Which has been greater at the US Open: Nadal's overachieving or Djokovic's/Federer's underachieving?

[calitennis127]

Ah yes, so the ultimate stamina king, mentally unflappable fight-to-the-death warrior just threw in the towel due to fatigue. Awesome. One of these days you have to start being consistent with your arguments. One of these days.

There is no contradiction here, lol.....saying that Nadal is the fittest player with a unique stamina level while also acknowledging that there are some rare times where his body breaks down is not contradictory, especially at a hardcourt tournament where his game has clear limitations and he has to work very hard to beat the best players.

I also am not saying that he wasn't experiencing some pain against Delpo.....he likely was. But all players on tour deal with various levels of pain and they put up with it or tank based on circumstances. Do you seriously think he would have retired if he was up 2 sets to 0, or even if it was 1-1?

This isn't hard to figure out.....would you be more likely to fight through pain up 2 sets to 0 on an opponent you feel confident against or if you're down 2 sets to 0 against an opponent who can beat you on your best day?

The way that you don't even acknowledge the possibility of gamesmanship on Nadal's part shows how psychologically stale and partisan you are.....you assume that he has to be utterly virtuous at every turn. The most clear example of this is how you and Moxie dismiss Front's point about 2008 Hamburg.....the guy takes an injury timeout down 5-2 in the first set with a hamstring that is supposedly killing him. Then he goes on to win the set, win the match in 3 after long a long second set, and then play arguably the best Roland Garros of his career.

But Front is the crazy one for suggesting there may have been some gamesmanship there?

Please. You and Moxie are prejudiced beyond belief. In your case, though, you are so cliché-addicted and stale that it is hard for you to connect with any extreme competitive emotions in someone like Nadal or Djokovic. The only exception to this is when it comes to your strange preoccupation with eating feces, which you bring up quite a bit. It's the only time any of your comebacks have color to them.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

There is no contradiction here, lol.....saying that Nadal is the fittest player with a unique stamina level while also acknowledging that there are some rare times where his body breaks down is not contradictory, especially at a hardcourt tournament where his game has clear limitations and he has to work very hard to beat the best players.

I also am not saying that he wasn't experiencing some pain against Delpo.....he likely was. But all players on tour deal with various levels of pain and they put up with it or tank based on circumstances. Do you seriously think he would have retired if he was up 2 sets to 0, or even if it was 1-1?

This isn't hard to figure out.....would you be more likely to fight through pain up 2 sets to 0 on an opponent you feel confident against or if you're down 2 sets to 0 against an opponent who can beat you on your best day?

The way that you don't even acknowledge the possibility of gamesmanship on Nadal's part shows how psychologically stale you are, not to mention partisan.....you assume that he has to be utterly virtuous at every turn. The most clear example of this is how you and Moxie dismiss Front's point about 2008 Hamburg.....the guy takes an injury timeout down 5-2 in the first set with a hamstring that is supposedly killing him. Then he goes on to win the set, win the match in 3 after long a long second set, and then play arguably the best Roland Garros of his career.

But Front is the crazy one for suggesting there may have been some gamesmanship there?

Please. You and Moxie are prejudiced beyond belief.

Nadal missed the rest of that year proving that it was a real injury. Meanwhile Djokovic did the same against Wawrinka at the U.S. Open and now is trashing everyone and even playing doubles. Funny that you don’t talk about that.

 

[calitennis127]

Nadal missed the rest of that year proving that it was a real injury. Meanwhile Djokovic did the same against Wawrinka at the U.S. Open and now is trashing everyone and even playing doubles. Funny that you don’t talk about that.

I did talk about that. I said it was the same thing. I don't think Djokovic withdrew solely because his shoulder was hurting.

His shoulder was hurting but if he was up a set or two on just about any other opponent he would have kept playing. He just knew that he had no chance of coming back against Wawrinka playing at 60% so he called it a day. Same thing Nadal did against Delpo.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I did talk about that. I said it was the same thing. I don't think Djokovic withdrew solely because his shoulder was hurting.

His shoulder was hurting but if he was up a set or two on just about any other opponent he would have kept playing. He just knew that he had no chance of coming back against Wawrinka playing at 60% so he called it a day. Same thing Nadal did against Delpo.

Not the same thing because Nadal missed the rest of the season while Djokovic is now playing day after day like he’s 18 years old.

 

[calitennis127]

Not the same thing because Nadal missed the rest of the season while Djokovic is now playing day after day like he’s 18 years old.

So if Rome and Roland Garros were in October/November 2018 do you think Nadal would have skipped them too?

 

[Nadalfan2013]

So if Rome and Roland Garros were in October/November 2018 do you think Nadal would have skipped them too?

Yes. But the difference is Clay has always been an easier surface for the body, it’s the brutal cement surface that causes him more problems.

 

[calitennis127]

Yes. But the difference is Clay has always been an easier surface for the body, it’s the brutal cement surface that causes him more problems.

I beg to differ. I don't think it's any coincidence that Nadal's "injuries" pop up at the end of the year so often.....it is very convenient timing.

And I'm not blaming Nadal for this.....he is planning smartly. He prioritizes the Slams and the clay season, and he also knows that he is likely not going to win anything indoors. It's no different than Federer skipping the French to get ready for Wimbledon. It's smart planning based on knowing one's own limitations. Federer knows he is very unlikely to beat Djokovic or Nadal on clay at this point, and Nadal knows he is very unlikely to get beyond the quarters or semis of an indoor hardcourt event.

 

[brokenshoelace]

There is no contradiction here, lol.....saying that Nadal is the fittest player with a unique stamina level while also acknowledging that there are some rare times where his body breaks down is not contradictory, especially at a hardcourt tournament where his game has clear limitations and he has to work very hard to beat the best players.

I also am not saying that he wasn't experiencing some pain against Delpo.....he likely was. But all players on tour deal with various levels of pain and they put up with it or tank based on circumstances. Do you seriously think he would have retired if he was up 2 sets to 0, or even if it was 1-1?

This isn't hard to figure out.....would you be more likely to fight through pain up 2 sets to 0 on an opponent you feel confident against or if you're down 2 sets to 0 against an opponent who can beat you on your best day?

The way that you don't even acknowledge the possibility of gamesmanship on Nadal's part shows how psychologically stale and partisan you are.....you assume that he has to be utterly virtuous at every turn. The most clear example of this is how you and Moxie dismiss Front's point about 2008 Hamburg.....the guy takes an injury timeout down 5-2 in the first set with a hamstring that is supposedly killing him. Then he goes on to win the set, win the match in 3 after long a long second set, and then play arguably the best Roland Garros of his career.

But Front is the crazy one for suggesting there may have been some gamesmanship there?

Please. You and Moxie are prejudiced beyond belief. In your case, though, you are so cliché-addicted and stale that it is hard for you to connect with any extreme competitive emotions in someone like Nadal or Djokovic. The only exception to this is when it comes to your strange preoccupation with eating feces, which you bring up quite a bit. It's the only time any of your comebacks have color to them.

Gamesmanship isn’t giving up on the match wtf? The very point of gamesmanship is to try and find questionable ways to actually win.

 

[calitennis127]

Gamesmanship isn’t giving up on the match wtf? The very point of gamesmanship is to try and find questionable ways to actually win.

Or to give yourself public excuses when you're losing. Do you seriously think Nadal could not have finished his match with Delpo in 2018? Do you think he was in that much pain that he could not take another step?

Hamburg 2008 is the worst example. The guy takes a medical timeout down 5-2 in the first set for a hamstring, then goes on to win the first set and win the match in 3 before playing one of the best RG's of his career. I don't know about you but I have actually pulled a hamstring and it is a bitch of an injury. It lingers for at least 4-6 weeks. There is no way his injury was so serious that he needed a medical timeout.

That doesn't excuse Federer not closing the deal, but it's always curious that Nadal so often gets injuries at times that are either very convenient for his scheduling or as an explanation to the world of why he is losing a match.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Or to give yourself public excuses when you're losing. Do you seriously think Nadal could not have finished his match with Delpo in 2018? Do you think he was in that much pain that he could not take another step?

Hamburg 2008 is the worst example. The guy takes a medical timeout down 5-2 in the first set for a hamstring, then goes on to win the first set and win the match in 3 before playing one of the best RG's of his career. I don't know about you but I have actually pulled a hamstring and it is a bitch of an injury. It lingers for at least 4-6 weeks. There is no way his injury was so serious that he needed a medical timeout.

That doesn't excuse Federer not closing the deal, but it's always curious that Nadal so often gets injuries at times that are either very convenient for his scheduling or as an explanation to the world of why he is losing a match.

The Hamburg example is ludicrous because he actually finished that match so there’s definitely strong hints of gamesmanship (especially given the result). But if you really think that someone with double digit majors cares so much about “giving himself excuses” to the point of retiring from a major semi final when he’s known to be the ultimate fighters, then good for you.

I mean the guy proceeded to miss the rest of the season. Meanwhile there’s zero evidence that he did it for excuses making...except apparently an unrelated match from 10 years before that was In no way similar?

 

[calitennis127]

The Hamburg example is ludicrous because he actually finished that match so there’s definitely strong hints of gamesmanship (especially given the result). But if you really think that someone with double digit majors cares so much about “giving himself excuses” to the point of retiring from a major semi final when he’s known to be the ultimate fighters, then good for you.

I mean the guy proceeded to miss the rest of the season. Meanwhile there’s zero evidence that he did it for excuses making...except apparently an unrelated match from 10 years before that was In no way similar?

Why couldn't he have done it to plant a seed in everyone's mind that he had lost because he was hurt?

Do you really think he could not have played another set?

 

[Andy22]

Why couldn't he have done it to plant a seed in everyone's mind that he had lost because he was hurt?

Do you really think he could not have played another set?

nadal was injured your not in nadal camp so don't really know everything is just outside point view

 

[calitennis127]

nadal was injured your not in nadal camp so don't really know everything is just outside point view

Nor are you. So how do you know?

 

[Andy22]

Nor are you. So how do you know?

We both don't know me saying that he was injured is just my opinion.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

All I know is that if I was injured like Djokovic supposedly was against Wawrinka at the U.S. Open I wouldn’t come back and play in TWO consecutive tournaments and in BOTH singles and doubles. I would only play singles to test my arm.

 

[Andy22]

All I know is that if I was injured like Djokovic supposedly was against Wawrinka at the U.S. Open I wouldn’t come back and play in TWO consecutive tournaments and in BOTH singles and doubles. I would only play singles to test my arm.

Djokovic could have played that 3rd set against Wawrinka if was not getting his ass kicked so much lol.

 

[Horsa]

All I know is that if I was injured like Djokovic supposedly was against Wawrinka at the U.S. Open I wouldn’t come back and play in TWO consecutive tournaments and in BOTH singles and doubles. I would only play singles to test my arm.

I'd do just doubles in that position knowing that I had a partner to help me out. That way I could discuss how I felt & that I was trying to get better & trying my best & I could talk tactics with my partner & let them help me out a bit & I'd help them in areas where I was stronger.

 

[Andy22]

All I know is that if I was injured like Djokovic supposedly was against Wawrinka at the U.S. Open I wouldn’t come back and play in TWO consecutive tournaments and in BOTH singles and doubles. I would only play singles to test my arm.

Djokovic could have played that 3rd set against Wawrinka if he was not getting his ass kicked so much lol.

 

[Moxie]

Or to give yourself public excuses when you're losing. Do you seriously think Nadal could not have finished his match with Delpo in 2018? Do you think he was in that much pain that he could not take another step?

Hamburg 2008 is the worst example. The guy takes a medical timeout down 5-2 in the first set for a hamstring, then goes on to win the first set and win the match in 3 before playing one of the best RG's of his career. I don't know about you but I have actually pulled a hamstring and it is a bitch of an injury. It lingers for at least 4-6 weeks. There is no way his injury was so serious that he needed a medical timeout.

That doesn't excuse Federer not closing the deal, but it's always curious that Nadal so often gets injuries at times that are either very convenient for his scheduling or as an explanation to the world of why he is losing a match.

In the bolded quotes above, you make injury out to be either 100% healthy or "can't take one more step." I'm pretty sure that you understand that there is a lot of area in between for an athlete. Part of the reason for a MTO is to assess whether or not continuing risks further damage, whether or not continuing could lead to a longer time off during the season, for the sake of one match. None of us is privy to these things. As to the hamstring, no one said that he pulled it. I have had hamstring tightness in distance running, and sometimes if you stop and stretch, you can loosen it up and keep going. Or sometimes you are going to pull it or tear it.

Why couldn't he have done it to plant a seed in everyone's mind that he had lost because he was hurt?

Let's tease your question out a bit...what seed would he really have been planting? For whom? To what end? Would his opponents be more fearful of him if they think he "only" loses when injured? Is his ego so big that he wants the world to think that?

Do you really think he could not have played another set?

See above. If you're only doing more damage, the advice would be to stop. Given that he shut down his season after that, there is reason to believe that the injury was serious. Thinking that it was just "cover" for not wanting to play the rest of the season is unnecessarily conspiratorial. Nadal is within ATP rules to skip any number of events now, without excuse or explanation, based on years of playing and matches played. And he has often played the late season, when healthy.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Why couldn't he have done it to plant a seed in everyone's mind that he had lost because he was hurt?

Do you really think he could not have played another set?

He could have done it to plant seed in everyone's mind...and what would he accomplish exactly? Fans on message boards arguing about it? Seriously, how did that benefit him? Which player went "damn I was starting to think Nadal is chopped liver but I guess he might be hurt."

On one hand, we have a guy who's known to be a fighter, to never give up, who proceeded to miss the rest of the season. The last part in particular, is the damming evidence.

On the other hand, we have unfounded theories that don't especially add up as they are inconsistent with Nadal's patterns and behavior. His gamesmanship has the purpose to try and win matches. It's not about throwing in the towel. It never was.

Now, as far as your second question, it's really the laziest issue anyone raises in these arguments. Of course he could have played another set. 95% of retirements that occur late in a match (and I'd argue it's more than that) consist of guys who theoretically could have finished their matches. It's rarely a case of someone just not being able to function anymore. That's not the issue. The issue is you're suggesting it wasn't about an injury but fatigue. I'm saying that's silly since he missed the rest of the season. But yes, Nadal would have tried to finish the match if he wasn't down 2 sets to love. However, in those cases, it's a question of why even bother. I don't even think it's about risk. I don't think playing an extra set would necessarily have damaged him that much further. But in these circumstances, you're playing, you're hurting, you're losing, and you know your body, your mindset, your chances at turning things around, and make a decision accordingly.