Where are all the Djokolites?

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
NADAL2005RG has probably scared them all away.

DISCLAIMER: The post below is in no way demanding anything. I have never done that and nor is it my style.

With that out of the way, I'll state the following: Despite the fact that after a very short while, we've all learned not to take him seriously, he does bring the quality of the conversation down because at some point or another, someone will reply to him (I'm guilty of that as well), in which he will retaliate with something even more silly than his initial post, and it all goes downhill from there. It leads to thread hijacking, and it really puts me off (speaking strictly for myself here) as far as revisiting that thread and continuing whatever previous conversation had been started.

It's quite irritating actually. It's one thing going on tireless arguments with Cali or whatever, because at least actual arguments are being advanced, even if the thread gets derailed. This however, is completely different. Essentially, and I'm sorry for being too blunt here, but many threads are turning into most of us telling him, in one way or another, how annoying his posts are.
 

El Dude

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I find tribalism around favorite sports teams and players to be irritating and even immature. That said, it is interesting how one cannot help but have a favorite player. Mine is, as tented pointed out, Roger Federer. I have other players I like and keep track of, but none that I care about--or enjoy watching--as much as Roger. Yet Roger is 32 and won't be around forever, so for me the question is: who is next? I think I could go there with Grigor Dimitrov as I like his similarly smooth style of play, but I'm not ready to invest yet until I'm convinced he'll at least be a top 10 player and Masters contender. So Grigor might end up in that category of "players you like, but aren't that great."

In a way I think everyone has a favorite great - one of the Big Four - and then other players they like. But there are few tennis fans, I would imagine, that aren't invested in one of the Big Four. In other words, its really rare (I'm guessing) to run into a fan who just loves David Ferrer above and beyond anyone else. I'm sure there are some, but the drop-off in "primary fandom" but plummet after the Big Four.

As for Novak, Kieran, while I understand what you're getting at by using the term "Third Wheel" as far as popularity goes, its inaccurate in terms of dominance in the game, at least over the last three years. If you take 2011-13 as a whole, Novak has been the best overall player. Consider year-end rankings:

Djokovic: 1, 1, 2
Nadal: 2, 4, 1
Federer: 3, 2, 5?
Murray: 4, 3, 3

Consider Slam wins:
Djokovic: 5
Nadal: 4
Murray: 2
Federer: 1

Even though Rafa has had the best year in 2013, Novak's overall consistency has been remarkable. Compare the Big Four's Slam results this year:

Djokovic: W, F, SF, F
Nadal: A, W, 1R, W
Federer: SF, QF, 2R, 4R
Murray: F, A, W, QF

I'd say that Novak's overall Slam results this year edge Nadal's, but Nadal's five Masters crowns give him the edge in year-to-date points. Novak has also played in 10 of the last 13 Finals. That's a Federer-esque streak.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Novak never win more than one Slam per year again, but he's probably going to keep on doing it for a few more and, I would guess, finishes with somewhere in the 9-12 range, 9 being very conservative.

In a way it may be that Novak has become the Ivan Lendl of the current era. While Lendl finished four years at #1, it seemed like he was usually the 2nd best player. During the early 80s he played second fiddle to McEnroe. Then when it seemed like Lendl was taking over as the dominant player in the game, his dominance was marred by his inability to win the most prestigious tournament of all.

Lendl was ranked #1-3 nine years in a row, and #8 or better for 13 years straight. He was always there, holding his own against three generations of great players--Connors/Borg/McEnroe, Becker/Edberg/Wilander, and Sampras/Agassi/Courier--yet he remains the only 6+ Slam winner with a losing record in Slams. In the end, Lendl was the best overall player of the 1980s.

Novak is 6-6 in Slam Finals, and 1-4 in his last five. I really wouldn't be surprised to see him finish his career something like 10-12. No shame in that - it simply means that most of the time he wasn't the very best player in any given tournament. Even in 2012, which Novak finished the year as #1, Rafa had re-asserted himself early on, and then Roger took over. Novak simply was, day in and day out, as good or almost as good as anyone else, but only in 2011 was he clearly the best player in the game.

Among all-time greats, there seem to be two general career trajectories: 1) Players who flash brightly for a short period of time, then fall quickly and/or retire, and 2) Players with tremendous longevity who maintain a high level of player for a decade or more, but don't necessarily have a high peak of more than a year or so in which they clearly dominate the game.

Some examples of the two types:
1) Borg, Wilander, McEnroe, Courier
2) Connors, Vilas, Edberg, Becker, Lendl, Agassi, Djokovic? Murray?

Even the less-than-greats end up having one or the other of the two types of career. Lleyton Hewitt, for instance, was more in the 1st category, while Tommy Haas is more in the second.

Three names are conspicuously absent: Sampras, Federer, and Nadal. All three seem to be in both categories, especially Roger - which is one of the reasons why they (and he) are considered among the very best ever.
 

calitennis127

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I think Djokovic fans are just disappointed that their favorite player lost to an inferior opponent in multiple big matches this year. I can't blame them because I feel quite similarly about it.
 

Kieran

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calitennis127 said:
I think Djokovic fans are just disappointed that their favorite player lost to an inferior opponent in multiple big matches this year. I can't blame them because I feel quite similarly about it.

Inferior? :huh: :s
 

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tented said:
huntingyou said:
Kieran said:
huntingyou said:
Do I count? I'm a Novak fan

I have you in the Rafa camp.

But technically speaking, you're right. We all love great tennis and so therefore we're fans of what Novak can do and does, if not of the man himself when he does them against Rafa...

I find Novak amazing..........there is thing that he can do that are impossible to replicate.

ok, Rafa camp for obvious reason........a love roggie too btw, well his game. ;)


Yes, we all love great tennis, but the come-and-go appearances of the Djokovic fans makes it seem more like they're just that: Djokovic fans, but not tennis fans.
That's exactly it T. They are not tennis fans. How many Novak fans do we really have? I think on the old board we had a plethora of bandwagoners because he went on a tear in 2011. But since the "terminator" form has been largely absent the last 2 years, even some of the so-called true Novak fans only appear when he is showing some positive signs (aka AO & Monte Carlo).

They disappear after a loss because they've spent so much time beforehand telling us exactly how Novak intends to slay said opponent. When he doesn't live up to that form they don't have anything to talk about because God forbid they actually would congratulate his opponent and their fans.
 

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Kieran said:
calitennis127 said:
I think Djokovic fans are just disappointed that their favorite player lost to an inferior opponent in multiple big matches this year. I can't blame them because I feel quite similarly about it.

Inferior? :huh: :s

Kieran,
Why are you responding to this post? :puzzled
 

brokenshoelace

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calitennis127 said:
I think Djokovic fans are just disappointed that their favorite player lost to an inferior opponent in multiple big matches this year. I can't blame them because I feel quite similarly about it.

Awwwwww...

*Sends Cali a virtual hug*
 

Riotbeard

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I have been on vacation, but College Football has taken up some attention, but I am still around generally speaking.
 

Kieran

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kskate2 said:
Kieran said:
calitennis127 said:
I think Djokovic fans are just disappointed that their favorite player lost to an inferior opponent in multiple big matches this year. I can't blame them because I feel quite similarly about it.

Inferior? :huh: :s

Kieran,
Why are you responding to this post? :puzzled

A mix of masochism and amazement! ;)
 

calitennis127

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Riotbeard said:
I have been on vacation, but College Football has taken up some attention, but I am still around generally speaking.



I'll never relate to how people like college football as much as they do. The NFL is far better.

I find college football for the most part pretty boring (the NFL players are better) and also very cheesy with the school pageantry. The hypocrisy of the system of so-called "student-athletes" as well as the overblown and wildly exaggerated moral superiority of college athletics is also a major problem in American society.

But that is for the off-topic board I guess.
 

calitennis127

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Kieran said:
kskate2 said:
Kieran said:
calitennis127 said:
I think Djokovic fans are just disappointed that their favorite player lost to an inferior opponent in multiple big matches this year. I can't blame them because I feel quite similarly about it.

Inferior? :huh: :s

Kieran,
Why are you responding to this post? :puzzled

A mix of masochism and amazement! ;)



Masochism and amazement. Interesting that you bring up those two words.

When I watch Nadal pull out yet another grinded-out win in which his opponent hit more winners and clearly had control for significant portions of the match, it is indeed something akin to a masochistic experience.

As for amazement! I am repeatedly amazed by how Nadal wins matches like the one against Janowicz where he clearly looked like the worse player. He does this over and over, by being persistent and just not going away and opportunistically winning a couple key points.

It truly does cause me amazement how he pulls that nonsense off over and over and how too few players have stopped it.
 

GameSetAndMath

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calitennis127 said:
Riotbeard said:
I have been on vacation, but College Football has taken up some attention, but I am still around generally speaking.



I'll never relate to how people like college football as much as they do. The NFL is far better.

I find college football for the most part pretty boring (the NFL players are better) and also very cheesy with the school pageantry. The hypocrisy of the system of so-called "student-athletes" as well as the overblown and wildly exaggerated moral superiority of college athletics is also a major problem in American society.

But that is for the off-topic board I guess.

I agree that "student-athlete" is a joke. However, college football is lot more fun to
watch than NFL as there is more unpredictability, I suppose.
 

Riotbeard

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GameSetAndMath said:
calitennis127 said:
Riotbeard said:
I have been on vacation, but College Football has taken up some attention, but I am still around generally speaking.



I'll never relate to how people like college football as much as they do. The NFL is far better.

I find college football for the most part pretty boring (the NFL players are better) and also very cheesy with the school pageantry. The hypocrisy of the system of so-called "student-athletes" as well as the overblown and wildly exaggerated moral superiority of college athletics is also a major problem in American society.

But that is for the off-topic board I guess.

I agree that "student-athlete" is a joke. However, college football is lot more fun to
watch than NFL as there is more unpredictability, I suppose.

I agree with both of what you are saying. A lot of the pass protection rules in the nfl though have really hurt defense. They need to stop coddling, it's a contact sport.

Cali: Where I grew up we didn't have any pro teams, but we had two of the best college teams, so you grow up watching college football.
 

Moxie

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Riotbeard said:
GameSetAndMath said:
calitennis127 said:
Riotbeard said:
I have been on vacation, but College Football has taken up some attention, but I am still around generally speaking.



I'll never relate to how people like college football as much as they do. The NFL is far better.

I find college football for the most part pretty boring (the NFL players are better) and also very cheesy with the school pageantry. The hypocrisy of the system of so-called "student-athletes" as well as the overblown and wildly exaggerated moral superiority of college athletics is also a major problem in American society.

But that is for the off-topic board I guess.

I agree that "student-athlete" is a joke. However, college football is lot more fun to
watch than NFL as there is more unpredictability, I suppose.

I agree with both of what you are saying. A lot of the pass protection rules in the nfl though have really hurt defense. They need to stop coddling, it's a contact sport.

Cali: Where I grew up we didn't have any pro teams, but we had two of the best college teams, so you grow up watching college football.

Well, we may as well talk about this, since we've done "where the Djokovic fans have gone." (No point in chiding members who aren't around, and just thanks to those that still are.) I think there is a college football thread, but I'll add my 2 cents:

I like college ball because I don't have the feeling that I'm seeing the players on the field with their briefcases and accompanied by their agents. I like the school rah-rah thing. There's plenty of "pageantry" in the NFL, just that it's more professional and calculated, with less history.

RB: I have a friend who played in the NFL and has coached HS for years. He says that football is "not a contact sport, it's a collision sport." He means nothing more by that than reality. I say, however, that it's not bad to protect young men from the future damaging effects of a rough sport.
 

calitennis127

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Moxie629 said:
Riotbeard said:
GameSetAndMath said:
calitennis127 said:
Riotbeard said:
I have been on vacation, but College Football has taken up some attention, but I am still around generally speaking.



I'll never relate to how people like college football as much as they do. The NFL is far better.

I find college football for the most part pretty boring (the NFL players are better) and also very cheesy with the school pageantry. The hypocrisy of the system of so-called "student-athletes" as well as the overblown and wildly exaggerated moral superiority of college athletics is also a major problem in American society.

But that is for the off-topic board I guess.

I agree that "student-athlete" is a joke. However, college football is lot more fun to
watch than NFL as there is more unpredictability, I suppose.

I agree with both of what you are saying. A lot of the pass protection rules in the nfl though have really hurt defense. They need to stop coddling, it's a contact sport.

Cali: Where I grew up we didn't have any pro teams, but we had two of the best college teams, so you grow up watching college football.

Well, we may as well talk about this, since we've done "where the Djokovic fans have gone." (No point in chiding members who aren't around, and just thanks to those that still are.) I think there is a college football thread, but I'll add my 2 cents:

I like college ball because I don't have the feeling that I'm seeing the players on the field with their briefcases and accompanied by their agents. I like the school rah-rah thing. There's plenty of "pageantry" in the NFL, just that it's more professional and calculated, with less history.

RB: I have a friend who played in the NFL and has coached HS for years. He says that football is "not a contact sport, it's a collision sport." He means nothing more by that than reality. I say, however, that it's not bad to protect young men from the future damaging effects of a rough sport.



I cannot stand the impact of commercial college athletics on American education. As someone who both loves sports and values and enjoys education, I can say that major college athletics are simply a cancerous tumor on our universities. The teams are not amateur. They are de facto professional teams, but we as a deluded society lie to ourselves that this is 1924 and we are sending kids to Notre Dame to become "better men" under Knute Rockne, and when they graduate at age 22 they will have become honorable young men who wear a tie and go out to work for Andrew Carnegie.

Well, times have changed. In 1925, they didn't have million-dollar TV contracts and stadiums that held close to 100,000 people. College football and college basketball teams have quite often the same amount of fans and garner the same amount of television revenue as professional teams - so call them what they are: professional teams.

I prefer the NBA and the NFL for their honesty: the players are pros and they get paid for their profession. And yes, while there is pageantry (good point, Moxie), it isn't as corny as having 50,000 people draped in red in Madison, Wisconsin so they can see their big lumbering linemen fall on top of some Minnesotans in a big pile.
 

calitennis127

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GameSetAndMath said:
I agree that "student-athlete" is a joke. However, college football is lot more fun to
watch than NFL as there is more unpredictability, I suppose.



A lot more unpredictability? Like the first four games of the season for major conference teams being against opponents they will beat by at least 30 points?
 
N

NADAL2005RG

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Front242 said:
NADAL2005RG has probably scared them all away.

DISCLAIMER: The post below is in no way demanding anything. I have never done that and nor is it my style.

With that out of the way, I'll state the following: Despite the fact that after a very short while, we've all learned not to take him seriously, he does bring the quality of the conversation down because at some point or another, someone will reply to him (I'm guilty of that as well), in which he will retaliate with something even more silly than his initial post, and it all goes downhill from there. It leads to thread hijacking, and it really puts me off (speaking strictly for myself here) as far as revisiting that thread and continuing whatever previous conversation had been started.

It's quite irritating actually. It's one thing going on tireless arguments with Cali or whatever, because at least actual arguments are being advanced, even if the thread gets derailed. This however, is completely different. Essentially, and I'm sorry for being too blunt here, but many threads are turning into most of us telling him, in one way or another, how stupid his posts are.

You just admitted to spending many threads calling me stupid. You are lucky that I don't point out the number of your posts that I consider to be stupid. See, that's the difference between you and me. I accept the opinion of others, while you mock others for having an opinion that differs to your own. That's the childish approach to debate (not really debate) that you've chosen.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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where are all the djokovic fanatics.?????.

well they vamoosed (and I mean "vamoose" and not "vamos") outta here..

its nadal gloat overload in tennis forum land..not only did the the action-man-hairdo'd-serb lose to rafa/wafa..but he is soon to lose his no1 ranking to the capybara kid as well..

it is double gloom for obsessive chums of the serbinator..while fans of captain vamos 'party'.

so the novak frenzy crew have done a bunk..and sold their soul to punk.

now where is that 100wks at world no1 rank thread >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:idea:/.
 

brokenshoelace

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NADAL2005RG said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Front242 said:
NADAL2005RG has probably scared them all away.

DISCLAIMER: The post below is in no way demanding anything. I have never done that and nor is it my style.

With that out of the way, I'll state the following: Despite the fact that after a very short while, we've all learned not to take him seriously, he does bring the quality of the conversation down because at some point or another, someone will reply to him (I'm guilty of that as well), in which he will retaliate with something even more silly than his initial post, and it all goes downhill from there. It leads to thread hijacking, and it really puts me off (speaking strictly for myself here) as far as revisiting that thread and continuing whatever previous conversation had been started.

It's quite irritating actually. It's one thing going on tireless arguments with Cali or whatever, because at least actual arguments are being advanced, even if the thread gets derailed. This however, is completely different. Essentially, and I'm sorry for being too blunt here, but many threads are turning into most of us telling him, in one way or another, how stupid his posts are.

You just admitted to spending many threads calling me stupid. You are lucky that I don't point out the number of your posts that I consider to be stupid. See, that's the difference between you and me. I accept the opinion of others, while you mock others for having an opinion that differs to your own. That's the childish approach to debate (not really debate) that you've chosen.


I don't mock others' opinion that differs from mine. I mock yours. Big difference.

And please, do point out my posts that you think are stupid from now on. Smarten me up.