Who hurts you more?

[Riotbeard]

Reasonable folks can disagree, but from day one, I had really high hopes for Almagro. One of the best backhands in the business, always top 5 in every positive service category, much improved forehand, but the guy just could never put it together...mentally, tactically, strategically...Was it the wrong choice of coaches? Something else...? I am not sure, but to me , he is a huge disappointment. I mean, give Magro David's mentality, he would be right up there with the best of them.

Very underrated player. Massive serve too. His transition and net games are pretty terrible, other than that his tennis pretty rock solid.

 

[herios]

Don't forget Tsonga pummelling Rafa in the SFs of the 2008 Australian Open - the only time he made a Slam final, losing to Novak in his first win.

One difference between Jo and Tomas is that Jo's pro career got going later due to injuries in his first couple years. He didn't really get going until 2007, the year he turned 22. Tomas, on the other hand, was on tour a 17-18 and won a Masters at the tender age of 20, although then he seemed to stall for a few years before entering the top 10 for good in 2010.

Anyhow, their overall records are remarkably similar. Both made it to one Slam Final which they lost, Jo to Novak and Tomas to Rafa. Both made it to several Slam SFs and a bunch of QFs. Both one a single Masters. Compare:

SLAMS (Win/Final/SF/QF)
Berdych: 0/1/3/6
Tsonga: 0/1/4/5

ATP World Tour Finals: (W/F/RR)
Berdych: 0/0/1/3
Tsonga: 0/1/0/2

Masters (Win/Final/SF/QF)
Berdych: 1/2/12/15
Tsonga: 1/1/4/13

ATP 500 wins:
Berdych: 3
Tsonga: 1

ATP 250 wins:
Berdych: 5
Tsonga: 8

Overall I really couldn't say whose had a better career - they are so similar.

Add another parameter which underlines their similarity, best career ranking for both is 5.

 

[herios]

^ Well we still have the US Open and he's had his best slam result to date with a semi final at RG this year so that's why I still think he has much to prove and his best results have only just begun this year, plus he's dedicated himself more to tennis this season and it shows. Still wish he'd done it years ago though which is why I'm a bit annoyed but better late than never.

Gulbis's best is yet to come. A few years ago he was unstable in the top 100, now he is unstable in the top 20. Next will be for him, unstable in the top 10.
Do not forget, for many non elite players the peak is around 28y. He will be one of those. 3 more years to grow mentally.

 

[TennisFanatic7]

Tsonga. I like to see upsets whenever they happen but Jo is such a likeable bloke that I care a little bit more about him getting it done.

I don't particularly care for Berdych, Gulbis or Cilic beyond the fact that it's nice to see somebody rock the boat when these guys do so.

Ferrer I wouldn't call a "let down" because he is, generally, not really that capable and he manages to do about what is expected of him. He did upset me a bit though when he admitted to giving up against Nadal at Roland Garros this year because that's not acceptable.

 

[DarthFed]

I'd say JWT of those listed. He has the physical tools to make him dangerous to anyone but that's all he is...dangerous. He is not great and not someone you would have ever picked to even make a GS semi (granted he made 4 semis and 1 final) let alone win a title.

Berd is hot and cold, he definitely could've done better but he got it together a little bit mentally the past 4-5 years. Bottom line is without decent movement it is tough sledding at the top. That kills him against guys like Nole and Rafa and prime Fed. Tsonga on the other hand had decent enough movement to be a big time player with that serve and forehand. The backhand, ROS and shot selection are just flat out bad and that's why he never did better.

Also I still hold out hope for Gulbis to develop a bit. He won't win a slam, prob won't make a final but he is someone that should be top 10 if he puts it together. He definitely is one of the big underachievers of the past 5-10 years IMO.

 

[El Dude]

On a slightly related note, one of the most disappointing careers of recent years is Mario Ancic. He had the Wimbledon semifinal at age 20 in 2004 and a few more Slam quarterfinals after that, even finishing 2006 at #9, but mono and injuries destroyed his career. He didn't look like a Slam champion, but he probably would have hung around in the top ten. Hard to believe he's only 30.

 

[DarthFed]

^ Yea he doesn't quite fit in with the other guys whose careers weren't derailed by injury (Berd, Tsonga, Almagro and Gulbis). Ancic is more of the "what if" career and sadly I think the same will end up being true for DP. Though DP was undoubtedly the bigger talent and showed it by winning a slam. I doubt Ancic was going to win a slam, only realistic hope was Wimbledon and he wasn't getting past Roger and prob not vs. Rafa and a couple others.

 

[Riotbeard]

^ Yea he doesn't quite fit in with the other guys whose careers weren't derailed by injury (Berd, Tsonga, Almagro and Gulbis). Ancic is more of the "what if" career and sadly I think the same will end up being true for DP. Though DP was undoubtedly the bigger talent and showed it by winning a slam. I doubt Ancic was going to win a slam, only realistic hope was Wimbledon and he wasn't getting past Roger and prob not vs. Rafa and a couple others.

A lot for DP depends on the next year coming back from this injury. If can get himself back to 5-6, in 6 or 8 months, than he'll have 2-3 years of chances.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

we will see where Tsonga is at in the next few weeks..he has a free run in rank terms as he was injured this time last year.

apart from that..you never know, he might actually win a cincy/Canada masters.

 

[Moxie]

Nalbandian annoyed me, because i really liked him. Novak annoys me, haha.

Fat Dave was #2 on my list.

Novak is #1. For as much as he's already accomplished it may sound like sour grapes, but I have my reasons:

- the inordinate amount of time it took him to finally punch through the Fedal duopoly

- choosing Todd Martin to coach him and the lost year trying to recover some semblance of a serve

- (until recently) his overheads... and approach shots.... and net play. :nono

- he seems to write a novel in a very large percentage of his matches - with enough highs and lows to have coined the term, "Nolecoaster".

If I didn't like him for so much more than just his tennis, I doubt very much I could have remained a fan.

Honorable Mention: Potito Starace who spent a career without ever winning an ATP championship in singles

It really DOES sound like sour grapes, tbh. I know you and RB are kind of kidding, but the guy has accomplished so much. Yet, you won't be happy with less than the crazy bling accumulation of Roger and Rafa, right? I know it hasn't been easy to ride the Nolecoaster, but the dizzying heights have to out-weigh the troughs, which are not that low. I don't think he fits in this conversation.

However, I will give you Starace.

 

[Riotbeard]

It really DOES sound like sour grapes, tbh. I know you and RB are kind of kidding, but the guy has accomplished so much. Yet, you won't be happy with less than the crazy bling accumulation of Roger and Rafa, right? I know it hasn't been easy to ride the Nolecoaster, but the dizzying heights have to out-weigh the troughs, which are not that low. I don't think he fits in this conversation.

However, I will give you Starace.

I can't speak for nehmeth, but I could care less that Novak isn't going to have as many trophies as rafa and roger. Nice humble brag for your guys though

The question is who hurts you more, no one really gives me more fits than Novak, it is what is. I at least wasn't trying to say that it's because he hasn't fulfilled his potential, but sometimes his matches frustrate me, especially the last couple slam finals before wimbledon, when he didn't play up to the level he is capable of. I don't mind him losing, playing well. 2010 USO is a good example of a match I enjoy watching. He fought hard and played pretty well. Rafa was too good.

 

[Moxie]

^ Yea he doesn't quite fit in with the other guys whose careers weren't derailed by injury (Berd, Tsonga, Almagro and Gulbis). Ancic is more of the "what if" career and sadly I think the same will end up being true for DP. Though DP was undoubtedly the bigger talent and showed it by winning a slam. I doubt Ancic was going to win a slam, only realistic hope was Wimbledon and he wasn't getting past Roger and prob not vs. Rafa and a couple others.

A lot for DP depends on the next year coming back from this injury. If can get himself back to 5-6, in 6 or 8 months, than he'll have 2-3 years of chances.

Juan Martin has to be the biggest question mark in tennis, right now. Can he fulfill a somewhat proven potential, or will he be a tragic loss to injury? Players like Dimitrov and Gulbis are starting to make a mark, along with some of the teenagers. By virtue of the poll, I would say most posters are disappointed by Tsonga, overall. But what will become of Del Potro? He might win 1-2 more Slams, or he might just be a dangerous floater until he retires. To me, he's the great mystery.

 

[Riotbeard]

To be fair, I guess nehmeth does have some sour grapes, but I don't really care about that stuff.

 

[Moxie]

It really DOES sound like sour grapes, tbh. I know you and RB are kind of kidding, but the guy has accomplished so much. Yet, you won't be happy with less than the crazy bling accumulation of Roger and Rafa, right? I know it hasn't been easy to ride the Nolecoaster, but the dizzying heights have to out-weigh the troughs, which are not that low. I don't think he fits in this conversation.

However, I will give you Starace.

I can't speak for nehmeth, but I could care less that Novak isn't going to have as many trophies as rafa and roger. Nice humble brag for your guys though

The question is who hurts you more, no one really gives me more fits than Novak, it is what is. I at least wasn't trying to say that it's because he hasn't fulfilled his potential, but sometimes his matches frustrate me, especially the last couple slam finals before wimbledon, when he didn't play up to the level he is capable of. I don't mind him losing, playing well. 2010 USO is a good example of a match I enjoy watching. He fought hard and played pretty well. Rafa was too good.

I was addressing nehmeth about the Slam accumulation. And it's not so much a brag as a nod to reality. How many guys in one era can win 10+ Slams? I guess we shall see. (And perhaps that wasn't his point about frustration, or yours.) You explain well your frustration, which I guess for a player and a fan is 'not playing to potential.' However, 'potential,' in my opinion, is a moving target. Certainly Rafa can go up and down, and even Roger, who's had a clearer career arc, can still surprise his most cynical fans. What they 'can' do, and what they 'actually' do don't always jibe. But it's not like Djokovic has seriously disappointed, certainly not on the level of Tsonga, which is what this thread is really about, I thought.

 

[nehmeth]

The question is who hurts you more, no one really gives me more fits than Novak, it is what is. I wasn't trying to say that it's because he hasn't fulfilled his potential, but sometimes his matches frustrate me, especially the last couple slam finals before wimbledon, when he didn't play up to the level he is capable of.

This is the point exactly. Thanks RB. :clap

 

[Moxie]

The question is who hurts you more, no one really gives me more fits than Novak, it is what is. I wasn't trying to say that it's because he hasn't fulfilled his potential, but sometimes his matches frustrate me, especially the last couple slam finals before wimbledon, when he didn't play up to the level he is capable of.

This is the point exactly. Thanks RB. :clap

Alright, I hear you boys, though it does seem a bit petulant, and unappreciative. uzzled

 

[Billie]

Considering what Nole had to go through to get to this level and playing in the time of Fedals, I am more than proud of what he has achieved. I guess in 2010 on the old, old board there were not a lot of people who could predict that he would win multiple slams ( 2 Wimbledon titles among them ). Then there was a famous year of 2011 where everything clicked for him, he was happy, he was healthy for most of the year, he achieved some of his biggest goals. We really couldn't expect that to happen every year, could we? But he is not done by a long shot. He already said that he wants his child to see him play and remember it. I admire his tenacity, his consistency, his graciousness on and off the court. It's true, he gets tired sometimes, he is bothered by negative crowds (but they have to really be hostile to impact him, like in Wimbledon final 2013), he gets hampered by health issues, but despite all that I think he has done quite well.

There is nobody who hurts me. All players for the most part achieve what they are capable of, in the long run, unless an unfortunate injury ruins their natural progress. This is sport after all, I am a fan, a spectator, players play for their glory and money, I just try to enjoy the ride. I prefer to concentrate on what Nole has achieved and be proud and happy about that, not what he could have or didn't. But I guess that is my life philosophy as well so no wonder I feel the same about sports.

 

[TennisFanatic7]

If Djokovic is coming into this argument then Murray must be allowed in too given how good a player he was for so long without making a breakthrough in a major.

 

[Riotbeard]

The question is who hurts you more, no one really gives me more fits than Novak, it is what is. I wasn't trying to say that it's because he hasn't fulfilled his potential, but sometimes his matches frustrate me, especially the last couple slam finals before wimbledon, when he didn't play up to the level he is capable of.

This is the point exactly. Thanks RB. :clap

Alright, I hear you boys, though it does seem a bit petulant, and unappreciative. uzzled

It could be or it could be an honest statement of who I am most emotionally invested in, and thus when he doesn't play well, it is the most frustrating. I don't blame novak, at least not inordinately. I understand it's normal for even great players to have some let downs, but when novak has a letdown it bothers me far more than player I don't care about. Mardy Fish gave me fits for much the same reason, even though I think the ranking of 7 or 8 was close to his ceiling, although it would have been nice if he had pulled out one of those masters, but he was always up against greats.

DelPo losing the 2013 Indian Wells final really upset me. My point is I don't care if Berdych, tsonga, et al. are underachievers, because I am not a fan of them.

 

[Billie]

Riot, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. People are always vested in one person or another, it is normal that our player gives us grief more than any other. I guess that was the point of the thread.

Who knows what Kieran had in mind when creating this topic, you never know with him.