US Politics Thread

britbox

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Nothing new there really. Vanity Fair, while an entertaining gossip column is pretty much a fake news site itself. I get daily email notifications from VF Hive and was bombarded with (and still am bombarded with) pro-Clinton messages.

It's kind of laughable that these publications complain of propaganda when they were as guilty of it as any... I also notice none of them complained about propaganda that was pro-Clinton...

The hacking thing as I've pointed out is a red herring.

You make a valid point about news on that "anything goes" but that worked both ways and was actually more in favour of Clinton. Also, mainstream media have thrown themselves into this sink hole of dross.CNN can't teally put themselves on a higher plane than RT these days following their conduct during the campaign.
 

Federberg

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Nothing new there really. Vanity Fair, while an entertaining gossip column is pretty much a fake news site itself. I get daily email notifications from VF Hive and was bombarded with (and still am bombarded with) pro-Clinton messages.

It's kind of laughable that these publications complain of propaganda when they were as guilty of it as any... I also notice none of them complained about propaganda that was pro-Clinton...

The hacking thing as I've pointed out is a red herring.

You make a valid point about news on that "anything goes" but that worked both ways and was actually more in favour of Clinton. Also, mainstream media have thrown themselves into this sink hole of dross.CNN can't teally put themselves on a higher plane than RT these days following their conduct during the campaign.

Hilarious how you zero in on Vanity Fair. I would rather focus on established outfits like WO and The Independent. But it's interesting in this era of untruthiness how everything mainstream is summarily dismissed. I don't think you've pointed out anything about hacking. With all due respect I'll continue to assign a higher value to the opinion of US intelligence agencies than your own ;-):
 

britbox

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Hilarious how you zero in on Vanity Fair. I would rather focus on established outfits like WO and The Independent. But it's interesting in this era of untruthiness how everything mainstream is summarily dismissed. I don't think you've pointed out anything about hacking. With all due respect I'll continue to assign a higher value to the opinion of US intelligence agencies than your own ;-):

If you don't want it commented on or aren't prepared to defend it then don't post it!
 

britbox

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Hilarious how you zero in on Vanity Fair. I would rather focus on established outfits like WO and The Independent. But it's interesting in this era of untruthiness how everything mainstream is summarily dismissed. I don't think you've pointed out anything about hacking. With all due respect I'll continue to assign a higher value to the opinion of US intelligence agencies than your own ;-):

I pointed out that the Intelligence Agencies didn't categorically state it was Russia. They said the hack was similar to techniques that the Russians had previously employed. The hack was a basic phishing attack... These are widely used all over the world. They are very simply put together and rely on the receiver of the attack's own stupidity.

Anyhow, I am not remotely concerned whether it was the Russians or not... all these countries are trying to hack each other 24/7 in any event.

The Americans are probably the worse culprits of all for hacking other governments and for interfering in foreign elections. This is another smokescreen to try and deflect away from yet another election defeat. What next? an advert on the side of a bus?
 
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Elector to resign rather than vote Trump

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/texas-elector-art-sisneros-to-resign-instead-of-voting-for-donald-trump/ar-AAkRIX1?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

A Republican elector from Texas says he is resigning his position instead of casting his vote for Donald Trump, calling the Electoral College "corrupted from its original intent" and saying voting for the president-elect would "bring dishonor to God."

Art Sisneros was considering in August the possibility of becoming a so-called faithless elector, meaning he would refuse to vote for Trump if the GOP candidate won the Lone Star State and its 38 electoral votes in November.

In a Saturday blog post on his website, Sisneros said he had decided he was not comfortable defying his pledge to vote for his party's nominee, but neither could he cast his vote for Trump.

"Since I can't in good conscience vote for Donald Trump, and yet have sinfully made a pledge that I would, the best option I see at this time is to resign my position as an elector," Sisneros wrote. "This will allow the remaining body of electors to fill my vacancy when they convene on Dec. 19 with someone that can vote for Trump."

His decision followed a previous post in which he posed the question of whether it was "acceptable for a Christian to vote for a man like Trump for president," and concluded that he could not "in good conscience" do so.

"I do not see how Donald Trump is biblically qualified to serve in the office of the presidency," he said in his Saturday post. "Of the hundreds of angry messages that I have received, not one has made a convincing case from Scripture otherwise. If Trump is not qualified and my role, both morally and historically, as an elected official is to vote my conscience, then I cannot and will not vote for Donald Trump for president."

In the lengthy post, Sisneros explained his frustration with both progressives' and conservatives' approaches to the Electoral College and the failure to use the body in the way the founders intended, which Sisneros likened to parents acting "in the best interest of their children" even if in some cases their children desire otherwise.

"In most homes, kids do not have the right to eat Skittles for dinner. It is not in their best interest," he wrote.

"The people will get their vote. They will get their Skittles for dinner," he said. "I will sleep well at night knowing I neither gave in to their demands nor caved to my convictions. I will also mourn the loss of our republic."

Meanwhile, a separate movement is openly lobbying for enough electors to refuse to vote for Trump.

Calling themselves the Hamilton Electors – a nod to Alexander Hamilton’s explanation of the Electoral College’s job as to ensure “the office of the President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications” – the group spurred by Democratic electors hopes to trigger the selection of another candidate through electors either changing their votes or abstaining from voting for Trump.

Electors are set to meet in their respective states across the country on Dec. 19 to formally cast their votes for president.

Copyright 2016 U.S. News & World Report
 

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There are obviously two parallel struggles here. Besides the political one, we see mainstream media trying very hard to kill the competition they are getting from non-mainstream ones. They simply were smart enough to fuse the two struggles in to one.

I say non-mainstream instead of "independent" on purpose. True independent media, if exists, is a statistical anomaly. I am sorry, but I really laugh when I read anyone quote "independent experts". And, don´t worry, both (political) sides do exactly the same.

For example, I guess it was in this same thread that some poster quoted a newspaper story were an "independent expert" made an analysis on Trump´s tax revamp. While I do not give a sh!t for Trump himself, I took care enough to compare his tax structure with the current one, checked a bit of the income distribution (all this from the original sources) and found out, in five minutes, that the claims of the "independent expert" were completely false.

It is all about constructing a narrative that barely fits into some facts. Leaders world wide manifest their support to one side or another. I saw the Italian PM saying out loud on Italian TV he supported Hillary. There is Mafia in Italy, ergo Mafia was supporting Hillary. Putin says he likes Trump, there are hackers in Russia, ergo the former Soviet Union is rising from the ashes to take on USA.

How can we, on the same conversation that we admit that mainstream media tried (and failed) to elect one candidate (Federberg even complained about the incompetence of the 4th state), that a lot of fake news were created to take down this same candidate, base our arguments on the media itself! it is almost like saying "everything I say is a lie, including this, so trust me!".

Honestly, I do not care that much about biased media. Once you get used to it, you can relatively easy compensate the bias. Non-mainstream media is useful because it gives other kind of bias, (not because it tells "the truth", as some would like).

All of this to say: bias is part of the conversation and needs to be taken in to consideration, one way or the other.

But, back to the point, even if we admit that some foreign power is producing fake news on social media to influence the election, I find it much worse when a self-proclaimed unbiased mainstream media network manipulates the narrative with a purpose. Rumours on internet do not have any claim of legitimacy. Nobody can be held accountable for it, and people now that. Mainstream media still have some kind of legitimacy, so, morally speaking (if you allow me the poetic license), it is even worse.

I live in a country which political history was dramatically changed by coup (1964), and it is now public information that a foreign power (in this case, the US), was an important part of it. It surely sucks, and it robbed the country years in search for political maturity (not yet found). So, in this sense I agree that the issue is serious and should be always a concern for any country. On the other hand, the "evidence" presented to the public is too much partisan to be taken seriously. Of course, with this I am just yelling my opinion, I would need a thorough analysis to support such claim, for which I surely do not have the time (neither the energy). But the links above are only better than that if you chose to believe their sources.
 

britbox

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Honestly, I do not care that much about biased media. Once you get used to it, you can relatively easy compensate the bias. Non-mainstream media is useful because it gives other kind of bias, (not because it tells "the truth", as some would like).

All of this to say: bias is part of the conversation and needs to be taken in to consideration, one way or the other.

Totally agree. Excellent post. I watch quite a lot of RT... I don't take it as gospel at all, I know it's biased toward presenting a Russian perspective ( a largely Russian government perspective to be specific).... but that doesn't mean it's not useful. It reports with a perspective that lots of western media ignore. It helps you get more than one angle on an issue.
 
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There are obviously two parallel struggles here. Besides the political one, we see mainstream media trying very hard to kill the competition they are getting from non-mainstream ones. They simply were smart enough to fuse the two struggles in to one.

I say non-mainstream instead of "independent" on purpose. True independent media, if exists, is a statistical anomaly. I am sorry, but I really laugh when I read anyone quote "independent experts". And, don´t worry, both (political) sides do exactly the same.

For example, I guess it was in this same thread that some poster quoted a newspaper story were an "independent expert" made an analysis on Trump´s tax revamp. While I do not give a sh!t for Trump himself, I took care enough to compare his tax structure with the current one, checked a bit of the income distribution (all this from the original sources) and found out, in five minutes, that the claims of the "independent expert" were completely false.

It is all about constructing a narrative that barely fits into some facts. Leaders world wide manifest their support to one side or another. I saw the Italian PM saying out loud on Italian TV he supported Hillary. There is Mafia in Italy, ergo Mafia was supporting Hillary. Putin says he likes Trump, there are hackers in Russia, ergo the former Soviet Union is rising from the ashes to take on USA.

How can we, on the same conversation that we admit that mainstream media tried (and failed) to elect one candidate (Federberg even complained about the incompetence of the 4th state), that a lot of fake news were created to take down this same candidate, base our arguments on the media itself! it is almost like saying "everything I say is a lie, including this, so trust me!".

Honestly, I do not care that much about biased media. Once you get used to it, you can relatively easy compensate the bias. Non-mainstream media is useful because it gives other kind of bias, (not because it tells "the truth", as some would like).

All of this to say: bias is part of the conversation and needs to be taken in to consideration, one way or the other.

But, back to the point, even if we admit that some foreign power is producing fake news on social media to influence the election, I find it much worse when a self-proclaimed unbiased mainstream media network manipulates the narrative with a purpose. Rumours on internet do not have any claim of legitimacy. Nobody can be held accountable for it, and people now that. Mainstream media still have some kind of legitimacy, so, morally speaking (if you allow me the poetic license), it is even worse.

I live in a country which political history was dramatically changed by coup (1964), and it is now public information that a foreign power (in this case, the US), was an important part of it. It surely sucks, and it robbed the country years in search for political maturity (not yet found). So, in this sense I agree that the issue is serious and should be always a concern for any country. On the other hand, the "evidence" presented to the public is too much partisan to be taken seriously. Of course, with this I am just yelling my opinion, I would need a thorough analysis to support such claim, for which I surely do not have the time (neither the energy). But the links above are only better than that if you chose to believe their sources.

Great post.
 

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Hilarious how you zero in on Vanity Fair. I would rather focus on established outfits like WO and The Independent. But it's interesting in this era of untruthiness how everything mainstream is summarily dismissed. I don't think you've pointed out anything about hacking. With all due respect I'll continue to assign a higher value to the opinion of US intelligence agencies than your own ;-):

shit i forgot to add Vanity Fair to my list for source of info. well done, thanks for your very precious reminder and advise.
 

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The journalists lie! I know it is hard to believe for some, I'll point out the "respective" USA Today's Jack Kelley, who resigned because his employers decided he had deceived his editors and probably fabricated information in his reports from over 90 countries, including Serbia. The cause for investigating Kelly was his article, “UN: Reports connect Serbs to war crimes,” which Kelly filed from Belgrade on July 14, 1999.

In the article, Kelley said he talked to a human rights activist in Belgrade, who had allegedly received a confession from a Serbian soldier that he had orders to commit ethnic cleansing. Internal investigation established that Kelly never met the activist. Kelly claimed to have interviewed the activist, but as he could not find the translator who was supposedly present at the conversation to confirm the story, he asked a friend – also a translator – to lie to the editors and pass herself off as the witness. Kelly explained this fraud by “panic” that had seized him because of the investigation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kelley_(journalist)
 

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When intelligence agencies bother to mention a specific country it implies a level of seriousness that can't just simply be dismissed as "silly" in my view. As far as I'm concerned this election cycle has been interesting and historical for many many reasons, but for me everything pales into insignificance when I consider that there is a chance that the former superpower rival of the United States of America might have directly or indirectly influenced a US Presidential election. The fact that some people dismiss it because it doesn't fit a narrative they are comfortable with is another one of the more bizarre sub-plots for me. Particularly when it is reported that the Russians have done the same to a number of European countries

I hope you realize that one cannot hack into the US electoral system for a number of reasons:
1. We actually have 50 state-wide electoral systems and if you divide that by county they you have about 3300. There is, in other words, no single system.
2. Counties and localities that use electronic ballot systems are not online so I can't see how someone can hack into a system that is not connected to the internet.
3. If the Russians want to change the outcome of a US election they'd literally have to break into the offices where these are held and try to change them before hand. Unfortunately for them, the electronic ones are encrypted.

Both the Secretary of State for Penn and the Obama Administration said this very thing. In fact, the Obama Administration is against a recount and call these efforts counterproductive. I suspect they don't want recounts since there is some evidence that illegals have voted and the extent of this crime may be revealed with a recount.

Finally, I don't think Stein and Hilldog are going to get there way in the stat e of Penn since the deadline to file for a recount was Nov. 21.
 

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I hope you realize that one cannot hack into the US electoral system for a number of reasons:
1. We actually have 50 state-wide electoral systems and if you divide that by county they you have about 3300. There is, in other words, no single system.
2. Counties and localities that use electronic ballot systems are not online so I can't see how someone can hack into a system that is not connected to the internet.
3. If the Russians want to change the outcome of a US election they'd literally have to break into the offices where these are held and try to change them before hand. Unfortunately for them, the electronic ones are encrypted.

Both the Secretary of State for Penn and the Obama Administration said this very thing. In fact, the Obama Administration is against a recount and call these efforts counterproductive. I suspect they don't want recounts since there is some evidence that illegals have voted and the extent of this crime may be revealed with a recount.

Finally, I don't think Stein and Hilldog are going to get there way in the stat e of Penn since the deadline to file for a recount was Nov. 21.

Hey, Asmodeus, I got the chance to reply to you directly, so I use it to congratulate you about your post #1085 on this thread. It is the best piece of political analysis I've read in a long time.

But, back to the topic on your post above, I have bad news. Once the "hacked ballot" gets in to the conversation, forget it, it won´t come out, no matter what you say (I mean, outside this board. Here we have a fair share of posters who actually listens to what the other "side" is saying). For the losing side of an election, it is too tempting an argument not to be made.

It is a perfect hunting ground for irresponsible journalism. Since it is "electronic", hence you can hack it. People hack systems everyday, right? So everyone will believe this.

But the part they are missing is that those systems, as you put it, are not online. They are not physically on line. So the whole story does not make sense. Does it mean it is completely impossible to fraud it? No, it doesn´t. But it surely would no be they way they´re saying (again, as you already stated)...

Brazil (where I live and was born) was the first country in the world to use electronic voting machines. The system is 100% electronic since, I guess, the end of 90´s. Around 2010 the urban myth about fraud on those machines gained strength. It is, I admit, a bit better story than the one we are arguing about. According to it, the voting machines are made to be fraudulent.

The funny thing is that this story was sustained by the side that was opposition up until the recent impeachment (which is the right wing). They forget that the voting machines were put in place not by the party which they were opposing (center left), but by a party they fully supported when in power (center right). Also, they´re forgetting that the local states control the machines, and in much of those states they are in power.

Again, it is impossible to fraud them? Surely no. Does the claims makes sense? not even after mixing LSD with Ecstasy. Will people ever stop making them? No.

@Federberg : when I say "people" I am obviously not referring to you directly. You brought the subject (believing your sources), but will surely change your opinion on this topic the moment you believe you were shown enough evidence and arguments (as I hope everyone in this discussion will). As you know, this is not the general rule, hence I used the world "people" truly meaning it.
 
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I hope you realize that one cannot hack into the US electoral system for a number of reasons:
1. We actually have 50 state-wide electoral systems and if you divide that by county they you have about 3300. There is, in other words, no single system.
2. Counties and localities that use electronic ballot systems are not online so I can't see how someone can hack into a system that is not connected to the internet.
3. If the Russians want to change the outcome of a US election they'd literally have to break into the offices where these are held and try to change them before hand. Unfortunately for them, the electronic ones are encrypted.

Both the Secretary of State for Penn and the Obama Administration said this very thing. In fact, the Obama Administration is against a recount and call these efforts counterproductive. I suspect they don't want recounts since there is some evidence that illegals have voted and the extent of this crime may be revealed with a recount.

Finally, I don't think Stein and Hilldog are going to get there way in the stat e of Penn since the deadline to file for a recount was Nov. 21.

I do realise that the electoral system can't be hacked on a macro level. What I believe some of these experts are saying is that it can be hacked on a micro level. One of the comments Stein made in an interview is that some of the counting techniques being used in Wisconsin and Michigan (?) have been declared illegal in other states. Some of these people analysed the results of the elections in Wisconsin and some other close states and found that there was a statistically significant variance between the counts in areas where Clinton won which tended to be manual counts versus where Trump won which tended to be electronic. Am I saying there was hacking? No! (frankly who cares what I think). I'm just passing on what I've heard about the rationale for this recount exercise
 
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Federberg

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There are obviously two parallel struggles here. Besides the political one, we see mainstream media trying very hard to kill the competition they are getting from non-mainstream ones. They simply were smart enough to fuse the two struggles in to one.

I say non-mainstream instead of "independent" on purpose. True independent media, if exists, is a statistical anomaly. I am sorry, but I really laugh when I read anyone quote "independent experts". And, don´t worry, both (political) sides do exactly the same.

For example, I guess it was in this same thread that some poster quoted a newspaper story were an "independent expert" made an analysis on Trump´s tax revamp. While I do not give a sh!t for Trump himself, I took care enough to compare his tax structure with the current one, checked a bit of the income distribution (all this from the original sources) and found out, in five minutes, that the claims of the "independent expert" were completely false.

It is all about constructing a narrative that barely fits into some facts. Leaders world wide manifest their support to one side or another. I saw the Italian PM saying out loud on Italian TV he supported Hillary. There is Mafia in Italy, ergo Mafia was supporting Hillary. Putin says he likes Trump, there are hackers in Russia, ergo the former Soviet Union is rising from the ashes to take on USA.

How can we, on the same conversation that we admit that mainstream media tried (and failed) to elect one candidate (Federberg even complained about the incompetence of the 4th state), that a lot of fake news were created to take down this same candidate, base our arguments on the media itself! it is almost like saying "everything I say is a lie, including this, so trust me!".

Honestly, I do not care that much about biased media. Once you get used to it, you can relatively easy compensate the bias. Non-mainstream media is useful because it gives other kind of bias, (not because it tells "the truth", as some would like).

All of this to say: bias is part of the conversation and needs to be taken in to consideration, one way or the other.

But, back to the point, even if we admit that some foreign power is producing fake news on social media to influence the election, I find it much worse when a self-proclaimed unbiased mainstream media network manipulates the narrative with a purpose. Rumours on internet do not have any claim of legitimacy. Nobody can be held accountable for it, and people now that. Mainstream media still have some kind of legitimacy, so, morally speaking (if you allow me the poetic license), it is even worse.

I live in a country which political history was dramatically changed by coup (1964), and it is now public information that a foreign power (in this case, the US), was an important part of it. It surely sucks, and it robbed the country years in search for political maturity (not yet found). So, in this sense I agree that the issue is serious and should be always a concern for any country. On the other hand, the "evidence" presented to the public is too much partisan to be taken seriously. Of course, with this I am just yelling my opinion, I would need a thorough analysis to support such claim, for which I surely do not have the time (neither the energy). But the links above are only better than that if you chose to believe their sources.

Great post. I feel the same way. I get my information from a wide variety of sources including RT. But the issue isn't about "us" per se. Generally on this forum I would guess that the participants are competent enough to handle today's information flow and come to a reasonable conclusion. Obviously I might come to a different conclusion based on exactly the same information. We all have our biases. My concern is that in the recent election cycle, far too many have based their views on sources that slant the news in very specific ways. If the goal is the truth then this represents a clear danger to democracy everywhere. I'm just amazed that so many people are comfortable with this. I would make one point about the "mainstream" media versus alternative sources... these are accredited journalists and at least in theory their work should be impartial. If there are falsehoods in their work, they can and should be challenged. The information from alternative sources make no such pretenses. They don't have to write anything that's factual or corroborated. We are going down a very dangerous path if people discard the mainstream media in it's entirety
 
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Federberg

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This is topical....

False News

Nov 28, 2016

Since the election this month of Donald Trump as the US president, something considered to be a new phenomenon has become a focus of attention. Some suspect that false news may have swayed the election. Perhaps equally as important, some claim this false news was planted by Russian intelligence under orders of President Vladimir Putin, who allegedly supported Trump’s election.

Given that a recount of votes in some states is likely—with some saying Russians might have hacked voting machines—it increasingly is not simply a matter of politics but of geopolitics.

During the Korean War, the Soviets planted a false story that the United States was using biological weapons in Korea. In those days, such stories were planted in newspapers.

For example, an Indian journalist might be induced to publish a story quoting American generals who had visited India, stating that Korea was a perfect testing ground for germ warfare. Once the article was published, other newspapers might begin quoting the Indian story.

As the news circulated around the world, the reference became prestigious British or French newspapers. The story would no longer quote its forgotten origins in India and would now be treated as credible—if not quite news. The quoted generals would be asked for interviews and refuse them.

Useful Idiots
By the time the story made US newspapers, it would focus on the generals’ refusal to confirm or deny the use of chemical weapons in Korea. A lie had become accepted truth. But it’s actually not true. The story was adopted full-bore by communists around the world,as well as sympathizers, and those whom Vladimir Lenin called “useful idiots.”

These useful idiots were not communists, but were prepared to believe whatever they heard that portrayed the West as monsters. They were priceless to the Soviets since communists were always suspected of being pro-Soviet for some reason. But the useful idiots were not communists. They simply would believe anything. But alas, over time, the public came to know who they were, and they were lumped in with the communists.

For all the efforts of Soviet intelligence—including a great deal spent on agitprop—the Korean story had no impact. As widely as the story was dispersed, it was only believed by those who wanted to believe it, and they primarily spoke to each other.

The communists were part of a mass, global movement, but it was an oddly isolated mass movement. It is in the nature of committed believers not to talk to those who don’t believe—beyond lecturing them on why they should believe. People who did not believe in communism paid little attention to communist propaganda.

Given ideological fragmentation, the primary effect of agitprop (or disinformation) is to give believers another point to discuss with each other. It has surprisingly little effect in changing people’s minds.

Witnessing Propaganda
I was personally caught in a bit of Russian disinformation following the events in Ukraine. While visiting Moscow, I was interviewed by the leading business paper there,Kommersant.

Discussingthe US role in Ukraine, I answered a question by saying, “If this was a coup, it was the most blatant coup in history, since the Americans were quite open in supporting the demonstrators.”

Kommersantpublished it fairly close to what I said. ButSputnik, a Russian government outlet, quoted me as saying that Ukraine “was the most blatant coup in history.” Saying it was taken out of context is so lame. The problem is that I was a completely unimportant observer, andSputnikpromoted me to someone significant. Otherwise, who would pay attention to anything I said?

Unlike the Korean case, the Ukraine story left newspapers and entered the web, where it was incredibly widely circulated and totally ignored. And in this, I include not only myself, but also many other preposterous stories the Russians have pushed out in the past few years. I personally was hoping to pick up some subscribers from it. Alas, no one has ever brought up the incident with me—even though it was retweeted all over the place and is still out there.

The Echo Chamber
Social media has two defects from the standpoint of disinformation. The first is that people tend to only read and follow things with which they already agree. The number of people who consume information with which they disagree is fairly small.

Social media is vast but has massive walls, not only according to interest, but especially according to technology. That means—as with the Korea story—the only people who believed I said whatSputnikquoted were people who already thought it was a blatant coup, and Lenin’s useful idiots—who are present on the outskirts of any ideology. A million views worldwide means mostly that everyone who is ideologically aligned had seen it. The very ideological divide that frightens us serves to contain news in social media.

The second defect is the sheer volume of noise on the internet. In the 1950s, three networks existed, along with a few newspapers that others copied. It was much harder to plant a story on CBS, but the output of CBS was extremely loud with few competing noises.

It is now hard to hear anything above the roar, and the chances of reaching those you want to reach—and persuading them of something in the few characters allowed by a tweet—is limited. The internet is a wonderful place to communicate with those who agree and know how to find you. It is not so good at finding and persuading those who don’t agree.

So, the story of an FBI agent who had been investigating Hillary Clinton and was found dead with his wife, likely would be believed by someone who thought Clinton was a monster. Someone pro-Clinton—or even neutral—likely never saw it, and certainly wouldn’t have believed it. The idea that these stories were decisive in the presidential election is dubious. They were, however, useful in building a sense of alarm at Trump’s victory among those who voted against him.

Putin’s Paranoia
It is not surprising that Putin would attempt to play with the election. First, he believes the US is constantly intruding on domestic Russian politics by forming small political groups (nongovernmental organizations) to shape elections. He undoubtedly wanted to pay back the US for that.

Putin particularly dislikes Clinton for what he perceives as condescending behavior. But as with the other actions, the released leaks confirmed everything her enemies believed and enraged her supporters. The election turned on the Rust Belt and more important issues.

If Putin was involved in this disinformation, it would not be a move of strength, but rather weakness. I already have explained in recent articles why the Russians are weak and why Putin wants to project an appearance of significance where he can. He did manage to make himself appear looming over the US election, but the ability of disinformation to determine elections or other things is severely limited.

Lies are primarily believed by those who want to believe them and frequently make opponents stronger by fueling a sense of outrage over the fact that they are lies. They basically leave everything in place.

To the extent that Putin actually cared who won, I would urge Trump supporters not to regard Putin’s praise as something to be proud of. Putin undoubtedly wanted the least capable opponent. Of course, Putin is an extremely poor judge of US politicians and personalities. As an old KGB man, he is far too paranoid to trust anyone.

I regard the false news issue as a red herring. False news has always existed, and some of it comes from governments. It never has been particularly effective in changing the behavior of nations. I would strongly argue that social media, with its tribes and noise, makes effective disinformation that much harder. But as the US is in a mood to panic, it’s as good a subject as any.
 

britbox

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Interesting post @Federberg and I think you're spot on with false news and certain narratives (including Government induced ones)... and this dates back to the beginning of time. The "Truth" is kind of a blurred concept in any event. People have different interpretations of data to form a "truth". I don't agree with the post where Putin wanted to "make himself appear looming over the US Election" - he denied any Russian involvement on numerous occasions, but I have no doubt he had a preferred candidate (Trump) and for good reason, given the rhetoric of both candidates.
 

Federberg

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Interesting post @Federberg and I think you're spot on with false news and certain narratives (including Government induced ones)... and this dates back to the beginning of time. The "Truth" is kind of a blurred concept in any event. People have different interpretations of data to form a "truth". I don't agree with the post where Putin wanted to "make himself appear looming over the US Election" - he denied any Russian involvement on numerous occasions, but I have no doubt he had a preferred candidate (Trump) and for good reason, given the rhetoric of both candidates.

just to be clear, I didn't write that. I subscribe to a whole host of foreign policy experts. Pays to be fully informed about market moving scenarios in my business :)
 

britbox

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Yeah I know... but it also got me thinking about government inducing narratives. Growing up I was always under the impression Britain/US won World War 2... when you become more informed about the events, you realise that although we happened to be on the side of the victors, it was basically the German capitulation when invading Russia that was the defining moment that won the war... at least in the European theatre.
 
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