US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

The Center for Reproductive Rights is a far left abortion advocacy group, I can guess what they want. The far left are the ones you need to examine more closely, their outcomes are always negative…

Abortion RIGHTS advocacy, I'm sure meant. Sorry...I should have been clear: it's the actual court case filed.

I don't think anyone here has disputed that late term terminations can be necessary for medical reasons and even where some sort of sexual violence/molestation has occurred. Not sure where you're going with that. I would like to see the stats for the aforementioned versus what I would consider to be more elective abortions. That's the issue, and I'm pretty sure you already understand the nuance that has been repeatedly stated here. It seems like poor taste to use this example of this poor poor woman to push an agenda

I'm not re-examining our positions on abortion. I'm discussing the health effects of these laws on women's health. The link is to another suit, not the Katie Cox one, this with the cases of more than a dozen other women in TX. I thought it might help to see the actual harm done to women by taking away their rights to proper health care and the rights of their doctors to provide it.

 

[Kieran]

Abortion RIGHTS advocacy, I'm sure meant. Sorry...I should have been clear: it's the actual court case filed.

No, I meant abortion advocacy group, and I know that it’s the case they filed.

You should be wary of the far left, don’t take them at face value, you’ve seen so many examples of how they disrupt…

 

[Federberg]

Abortion RIGHTS advocacy, I'm sure meant. Sorry...I should have been clear: it's the actual court case filed.

I'm not re-examining our positions on abortion. I'm discussing the health effects of these laws on women's health. The link is to another suit, not the Katie Cox one, this with the cases of more than a dozen other women in TX. I thought it might help to see the actual harm done to women by taking away their rights to proper health care and the rights of their doctors to provide it.

who here is arguing for women's rights to be taken away from them? You keep trying to conflate health care and elective abortions. An elective abortion is not health care. It's a life style choice. Even then, most of us aren't interfering with women's choices, particularly if it's done in a timely manner. You know perfectly well what we're saying, we couldn't be clearer

 

[Moxie]

No, I meant abortion advocacy group, and I know that it’s the case they filed.

They advocate for reproductive freedom, according to their mission statement, including the right to abortion. No one advocates for abortion. No one says, "Hey, why be pregnant when you can get one of our fun, lefty abortions? Why not get pregnant just so you can have one of our excellent abortions? Try it...you'll like it!" They advocate for the rights of women to have abortions if they need them or choose them. They advocate for access to birth control, and, yes, access to abortion.

You should be wary of the far left, don’t take them at face value, you’ve seen so many examples of how they disrupt…

In the case of a group that champions women's reproductive freedom, including the right to access to abortion, how are you not going to classify them as "far-left?" (And this IS your classification.) They get a high rating in terms of charity groups. Name me one group in the US that advocates for a woman's right to abortion access in this country that you wouldn't consider "far left."

Your own position on abortion would be considered rather far right in this country. So feel free to examine that, too. I posted something about the consequences of far-right policy on women's health. It's an official court document. I'm fine if you don't read it. I didn't post it for you.

 

[Moxie]

who here is arguing for women's rights to be taken away from them? You keep trying to conflate health care and elective abortions. An elective abortion is not health care. It's a life style choice. Even then, most of us aren't interfering with women's choices, particularly if it's done in a timely manner. You know perfectly well what we're saying, we couldn't be clearer

I posted that document because of my own personal concern, and outrage. In US politics, there is a lot of propaganda about late-term abortions. I'm speaking to general US politics. This is not about you and Kieran. We post things here that raise our concerns, or interest. I find this concerning.

On the topic at hand, I'm not conflating women's health care with elective abortion. I'm talking very specifically about non-elective abortions, the denial of them, and the consequences of that. Try not to take it personally, but do try to recognize my argument for what it is.

To your other point, I do believe that abortion is part of women's healthcare, and that tougher laws on abortion reduce women's access to general healthcare. OB/GYNs are leaving red states in droves post-Roe. Clinics are closing. People and places that provide not only abortions, but annual gynecological screenings, PAP smears, general health checks, prenatal and postnatal care, birth control, etc. I'm not artificially conflating abortion, of any kind, with women's healthcare. I'm telling you that they are inextricably linked in the US.

 

[Fiero425]

who here is arguing for women's rights to be taken away from them? You keep trying to conflate health care and elective abortions. An elective abortion is not health care. It's a life style choice. Even then, most of us aren't interfering with women's choices, particularly if it's done in a timely manner. You know perfectly well what we're saying, we couldn't be clearer

Elective, but sometimes necessary to save the life of the mother! Plastic surgery is something totally electible, but suing for minor errors happen more often than not! I don't think people have a leg to stand on either way, but it still happens! We elect these fools to make laws that make no fk'n sense! I have little to no sympathy for any concerned! She prob. supported the legislation until she needed a waiver due to her circumstances!

 

[britbox]

They advocate for reproductive freedom, according to their mission statement, including the right to abortion. No one advocates for abortion. No one says, "Hey, why be pregnant when you can get one of our fun, lefty abortions? Why not get pregnant just so you can have one of our excellent abortions? Try it...you'll like it!" They advocate for the rights of women to have abortions if they need them or choose them. They advocate for access to birth control, and, yes, access to abortion.

In the case of a group that champions women's reproductive freedom, including the right to access to abortion, how are you not going to classify them as "far-left?" (And this IS your classification.) They get a high rating in terms of charity groups. Name me one group in the US that advocates for a woman's right to abortion access in this country that you wouldn't consider "far left."

Your own position on abortion would be considered rather far right in this country. So feel free to examine that, too. I posted something about the consequences of far-right policy on women's health. It's an official court document. I'm fine if you don't read it. I didn't post it for you.

Everyone has access to Birth Control. There is a simple universal principle called the Law of Cause and Effect.

 

[Moxie]

Everyone has access to Birth Control. There is a simple universal principle called the Law of Cause and Effect.

You don't have access to reasonably reliable birth control if you don't have easy access to cheap heath care, for a lot of women in the US. You probably live where there's better healthcare. Ok, there are condoms, which some men object to, and there's always the rhythm method. Or abstinence. But if you want the Pill, or an IUD, you need a doctor.

 

[britbox]

You don't have access to reasonably reliable birth control if you don't have easy access to cheap heath care, for a lot of women in the US. You probably live where there's better healthcare. Ok, there are condoms, which some men object to, and there's always the rhythm method. Or abstinence. But if you want the Pill, or an IUD, you need a doctor.

Everyone has access to personal responsibility.

 

[Fiero425]

Everyone has access to Birth Control. There is a simple universal principle called the Law of Cause and Effect.

All that education and sophistication & women are found to still be special kinds of idiots! Multiple birth controls are out there w/ abortion pills, but they're still dealing w/ unwanted pregnancies! It's worse in the Black community where these fools have multiple kids w/ multiple fathers; NONE as husbands! I just SMH saying to myself, "the more things change, the more they stay the same" in this circumstance of life! WTF?

 

[Moxie]

Everyone has access to personal responsibility.

I'm not clear what you mean by that.

 

[Moxie]

All that education and sophistication & women are found to still be special kinds of idiots! Multiple birth controls are out there w/ abortion pills, but they're still dealing w/ unwanted pregnancies! It's worse in the Black community where these fools have multiple kids w/ multiple fathers; NONE as husbands! I just SMH saying to myself, "the more things change, the more they stay the same" in this circumstance of life! WTF?

You do understand that there is no infallible form of birth control, right? But, of course, it's only the women who are idiots. They DO have partners in this. It's just the women that get stuck with the check.

 

[britbox]

I'm not clear what you mean by that.

If you haven't got protection, don't want unintended consequences then don't engage in the act. Good grief, isn't this straightforward common sense?

Are we in such a degenerate society where we have literally have no self control or responsibility? It looks like it. Nobody wants to address the root causes of anything these days (not just abortions) - they just want to pay for a pill that "fixes" things. It's a key indicator of where we are in the cycle of western civilization, and it's not a good look. All other empires went through the same cycle.

 

[Moxie]

If you haven't got protection, don't want unintended consequences then don't engage in the act. Good grief, isn't this straightforward common sense?

Are we in such a degenerate society where we have literally have no self control or responsibility? It looks like it. Nobody wants to address the root causes of anything these days (not just abortions) - they just want to pay for a pill that "fixes" things. It's a key indicator of where we are in the cycle of western civilization, and it's not a good look. All other empires went through the same cycle.

OK, so you're advocating for abstention from sex. One of the most basic human inclinations. And not just in "western civilization." For everyone who doesn't want a child as the outcome. Obviously, or not, for you, this excludes non-consensual sex, such as rape and incest?

Also, and this is not aimed at you, but I find this a convenient position for middle-aged men, who already sowed their "wild oats," and now tell others how to behave. To them I would aay: tell me you never had sex with a woman you didn't intend to have a child with? No matter how "well-protected."

But this is not only a first-world issue. It's a third-world issue, too. Men and women have sex, and women bear the brunt of the effects. That's why abortion is a women's health issue, and a feminist issue. Men spread their seed and move on, while women are left to take care of the babies, and squash their own dreams and ambitions.

I'm not sure what "empires" have to do with it, tbh.

 

[britbox]

OK, so you're advocating for abstention from sex. One of the most basic human inclinations. And not just in "western civilization." For everyone who doesn't want a child as the outcome. Obviously, or not, for you, this excludes non-consensual sex, such as rape and incest?

Also, and this is not aimed at you, but I find this a convenient position for middle-aged men, who already sowed their "wild oats," and now tell others how to behave. To them I would aay: tell me you never had sex with a woman you didn't intend to have a child with? No matter how "well-protected."

But this is not only a first-world issue. It's a third-world issue, too. Men and women have sex, and women bear the brunt of the effects. That's why abortion is a women's health issue, and a feminist issue. Men spread their seed and move on, while women are left to take care of the babies, and squash their own dreams and ambitions.

I'm not sure what "empires" have to do with it, tbh.

I didn't suggest a blanket abstention of sex. I said if you have sex without protection then don't be surprised at the consequences. Didn't they teach you about the birds and bees?

 

[Moxie]

I didn't suggest a blanket abstention of sex. I said if you have sex without protection then don't be surprised at the consequences. Didn't they teach you about the birds and bees?

And I mentioned that there is no protection that 100% prevents pregnancy. That's just true. (Surely, someone explained that part, when they gave you "the birds and the bees.") So, everyone tries really hard, and they get pregnant, anyway. Then what happens?

 

[britbox]

OK, so you're advocating for abstention from sex. One of the most basic human inclinations. And not just in "western civilization." For everyone who doesn't want a child as the outcome. Obviously, or not, for you, this excludes non-consensual sex, such as rape and incest?

Also, and this is not aimed at you, but I find this a convenient position for middle-aged men, who already sowed their "wild oats," and now tell others how to behave. To them I would aay: tell me you never had sex with a woman you didn't intend to have a child with? No matter how "well-protected."

But this is not only a first-world issue. It's a third-world issue, too. Men and women have sex, and women bear the brunt of the effects. That's why abortion is a women's health issue, and a feminist issue. Men spread their seed and move on, while women are left to take care of the babies, and squash their own dreams and ambitions.

I'm not sure what "empires" have to do with it, tbh.

You make rather sweeping statements in that response. All men don't just "sow" their oats and move on... I have children and never moved on anywhere. Did your father? Grandfathers? and as far as I'm aware there aren't hordes of mini me's running around other than the ones I've brought up. Also, the things you're talking of - men rampaging around having uncontrolled sex, you've kind of admitted that you do yourself.

It's rather sad that you see babies as a barrier to your own self-indulgent dreams and ambitions. Most women I know see them as a gift to love, nurture and cherish, rather than some waste product that gets in the way of personal pleasures. I guess we move in different circles. Each to their own.

 

[Moxie]

You make rather sweeping statements in that response. All men don't just "sow" their oats and move on... I have children and never moved on anywhere. Did your father? Grandfathers? and as far as I'm aware there aren't hordes of mini me's running around other than the ones I've brought up. Also, the things you're talking of - men rampaging around having uncontrolled sex, you've kind of admitted that you do yourself.

It's rather sad that you see babies as a barrier to your own self-indulgent dreams and ambitions. Most women I know see them as a gift to love, nurture and cherish, rather than some waste product that gets in the way of personal pleasures. I guess we move in different circles. Each to their own.

I didn't attack you, and you have no call to attack me. Or my family.

I said nothing about men "rampaging around." If I'm wrong about the notion that lots of men in this world have premarital/casual/extra-marital sex with little thought to the consequences, I'll apologize, when someone proves it.

Meantime, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what this has to do with "empires."

 

[britbox]

I didn't attack you, and you have no call to attack me. Or my family.

I said nothing about men "rampaging around." If I'm wrong about the notion that lots of men in this world have premarital sex with little thought to the consequences, I'll apologize, when someone proves it.

Meantime, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what this has to do with "empires."

I didn't attack your family. I asked if your father or grandfathers just sowed their oats and moved on? or did they stay and take responsibility. Just a question - I presume they did the right thing.

Yes, there are many men with little thought to consequences, but it's still probably a lesser number than those that take responsibility... although that gap is closing fast. Women are no different as you've basically indicated yourself.

Empires relates to a natural cycle where social fabric starts dissolving into degeneracy - where rights are demanded without responsibility. If you study the collapse of all great civilizations there is a common pattern to all of them. Greek, Roman, Chinese - breakdown of family units, structure, drugs, drink. The warning signs are there for all to see and it usually happens pretty darn quickly.

 

[Moxie]

I didn't attack your family. I asked if your father or grandfathers just sowed their oats and moved on? or did they stay and take responsibility. Just a question - I presume they did the right thing.

You made it personal, and I specifically did not. I think that's out of line.

Yes, there are many men with little thought to consequences, but it's still probably a lesser number than those that take responsibility... although that gap is closing fast. Women are no different as you've basically indicated yourself.

This is the 2nd time that you say I implicate myself. Again, you are WAY out of line. Did I impugn your morals or your choices? You are being shockingly rude, IMO.

As to the notion that a greater number of men take responsibility than don't: I'm not sure history and the numbers are on your side, but we'll leave that for another day. I'm not sure where we'd begin to investigate that.

Empires relates to a natural cycle where social fabric starts dissolving into degeneracy - where rights are demanded without responsibility. If you study the collapse of all great civilizations there is a common pattern to all of them. Greek, Roman, Chinese - breakdown of family units, structure, drugs, drink. The warning signs are there for all to see and it usually happens pretty darn quickly.

This goes back to your notion that people are having sex without taking responsibility, I guess. I'm not sure that we are clear on what that means, in terms of "degeneracy." You're making a lot of moral judgements, and narrow ones. If you ask me, the greatest threat in the West is the rise of totalitarianism. Haven't all of the great societies been open to lots of ideas, at their apex?