Who had the worse 5th set collapse in terms of converting straightforward breakpoint opportunities?

Who had the worse 5th set collapse in terms of not converting straightforward breakpoints?

  • Djokovic against Thiem at Roland Garros

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Medvedev against Nadal at Flushing Meadows

    Votes: 2 50.0%

  • Total voters
    4

calitennis127

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his lack of stamina :rolleyes:


Lol.....no, his game sucking in key ways. That's why he lost. The only times he has lost due to fatigue came after he played something like 23 clay matches in 5 weeks and had a 4-hour semifinal with Djokovic before playing Federer in the final.

You just don't want to acknowledge all the times he has gotten thrashed on hardcourts.
 

Nadalfan2013

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Things happen! In finals he is 4-1 at USO but 1-4 at AO... he is 5-0 at Canadian Open but 0-5 at Miami... If you say that he's lucky at the USO and Canada then I say that he's unlucky at AO and Miami. :rolleyes: Why is Novak in finals 3-5 at the USO and 1-6 at Cincinnati? :rolleyes: Whatever he still made finals so he doesn't suck. Stop being a baby.
 

calitennis127

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Here's how this typically goes: Cali makes a genuinely insane claim like the above and feints confidence while stating it to try to come off slightly less clueless, when he gets called out for being factually incorrect (imagine actually believing Nadal is a moonballer), he'll claim you take his statement way too literally.

Lol.....now we know why Broken does not talk about sports psychology.....it's because he is terrible at reading people. As for the tennis point, I am far from the only person who has called Nadal a moonballer. It has been a common description for him for quite a while. Let's just look at that point at 24:52 which you idiotically assessed:



After Medvedev's initial big forehand, Nadal hit 4 clear butt-ugly moonballs. As butt-ugly as American cities run by Democrats who think like you, or, frankly, as butt-ugly as many places in the world run by incompetent people who you somehow think are vastly smarter than Americans.

Annnnnnnnnnd there it is... see my point above. Cali defines something in a way that literally nobody else does then calls others names for calling him out on his bullshit.

Lol.....this shows how far removed you are from American black sports culture and the emotions of it. For all your talk about opposing racism, you have absolutely no similarity to or connection with the black musical/athletic culture in the United States that dominates in football and basketball. You are almost as bad as a white person in the all-white Bernie Sanders state of Vermont. You are as lily-white as they come.

So for you, a "choke" or "collapse" can only be based on status, rankings, and official recognition. It can never be based on wasting a golden opportunity while you're ahead. That is because we are operating off your restrictive white-boy definition. Even Kevin Durant in the playoffs has more alpha male in him than you do.

HAHAHAHAHAH here he is literally redefining what a "collapse" is. So in 3 consecutive paragraphs, he's redefined moonballs, choke and a collapse.

No, I haven't re-defined anything. I expanded the application of the concepts of "choking" and "collapsing" to more than just your basic, overly restrictive definitions. My definition is more all-encompassing and more in tune with the emotions of the moment.

If you had any familiarity with black sports culture in America, you would have no problem with me saying that. But you don't. You are basically a white person from Vermont.

If a guy being up 2 sets and a break is a statistic...then yeah, I guess? Is the score a statistic now? In any case, yes, a guy being up 2 sets and a break should win the match...and if he doesn't, it's a collapse.

Lol.....more proof of how stale your mindset and analysis are. Answer this: what in Nadal's level dropped in sets 3 and 4? If you're honest, you will say nothing. The sets were long and close. Nadal did not fall behind 5-2 in the blink of an eye after going up 1-0 and having breakpoints for 2-0 like Medvedev did in the 5th. That would be a collapse.

Nadal played just fine in the 3rd and 4th sets......in some ways, he played better in those sets than he did in the first set (particularly serving-wise). The difference is that Medvedev raised his level. You can't point to anything Nadal did in the 3rd and 4th that amounted to self-destructing or imploding on the level of what happened to Federer in the 5th set against Dimitrov.

Nadal is literally the player who wins the most matches while being "outplayed." So maybe there is something he can do? Just a thought. Doing something about it doesn't necessarily mean outhitting. Hanging in there, defending, changing strategies, and picking your spots is also doing something about it. But you watch tennis simply for ballstriking.

Interesting.....is this an admission that Nadal weasels his way into big wins by forcing his opponents to come up with something that they're not producing on that day?

Proves my point exactly.....he wins the biggest matches because his opponents don't play to their potential, not because he is outright better than them.

Ah yes, Medvedev dictated the rally...until Nadal did,

Lmfao.....because of a BS moonball that clipped the line you moron. And you're telling me that I am omitting details? The ball that got Nadal the advantage in the rally was a) massively loopy and b) so close to being out that Medvedev almost stopped playing, which gave Nadal the opportunity to hit up the line.

and forced him to hit a defensive lob, which prompted the missed overhead. Thanks for sharing half the story.

Nadal did not dictate shit, lol. Medvedev was in control of it the entire time until Nadal's BS Skittles-rainbow forehand barely clipped the line and prompted Medvedev to stop for a split second because he thought it may have been out.

No, I didn't. I said he should have put that overhead in. Period. He's got maybe the best overhead on tour. He shouldn't miss it. Not on such a key point. Is it too much to expect Nadal to make it? It's a simple question.

Ridiculous question.....first of all, Nadal had just lucked out that a prior moonball barely clipped the line to give him the edge in the rally. Second, for you of all people as a Nadal fan to complain that someone missed a make-able shot after a long rally? Are you serious? That has been the story of Nadal's career.

What you are omitting is that Medvedev had just been ahead for most of the rally, hitting massive forehands, until one of Nadal's butt-ugly moonballs barely hit the line to give him the edge. Nadal had played defense to make the point much longer than it should have been, and after he was lucky to get ahead in the rally, Medvedev hit a great defensive shot deep. To make Nadal's subsequent overhead miss sound like a terrible error is downright stupid, which of course is why you are doing it. Nadal's error in that context made complete sense - except to you, because you don't know what you're talking about.

He hit a routine forehand pass. The circumstances make it more impressive, but the shot is pretty routine for these guys. I understand that by virtue of watching Nalbandian, you're unable to grasp the concept of guys not missing but these guys rarely miss these shots, since they're miles better than he ever was.

Oh good one, are you becoming slightly less lame with your comebacks?

As for the substance, that is just stupid. Nalbandian took Nadal at his hardcourt peak in 2009 and made mincemeat of him at Indian Wells, while Nadal was #1. You can make the case that perhaps Djokovic or Federer were better (I would disagree), but Nadal is not even in the conversation with his gadget/contraption approach to hardcourt tennis.
 
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calitennis127

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Things happen! In finals he is 4-1 at USO but 1-4 at AO... he is 5-0 at Canadian Open but 0-5 at Miami... If you say that he's lucky at the USO and Canada then I say that he's unlucky at AO and Miami. :rolleyes: Why is Novak in finals 3-5 at the USO and 1-6 at Cincinnati? :rolleyes: Whatever he still made finals so he doesn't suck. Stop being a baby.

Novak's record in Cincinnati has to do with Federer. At the US Open, he had two terrible, inexcusable losses to Nadal and Wawrinka is a bad match-up for him.
 
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Moxie

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There are aspects of it that I like and others that I cannot stand. But what I really cannot stand is that he has won so many big matches with that style of play, by weaseling his way to victory as his opponents did not play anywhere to their capability (see Djokovic falling apart in set 3 of the 2013 US Open or Medvedev's choke/collapse in set 5 of the 2019 USO).
I don't really believe there are any aspects of Nadal's game that you like, or respect. All you ever give him credit for is "stamina." (That seems like a "wink, wink," eh?) Oh, and occasionally for his high serve pct. Your notion that he "weasels" his way to victory is a deep misunderstanding of his game, and I suspect that you don't even watch his matches, based on how you judge his play. You say, above, and have often said, that his opponents just don't play up to their abilities against him. It's a doggone shame, huh? That a guy could have the most MS 1000s and 19 Majors, second most in history, simply because his opponents always fold at the wrong moments. Too bad he's faced such weaklings, like Federer, Djokovic, Murray and King David. If he'd faced real competition, surely his "cheesy" game wouldn't have held up, right? Just lucky for him he's playing in such a weak era, I guess.
 

calitennis127

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I don't really believe there are any aspects of Nadal's game that you like, or respect. All you ever give him credit for is "stamina." (That seems like a "wink, wink," eh?) Oh, and occasionally for his high serve pct.

I have credited him for his inside-out forehand and volleys.

Your notion that he "weasels" his way to victory is a deep misunderstanding of his game,

That's a very accurate way of characterizing his biggest victories in Slams

It's a doggone shame, huh? That a guy could have the most MS 1000s and 19 Majors, second most in history, simply because his opponents always fold at the wrong moments.

Those numbers are wildly inflated by what he has done on his clay so please don't act like he is some magisterial all-around player. And Federer is largely to blame for that by underperforming in the 2006-2011 period against Nadal on clay.
 

brokenshoelace

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Except, you fucking retard, it had every reason to get to that point. You keep talking like Nadal was terrible in the third set and that's not the case at all. Medvedev raised his level in sets 3 and 4, while Nadal stayed constant and actually improved on serve (Nadal only served around 37% in the first set and Medvedev was so bad after getting the early break that he still lost). Sets 3 and 4 were not lost in a matter of minutes; they were not lost because Nadal got tired or made a bunch of errors. They were lost by the scores of 7-5 and 6-4 after a bunch of long games and long rallies. They were nothing like Federer's 5th set against Dimitrov in which Federer was spraying errors and the set was over in the snap of your little 3 centimer-long fingers.

You simply do not know what you are talking about - just like when you said Nadal was better than Djokovic on grass in 2010. But go ahead - curse at someone and show how hardcore you are! Do it! Try to prove you're interesting and original and have some spunk! Come on man! We believe in you!

It's the only post I'll bother responding to:

Yes, Nadal's level dropped significantly in the third set (but not the fourth). That was his B- game at the most. He should have won a lot earlier.

Yes, I don't know what I'm talking about Mr. Nalbandian moves as well as Nadal and is as good an athlete.

By the way, find me literally anyone who's referred to Nadal as a moonballer.
 

brokenshoelace

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I just thought it would be more interesting if you continued the discussion rather than just snark...but you do you. All good.

What's interesting about a conversation based on the premise that Nadal and Nalbandian have similar games? Sometimes it's OK to call out something stupid for what it is. Saves everyone time and effort.
 

brokenshoelace

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There are aspects of it that I like and others that I cannot stand. But what I really cannot stand is that he has won so many big matches with that style of play, by weaseling his way to victory as his opponents did not play anywhere to their capability (see Djokovic falling apart in set 3 of the 2013 US Open or Medvedev's choke/collapse in set 5 of the 2019 USO).

Awwww...

You should make a few more threads about it.
 

the AntiPusher

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What bothers me about Nadal's game is that fundamentally, with how he hits the ball and constructs points, he give opponents the opportunity to beat him if they're sharp and on top of things. Everyone has a solid chance to beat Nadal if they have a great day. His style of play allows them to set up shots and find a rhythm if they're sharp. Federer and Djokovic, on the other hand, play in a manner that does not allow the opponents a chance when they're on top of their game. If you need statistical proof of this, just look at how Nadal has won his biggest matches on hardcourts - by creating a huge number of (un)forced errors. This means his opponents are getting racquets on the shots he hits but not doing as much as they could with them. This approach of "I am going to make you come up with the goods" instead of "I am going to deliver the unstoppable" is simply not the ideal way to play a sport. It is a prudent approach in certain situations but as an overall strategy it simply reveals limitations.

On that point, I cannot stand the weasely way in which he has won so many big matches in Grand Slams, winning because of his opponent's failings more than his own strengths. Federer's meltdown in Australia 2009, Federer's self-destruction at Roland Garros in 2007 and 2011, Djokovic's implosion in the 3rd set of the US Open 2013, Medvedev's ridiculous 5th set, Djokovic shrinking at the end of the second set in the 2014 French Open final, etc.

These were all matches that Nadal won in which his opponent's failings were the biggest story in the match, not his own strengths, and that is because his game is limited in all but one way - endless stamina that allows him to play to 90% of his capability in every game of every set.

Nadal has more endurance than everyone on tour and is in the same league of athleticism as Djokovic and Federer. Yet he has struggled mightily on hardcourts and gotten absolutely doused numerous times, despite always playing to at least 90% of his capability. I find that sad, considering how much more athletic and fit he is than his competition.
Cali. Thanks for your reply and I can respect your candor. Cali, take time to reread your post. You are only giving Rafa credit for being highly condition and very athletic.

My brief take on Rafa's game. Rafael's game is built to make the game very inconvenient and uncomfortable for his opponent. Rafa's heavy western topspin is constructed to pull his opponent off the court where he can step in and deliver a surgical strike blow to his opponent. Roger's and Novak's game is built upon the same type of consistent type of hitting but is more atheistically pleasing to the eye of a tennis servant such as yourself.
Cali if you think about it the other way, Rafa is brilliant. It's very true that he isn't as talented as Roger is but that person hasn't EVER existed. Toni has stated this numerous of times but this doesn't mean Rafa isn't a better or overall competitor. Think about it Cali, if you had one set with your family well being at stake, who would play that set. It has to be Nadal because he will fight for everypoint because he has the defensive skills only matched by Novak's.
 

calitennis127

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Jesus Christ Cali is feeling some Ukrainian heat.

Lol.....Broken can't help being a misinformed dumbass or being corny. It's funny how after all these years of me poking fun at how cheesy and cliche he was he has altered his identity (a la Kevin Durant in 2017) to demonstrating extreme aggression and trying to make more jokes.

You're welcome, Broken. I'm glad I helped you out a little bit. You're my son. So make sure you act right and talk to me with respect.
 

calitennis127

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It's the only post I'll bother responding to:

Thanks, that means less stupidity to respond to. But I am happy to see that, despite spending everyday on these boards, you are running from the substantive arguments. It shows you have nothing to offer in return. Corny dumbass.

BrokenShitboi, the little cornball from Vermont.

Yes, Nadal's level dropped significantly in the third set (but not the fourth). That was his B- game at the most. He should have won a lot earlier.

Lol....how the f did Nadal's level drop in the 3rd set? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, I don't know what I'm talking about Mr. Nalbandian moves as well as Nadal and is as good an athlete.

Lol.....you're so clueless about sports. You really should quit these boards and quit watching sports (except soccer) and stick to your medieval studies. Seriously.

Nalbandian obviously was not as durable and did not have the stamina, but if you watch any of the matches from the early part of his career he clearly had the same level of burst and lateral quickness as Nadal. I challenged you to point to any points in his H2H match with Nadal at Miami as proof of superior athleticism and you couldn't.

All you can do is fall back on fashionable cliches.....there is no originality or depth with you at all.



By the way, find me literally anyone who's referred to Nadal as a moonballer.

Btw, a lot of people did in the early part of his career when he was winning basically nothing of clay. Btw, if you didn't notice people saying that, that was your problem. Btw, that point I referenced in the video at 24:52 showed a bunch of moonballs.

Stop being so sensitive.
 

calitennis127

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Awwww...

You should make a few more threads about it.



Lol.....shut up you little pussy. You know you snooped around on this website for years waiting for me to come back so you could show that you'd changed. Don't encourage me to leave again or then you'll have to go back to cursing at AntiPusher and Front like a Palestinian protester cursing at the Israeli army.

You know you like someone pointing out your obvious flaws, shortcomings, and ignorance (except on politics, where you might be a lost cause).....it makes you step your game up a little bit and add some flavor to it. Without my influence, you're just unbuttered toast. With me you upgrade to bagel with jelly. Not exactly setting the world on fire but a little sugar instead of none.
 

brokenshoelace

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Lol.....shut up you little pussy. You know you snooped around on this website for years waiting for me to come back so you could show that you'd changed. Don't encourage me to leave again or then you'll have to go back to cursing at AntiPusher and Front like a Palestinian protester cursing at the Israeli army.

You know you like someone pointing out your obvious flaws, shortcomings, and ignorance (except on politics, where you might be a lost cause).....it makes you step your game up a little bit and add some flavor to it. Without my influence, you're just unbuttered toast. With me you upgrade to bagel with jelly. Not exactly setting the world on fire but a little sugar instead of none.

I legitimately find your levels of fascinations with me captivating.
 

calitennis127

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I legitimately find your levels of fascinations with me captivating.


More proof of inability to psychoanalyze.....which is why Broken can't even understand the success of his favorite player. Trust me, I don't concern myself much at all with you. But if you're conversing with someone it's kind of hard not to notice some things about them.
 

brokenshoelace

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Lol....how the f did Nadal's level drop in the 3rd set? You have no idea what you're talking about..

Ahhhh the "you have no idea what you're talking about" response. Very substantive.



Lol.....you're so clueless about sports. You really should quit these boards and quit watching sports (except soccer) and stick to your medieval studies. Seriously.

Nalbandian obviously was not as durable and did not have the stamina, but if you watch any of the matches from the early part of his career he clearly had the same level of burst and lateral quickness as Nadal. I challenged you to point to any points in his H2H match with Nadal at Miami as proof of superior athleticism and you couldn't..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA NALBANDIAN HAS THE SAME LEVEL OF BURST AND LATERAL QUICKNESS AS NADAL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Congrats, Anti Pusher's "Nalbandian and Nadal have similar games" is no longer the dumbest post in this thread.



Btw, a lot of people did in the early part of his career when he was winning basically nothing of clay. Btw, if you didn't notice people saying that, that was your problem. Btw, that point I referenced in the video at 24:52 showed a bunch of moonballs.

Stop being so sensitive.

Ah yes, he threw up a bunch of moonballs = he's a moonballer.

Well everyone, in that very same match, Nadal served and volleyed A LOT. I hereby declare him to be a serve and volley player.

Also the argument that people called him that early in his career (which is false) is pretty much you admitting that you're full of shit since you know... his game actually changed and he's won a lot off clay so it's no longer relevant...you should know, since you've had a meltdown for every single title he's won thereafter.
 

brokenshoelace

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More proof of inability to psychoanalyze.....which is why Broken can't even understand the success of his favorite player. Trust me, I don't concern myself much at all with you. But if you're conversing with someone it's kind of hard not to notice some things about them.

In fairness I don't have to directly converse with you to tell that you're an idiot, but that's besides the point.