Which match was better? RG 2011 Fed vs Djokovic or RG 2015 Wawrinka vs Djokovic?

[Federberg]

I can hardly separate the two matches. However, I think Federer was insane in 2011. He played at an amazing level and I didn’t give him a chance going into that match, considering how dominant Djokovic was in 2011.

No argument there. Particularly the first 2 sets. But for me, the level of belief Stan showed and frankly the level he played at against the most attritional player we have ever seen. He attacked with abandon, there was only one way he was going to win, he had to blow Novak off the court. He had to make Novak doubt himself and he did. That was special. And in kilt pattern shorts as well. You gotta give him extra props for that

 

[atttomole]

No argument there. Particularly the first 2 sets. But for me, the level of belief Stan showed and frankly the level he played at against the most attritional player we have ever seen. He attacked with abandon, there was only one way he was going to win, he had to blow Novak off the court. He had to make Novak doubt himself and he did. That was special. And in kilt pattern shorts as well. You gotta give him extra props for that

The fact that Stan lost the first set made the match more epic. I remember watching the first set, then I had to board a plane. Hours later, I was astonished to see that Djokovic had lost the match.

 

[Federberg]

The fact that Stan lost the first set made the match more epic. I remember watching the first set, then I had to board a plane. Hours later, I was astonished to see that Djokovic had lost the match.

Yes exactly! How many times has Novak lost a match after winning the first set. Stan broke his soul

 

[tented]

Yes exactly! How many times has Novak lost a match after winning the first set. Stan broke his soul

How many times has Novak lost a GS final after winning the first set. I think once at RG against Rafa, but that’s it, as far as I remember.

 

[Moxie]

I think Fed beat a Novak who played better overall game, so a better match for me. In 2015 he was more restrained, and Stan absolutely overpowered him. Obviously in hind sight one can say he could’ve changed strategy to be more offensive, but probably he thought Stan would crumble if he could weather the storm.....Stan would have none of it. Funny enough for someone considered as being mentally fragile Stan is tough as nails in slam finals more often than not.

Stan in Major finals has been a progression, IMO. He played an impaired Nadal in AO '14, and still managed to lose a set just on nerves. But it got him over the hump of a Major win. I also think that Djokovic fed the "Stanimal" in the FO final, as you say in the bolded above. It was not just me sensing that Novak got conservative after taking the first. There were Nole fans on the live chat saying the same. He gave Stan the chance to hit red-line, which, all credit to him, he did. It was still a massive match, but I also felt that Djokovic waited a bit too long to bring a more aggressive game, and, that once he saw it slipping away, you could see the nerves get to his legs. When he played the USO v. Nole in '16, our old friend Billie put it well: Stan didn't play as great as he did at RG v. Nole, but he played that one smarter. That's what I mean about the progression.

And as for the matches I will be a bit biased but I thought the 2011 one was better. In 2015 the first set was kind of what we expected coming in, Novak super solid and Wawrinka just a bit too erratic. But then Stan just transformed to Stanimal and started hitting even harder and wasn't missing often. It's true Novak was a little passive at times but part of that was Stan rattling him a bit.

2011 became a bit more dramatic at the end because if I remember correctly they were going to suspend play after the 4th TB as it was getting close to dark. It had more twists throughout. I think Novak was up a break in the 4th set and serving for it and couldn't hold it. Roger was on fire in the 2nd and Nole returned the favor in the 3rd.

As I said above, I think Stan had help transforming into his best beast, but he was increasingly confident from the 2nd set. Some of his best tennis ever. I agree with you on the 2011 v. Roger, and you're right that part of the drama was that it would have been stopped for darkness if Roger hadn't won the 4th. It was much more of an edge-of-your-seat match.

 

[DarthFed]

Stan in Major finals has been a progression, IMO. He played an impaired Nadal in AO '14, and still managed to lose a set just on nerves. But it got him over the hump of a Major win. I also think that Djokovic fed the "Stanimal" in the FO final, as you say in the bolded above. It was not just me sensing that Novak got conservative after taking the first. There were Nole fans on the live chat saying the same. He gave Stan the chance to hit red-line, which, all credit to him, he did. It was still a massive match, but I also felt that Djokovic waited a bit too long to bring a more aggressive game, and, that once he saw it slipping away, you could see the nerves get to his legs. When he played the USO v. Nole in '16, our old friend Billie put it well: Stan didn't play as great as he did at RG v. Nole, but he played that one smarter. That's what I mean about the progression.



As I said above, I think Stan had help transforming into his best beast, but he was increasingly confident from the 2nd set. Some of his best tennis ever. I agree with you on the 2011 v. Roger, and you're right that part of the drama was that it would have been stopped for darkness if Roger hadn't won the 4th. It was much more of an edge-of-your-seat match.

Stan got over the hump by beating Novak at 2014 AO, the real progress was the year + before where he was going deep in majors and damn near beating Novak already. He beat Nole in 2014 and then was taking Nads to school up a set and break before the injury. In 2015 he straight settled Federer at RG and then turned the match around on his own merits vs Novak. I know you can't stand Stan due to him abandoning his family but your insistence that his runs are lucky/easy is pretty crazy. I remember a post where you were saying Murray had it tougher in his 3 majors than Stan did which is pretty out there.

 

[Ricardo]

Stan got over the hump by beating Novak at 2014 AO, the real progress was the year + before where he was going deep in majors and damn near beating Novak already. He beat Nole in 2014 and then was taking Nads to school up a set and break before the injury. In 2015 he straight settled Federer at RG and then turned the match around on his own merits vs Novak. I know you can't stand Stan due to him abandoning his family but your insistence that his runs are lucky/easy is pretty crazy. I remember a post where you were saying Murray had it tougher in his 3 majors than Stan has which is pretty out there.

Exactly during his runs he matched prime Novak shot for shot, and more, in fact beating him at AO, RG and USO....nothing lucky about that.

 

[Federberg]

I wasn't even aware that there are still folks who even entertain the idea of luck where Stan is concerned. Amazing..

 

[Federberg]

Exactly during his runs he matched prime Novak shot for shot, and more, in fact beating him at AO, RG and USO....nothing lucky about that.

that's why I like 2015 better. Prime Djokovic. You wouldn't expect anyone but Rafa or Roger to take him out. And Stanimal did it going away. Rarely seen power tennis like that on the dirt before. It was something to behold. I appreciate others might prefer 2011, but I guess it's a matter of taste. I love that Stan v Novak match up

 

[Moxie]

Stan got over the hump by beating Novak at 2014 AO, the real progress was the year + before where he was going deep in majors and damn near beating Novak already. He beat Nole in 2014 and then was taking Nads to school up a set and break before the injury. In 2015 he straight settled Federer at RG and then turned the match around on his own merits vs Novak. I know you can't stand Stan due to him abandoning his family but your insistence that his runs are lucky/easy is pretty crazy. I remember a post where you were saying Murray had it tougher in his 3 majors than Stan did which is pretty out there.

That is not what I said, at all. I said that Stan's confidence in Majors finals was a progression. I didn't say luck or easy, did I? Also, whatever you think I said about Murray long ago, since you misquote me in the present, I have no problem believing that you have poorly remembered what I meant way back whenever.

 

[Ricardo]

that's why I like 2015 better. Prime Djokovic. You wouldn't expect anyone but Rafa or Roger to take him out. And Stanimal did it going away. Rarely seen power tennis like that on the dirt before. It was something to behold. I appreciate others might prefer 2011, but I guess it's a matter of taste. I love that Stan v Novak match up

2011 >> 2015 for peak Djokovic. In terms of competition we had crap Fedal in 2015 as well while they were strong in 2011, it’s not matter of taste when it comes to being objective. Your taste should be irrelevant in this discussion.

 

[Federberg]

2011 >> 2015 for peak Djokovic. In terms of competition we had crap Fedal in 2015 as well while they were strong in 2011, it’s not matter of taste when it comes to being objective. Your taste should be irrelevant in this discussion.

Mate you're not making much sense to me here. This is entirely a subjective thread question. I have answered based upon my personal tastes. You might disagree, that's entirely your right, but to try to bring objectivity to this is a bit funny to be honest. For a start even if you use empirical data to support the lead up to both matches, any watcher of sport knows that you can pretty much throw all of that out for an individual match

 

[Ricardo]

Mate you're not making much sense to me here. This is entirely a subjective thread question. I have answered based upon my personal tastes. You might disagree, that's entirely your right, but to try to bring objectivity to this is a bit funny to be honest. For a start even if you use empirical data to support the lead up to both matches, any watcher of sport knows that you can pretty much throw all of that out for an individual match

You used the argument that Djoker was a better player in 2015, and facts don’t support that. He was unbeatable all the way up to that RG semi in 2011, beating prime Rafa on clay which nobody has done before. 2015 was definitely weaker version of him except by playing at lower level he could sustain longer. But his level up to RG at that point? Not as good.

 

[Ricardo]

Again I disagree. A mythology gets built up about levels quite often. We have to go back to the tape. In my opinion - mine - Novak was a better player in 2015 than 2011. Now if you're not basing your perception of Novak's level in 2011 on the fact that he was unbeaten, all I can say is that it takes 2 to tango. I'll maintain my opinion that a match in which Novak was playing well, but attempting "don't lose" tennis in 2015, when he was far more ingrained in his belief of his own superiority and dominance, he attained a higher level than in 2011. That's my view. Your original question was which match did we think was better. That's a subjective question mate. There can be no absolutes there. If you believe it's 2011, and every other person on the planet believed you, it wouldn't matter. I still say 2015. My view would be just as valid as everyone elses

So Federberg says that instant noodle from the supermarket is better taste than some famous dish of certain Michelin stared restaurant, and he thinks his opinion is as valid as everyone else’s even if all others don’t agree. Or he is a better player than Federer himself, and we can’t prove his view wrong since they will never play one another.

Same logic, same shit.

 

[Ricardo]

Also it takes 2 to tango, you implying that his competetion wasn’t strong enough to beat him in 2011? That’s even more preposterous, we got Murray and karlovic beating him in 2015, none of that happened in 2011, and we had Fedal who were shadow of their former selves in 2015.....compare that to 2011, Rafa was coming off his career year, and Federer was improving his form to a great 2012. Competetion of 2011 >>>>> 2015.

 

[Federberg]

You used the argument that Djoker was a better player in 2015, and facts don’t support that. He was unbeatable all the way up to that RG semi in 2011, beating prime Rafa on clay which nobody has done before. 2015 was definitely weaker version of him except by playing at lower level he could sustain longer. But his level up to RG at that point? Not as good.

based on the streak you say that 2011 Djokovic was better than in 2015? I can understand why you would say that, but I actually believe that in 2011 no one saw him coming. While he had been around for years, he was new in terms of how he approached the game. It clearly took some time for opponents to adjust to this. This is why I argue that it takes 2 to tango. In 2015 he had ascended. Yes he faced more opposition, he wasn't able to dominate in quite the same way. By the way it's possible to make the claim that Novak's 2011 was better than his 2015 and still think that he was a better player in 2015. He was a seasoned number one at that point in my view. But all of this is essentially irrelevant to the thread question. I think that 2015 was better for a number of reasons. Not least of which was the fact that it was a final. I could also add that over a period of 6 slams starting with the AO that year only Stan was able to stop Novak from winning a slam. That's a record of dominance that few have attained. I give credit to Stan for being able to do that, and it further elevates his achievement in my view. You can disagree with that if you want, but as I'm sure you know by now, you aren't going to change my mind. Sorry..

 

[Moxie]

Mate you're not making much sense to me here. This is entirely a subjective thread question. I have answered based upon my personal tastes. You might disagree, that's entirely your right, but to try to bring objectivity to this is a bit funny to be honest. For a start even if you use empirical data to support the lead up to both matches, any watcher of sport knows that you can pretty much throw all of that out for an individual match

I agree with this, and I have long been wondering why the heated discussion over which year was better for Djokovic actually means much to the question of which match was better, given that Djokovic was his 2.0-self and in very good form both years. The choice of either match is not "wrong," it's just an opinion, and I found it interesting the cases made for each. In which year was he better is a completely different question, imo, but we can discuss that, too. Personally, I'd say Djokovic was even better in 2015, because by then he was used to being cock-of-the-walk, and was pretty unbeatable. But I still it don't think it has bearing on discussing the two matches as individual matches.

 

[Federberg]

I agree with this, and I have long been wondering why the heated discussion over which year was better for Djokovic actually means much to the question of which match was better, given that Djokovic was his 2.0-self and in very good form both years. The choice of either match is not "wrong," it's just an opinion, and I found it interesting the cases made for each. In which year was he better is a completely different question, imo, but we can discuss that, too. Personally, I'd say Djokovic was even better in 2015, because by then he was used to being cock-of-the-walk, and was pretty unbeatable. But I still it don't think it has bearing on discussing the two matches as individual matches.

Agreed. I actually thought that the thread question was opinion based. I never thought I would have to strenuously justify my thinking! I might be a Fed fan but quite frankly just because it was Roger in 2011 has no bearing in my opinion. Both matches were compelling but I found Stan's level to be other worldly. Both Stan and Roger are attacking players. In my humble opinion the power and consistent aggression Stan brought to the table against a (again in my opinion) better Djokovic was awesome to behold. I can understand why some might pick the 2011 semi but my preference was 2015. I'm sticking with that

 

[Ricardo]

When I read that Novak had more opposition in 2015 than 2011, only thing you can do is laugh. How clueless can a tennis fan get? And he tried to sound more valid saying it’s not about him being a Fed fan, who ever thought of that irrelevant crap? Just gave away something there...pretty stinky tbh!!

 

[Federberg]

^To be honest it seems to me you're revealing a lack of sporting knowledge. Opponents learned over time how to contend with Novak, there's nothing unusual about that. pre-2011 Novak was not the same as 2011 Novak, he was able to go on that impressive streak and his opposition didn't quite know yet how to counter him. In 2015 he was a better player but his opposition got better too. Despite that Novak went on one of the most dominant slam runs in history. He became a seasoned number one. He lost only one of the 6 slams from AO15 onwards. I don't disagree that his 2011 was more impressive by the numbers. But Stan stopping him, and the way he played, was more impressive to me than Roger stopping his streak. As exciting as that match was for Roger, I found Stan's performance more impressive. Frankly Roger had to hang on in that match, it was small margins in the end. Nothing of the sort for Stan, he won that match running away. He beat the tar off Novak. That's great sporting entertainment to me. Something I never saw coming, hence that match sticks in my mind more. I have no problem with you disagreeing, it's a matter of taste. What I don't understand is why you seem all burnt up about me disagreeing