What I like about 2014

[Kieran]

Spot on, brother Broken, well said. And let's not forget Gruntgate, and the "classy" way Federer pulled out a shirt with #15 on it straight after defeating Roddick in the Wimbledon final. He's incredibly gracious in victory too, it seems... :nono

 

[brokenshoelace]

The thing is, these guys have been on tour forever, and play within the vicinity of 80 matches per year. Are we really going to bring up every single minor incident and use it against them (and yeah, that's what I did in my previous post, but I was highlighting a point)? Now, yes, a history of questionable medical TO's and the like should be discussed, but criticizing players for looking upset that they lost? Really?

They play 80 matches per year...of course their attitudes are not going to be exemplary all the time. Now please, can we move on and discuss more important things? This is pathetic.

PS: I forgot about that time Federer sat in Novak's chair

 

[Kieran]

But didn't he sit so gracefully!

 

[DarthFed]

There's a lot of Fedfan silliness goes on, which is understandable. They find Rafa hard to take, because he's shown up the absurdities of them thinking their guy is better than he is.

And of course, they mistake a scowl for a pout, because they can nervously mock a pout, but a defiant scowl is more masculine, and their metrosexual hero balks at such forceful stuff. No matter!

Rafa scowls, he 'bukes and scorns, he's the Sulphur, the bully, and the bully club, Thor's hammer, the force of nature, Old Lefty (except when he's called Old Righty Who Plays With His Lefty), The Terrible One, Hellboy, Ye Olde Bass Turd, Nemesis, Lord Wedgie -

Or whatever boot boy nickname you wanna give him.

Save yourself some time: he's the greatest player you've seen until now. Enjoy him, because it's much better to do that than to resist him...

He might be the greatest player you've seen but not me and I speak for many others here too no doubt

The argument gets closer, which is why everyone is so tetchy. Respond to the arguments, fair and square. You've been a bit feathery when faced with a plausible response.

What argument did Kieran make aside from the usual mocking and insults? Are you seriously calling that a plausible response.

As of now there is no real debate as who the greater player is. He could be up 100-0 in the H2H but a 4 slam difference is enormous. Regardless of what posters like Kieran and Huntingyou say there are no extra points handed out for beating player X instead of player Y. Rafa has owned Roger but he has also had way more awful losses than Roger had in his prime and you don't need to look any further than the gem from last Sunday.

Obviously Rafa can and will get closer if not tie/break the record which makes it an easy argument in the other direction.

You're responding to me, not Kieran. I thought I made an argument that was worthy of debate, not as to the GOAT, but as to the other questions…the narrative that people put forward about his injuries, the notion of "excuses," either from the camp for the fan base. I have tried to make plausible and specific arguments in the face of broad generalities. I'd be curious is you have a response to my ideas, as opposed to just one more entry in the Roger-Rafa debate.

I didn't follow this whole thread but I already mentioned that it is ridiculous to criticize someone for being "pouty" or PO'ed after a loss. They are supposed to be like that. I'm someone who doesn't think there should be handshakes in competition if that shows you what side of that argument I'm on.

So what other points were being made? There are many examples of Rafa's questionable at best MTO's. Of course we don't know for a fact that it is pure gamesmanship but we also don't know for a fact that it wasn't. When someone is getting taken to the cleaners and stops the match despite showing no signs of injury then it is more than fair to question what's going on. Rafa has done this many times and that's all there is to it. In fairness, as Broken mentioned, the last really questionable MTO was 2010. But don't think I forgot that circus in 2012 where Rafa suddenly had to take a piss before Roger served for the match.

 

[Moxie]

^I actually mentioned to El Dude above that you were one who said there was nothing wrong with being upset about losing. I don't agree that there are "many" examples of Rafa's questionable MTOs. Everyone keeps coming up with the same two. (Which you do admit were nearly 4 years ago.) And that pee break comes up. To say there are "many" examples, vaguely, plays into the narrative that I'm arguing against. I was thinking much as Broken does: these guys play some 80 matches a year, and for Roger and Rafa that's some 12-14 years, mostly under great scrutiny. Is it fair that certain bad days live in infamy to blacken their reputations? I would say that both have been fairly exemplary while performing for our amusement.

 

[DarthFed]

Monte Carlo 06, Hamburg 08, Petz in '10, and the pee break as well as changing the tape on his foot when he was down 5-2 in the 2011 FO final. It doesn't have to just be an MTO, any instance where there is a clear motive (ie getting your arse kicked) for breaking up play qualifies.

Roger had a noticeable one himself where he went to the commode after a 30 minute 6-2 beatdown in the 1st set against Davydenko in the 2010 AO QF.

 

[El Dude]

Kieran, do you honestly believe that any criticism of Nadal automatically comes down to Federer fans jealously? Not only is that obtuse, its rather insulting.

But here's the problem: we can't discuss Rafa's demeanor without instantly referring to Federer, therefore this turns into another silly round of Rafa vs. Roger - which to me is where tennis fandom loses interest for me. Its just another version of "my dad is stronger than your dad!" yet by grown people (men, mostly). There's not even an attempt at objectivity, but just knee-jerk defenses of one's favorite player.

I mean, here's an honest question (especially for Kieran, who seems to be the most entrenched Nadalite in this conversation): Can you discuss this issue of Rafa without immediately attacking Federer? And its worth noting that Novak has been completely excised from the conversation? Can Rafa fans leave Federer out of it?

But the larger question is this: can we at try to discuss these things without automatically (and blindly) defending our favorite player? Can we at least strive towards objectivity and attempt to eschew jingoism?

Today's the Super Bowl, so there will be plenty of that going around!

 

[Moxie]

Monte Carlo 06, Hamburg 08, Petz in '10, and the pee break as well as changing the tape on his foot when he was down 5-2 in the 2011 FO final. It doesn't have to just be an MTO, any instance where there is a clear motive (ie getting your arse kicked) for breaking up play qualifies.

Roger had a noticeable one himself where he went to the commode after a 30 minute 6-2 beatdown in the 1st set against Davydenko in the 2010 AO QF.

Fair on you for mentioning a Federer one, at least. Monte Carlo and Hamburg were 8 and 6 years ago, respectively, so unless I go back to youtube, you're going to have to remind us…but don't bother. It tells its own story that you still remember them and bring them up. The Petzchner one has been brought up a million times. And getting the tape on your foot changed when you're down? Heaven forfend! If you have tape on your foot in the first place, it's not there as a prophylactic just in case you need an excuse to break rhythm. :cover

@El Dude: I made an attempt at a more fair and even assessment, but no one responds to that.

 

[nehmeth]

What I like about 2014:

I get to see Stefan Edberg again.
Nole didn't rehire Todd Martin
Stan won a slam

 

[britbox]

Agree with others that the thread has got petty and tit for tat.

 

[Moxie]

Threads have been petty all week. Is it the tit for tat that you object to? :laydownlaughing

 

[DarthFed]

Monte Carlo 06, Hamburg 08, Petz in '10, and the pee break as well as changing the tape on his foot when he was down 5-2 in the 2011 FO final. It doesn't have to just be an MTO, any instance where there is a clear motive (ie getting your arse kicked) for breaking up play qualifies.

Roger had a noticeable one himself where he went to the commode after a 30 minute 6-2 beatdown in the 1st set against Davydenko in the 2010 AO QF.

Fair on you for mentioning a Federer one, at least. Monte Carlo and Hamburg were 8 and 6 years ago, respectively, so unless I go back to youtube, you're going to have to remind us…but don't bother. It tells its own story that you still remember them and bring them up. The Petzchner one has been brought up a million times. And getting the tape on your foot changed when you're down? Heaven forfend! If you have tape on your foot in the first place, it's not there as a prophylactic just in case you need an excuse to break rhythm. :cover

@El Dude: I made an attempt at a more fair and even assessment, but no one responds to that.

I remember them because they were blatant cases where there appeared to be no injury before or after. In 06 Roger had just won the 2nd set and in 08 it was 5-1 when Nadal stopped play out of nowhere. That is what makes them questionable. As for the taped ankle a lot of athletes have their ankles taped for preventative measures. That doesn't indicate that they have an injury.

 

[britbox]

Threads have been petty all week. Is it the tit for tat that you object to? :laydownlaughing

It's wasn't my bottle of champagne that needed to be put back on ice. Touche!

 

[Front242]

Keep your tats but give me tits any day :devil

 

[brokenshoelace]

Ah, so now we're discussing tits. There is hope for this thread after all (nothing against the OP by the way, but I have no idea how it turned the way it did).

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Ah, so now we're discussing tits. There is hope for this thread after all (nothing against the OP by the way, but I have no idea how it turned the way it did).

Well, have you not seen Nadal's tits when he took his shirt off in Hamburg in 1875? That was not distracting for the opponent? You are just a fanboy...Nadal does that all the time...Once he took off his shorts in Rome and well, when in Rome...NEVERMIND!!!

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, do you honestly believe that any criticism of Nadal automatically comes down to...

Absolutely!

I mean, here's an honest question (especially for Kieran, who seems to be the most entrenched Nadalite in this conversation): Can you discuss this issue of Rafa without immediately attacking Federer?

Why? We're tribal fans! What I was replying to was the silly stuff about Rafa "pouting" which is just more gloating against, which is fair, my response was fair - it's all good fun and keeps us young!

Novak isn't discussed but stick up a thread, I love discussing other players too. But come on, part of the fun is the tribal drum beating - and you's boys give as good as you get in that regard.

But the larger question is this:

Tit.

Truth! And I'm with my old mucker Front on that one! :snigger

 

[brokenshoelace]

Ah, so now we're discussing tits. There is hope for this thread after all (nothing against the OP by the way, but I have no idea how it turned the way it did).

Well, have you not seen Nadal's tits when he took his shirt off in Hamburg in 1875? That was not distracting for the opponent? You are just a fanboy...Nadal does that all the time...Once he took off his shorts in Rome and well, when in Rome...NEVERMIND!!!

I'm usually too busy staring at his ass to finally crack (ha! puns) the mystery and find out what's wrong with it.

 

[El Dude]

If we're discussing tits, shouldn't we be in the WTA forum? Sorry, but Rafa's got nothing on them.

 

[House]

So what on Earth happened to you guys while I was away?

Don't remember this type of anamosity before.

"My dad can beat up your dad!!!!"

"Nuhuh, my dad's the strongest guy in the world!!!"

Round and a round and around....