:clap

When everything ends well for Nole, then I can relax and say: oh good, it didn't hurt him playing 2.5 - 3 hours against Bellucci or Almagro or whomever. But sometimes Nole also gets into deciding sets and gets involved in physical and gruelling matches. Does he like it? I doubt it, but obviously he can't avoid it for one reason or the other. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of intensity off to allow your opponent to get back into a match and then "he makes his life on court more difficult" as he puts it.

I hope he keeps improving his net game and finds ways to shorten the points. As much as I like those physical exchanges, I know they are not good for anybody's body, so I don't wish that for Nole. Sometimes I get tired from watching them hit the heck out of that yellow ball.:snicker Luckily he hasn't had too many of those this year, hopefully it continues.:D

That's my biggest problem watching matches these days; the interminable lengthy rallies going 22 to 36 strokes! It's so mean of us demanding they get back "on the line" to start the next point when they're pret' ne'r having a heart attack! Loved how Stan and Roger were really moving along quickly in all departments in their semi; no extended toweling off and challenging of calls! :clap :angel::dodgy: :popcorn
 

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DarthFed said:
Novak will be on the decline by the middle of next year if not sooner. As for who will take advantage...maybe Murray or Nadal for a short bit. As for the next dominant #1 who rules for a long time after Nole...no clue.

At which point Darth will be prepared to take nole out behind the tennis frontier barn and shoot him :snicker
 

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I generally buy El Dude's formulation. Dominant Novak through next year (barring injury), decline beginning in 2017, but could remain dominant #1 due to lack of strong competition.

The next #1 is either Murray (the only real possibility, barring a major Rafa turn around) or someone currently under the age of 22.
 

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Riotbeard said:
DarthFed said:
Novak will be on the decline by the middle of next year if not sooner. As for who will take advantage...maybe Murray or Nadal for a short bit. As for the next dominant #1 who rules for a long time after Nole...no clue.

At which point Darth will be prepared to take nole out behind the tennis frontier barn and shoot him :snicker

He'll shoot him if he gets within a couple of Fed. ;)
 

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Riotbeard said:
DarthFed said:
Novak will be on the decline by the middle of next year if not sooner. As for who will take advantage...maybe Murray or Nadal for a short bit. As for the next dominant #1 who rules for a long time after Nole...no clue.

At which point Darth will be prepared to take nole out behind the tennis frontier barn and shoot him :snicker

If he's ready, why are Rafa and Roger still hoofin' around? They're beat up glue products; esp. Rafa! lol! :p :ras:
 

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Fiero425 said:
Riotbeard said:
DarthFed said:
Novak will be on the decline by the middle of next year if not sooner. As for who will take advantage...maybe Murray or Nadal for a short bit. As for the next dominant #1 who rules for a long time after Nole...no clue.

At which point Darth will be prepared to take nole out behind the tennis frontier barn and shoot him :snicker

If he's ready, why are Rafa and Roger still hoofin' around? They're beat up glue products; esp. Rafa! lol! :p :ras:

Well, I think Darth has been calling for Fed's retirement out of being a shadow of his former self for years. I would also guess that Darth would have been ok with Rafa retiring around 2005.