US Politics Thread

[Kieran]

lol! Yes of course. In more than one way...

• if potential students think there's a possibility that their loans will be cancelled they'll be less incentivised to spend money judiciously, with less consideration for whether their degrees are actually financially beneficial for them

• if universities recognise that student debts will be written off, they'll be incentivised to raise their fees, without actually making their products a value proposition

I'm sure I could think of even more ways, given time, but even the most left wing leftie should recognise that neither of those scenarios are beneficial for the economy or even basic justice in the longer term (not that I'm calling you @tented ) a leftie

Well that’s very good! And makes sense in so many other areas of life too. But with regards to universities, and the cost, it’s difficult to see how to resolve this. I know of law students who are massively in debt and think they’ll land a job replacing Johnny Cochran, earning millions, but in reality they end up working a thousand ladder rungs below and still paying off their debts. There’s an industry built around student loans.

But it’s got little or nothing to do with the government, nor has it anything to do with non-uni participants in society who see students study things like critical race theory and come out of college preaching it’s awful denigrations and throwing insults at the very same person who they want to bail them out..

 

[Federberg]

Well that’s very good! And makes sense in so many other areas of life too. But with regards to universities, and the cost, it’s difficult to see how to resolve this. I know of law students who are massively in debt and think they’ll land a job replacing Johnny Cochran, earning millions, but in reality they end up working a thousand ladder rungs below and still paying off their debts. There’s an industry built around student loans.

But it’s got little or nothing to do with the government, nor has it anything to do with non-uni participants in society who see students study things like critical race theory and come out of college preaching it’s awful denigrations and throwing insults at the very same person who they want to bail them out..

there are quite a few things that can be done I reckon. Universities get a lot of government grants. These could be conditional on correct behaviour. University rankings are corrupt. There are scientists producing outstanding research in less prestigious universities, but the universities themselves don't get the credit. It goes without saying that the higher the ranking the better able these universities are to acquire talent. So even if they aren't as good as the rankings show, their financial power should correct that over time. So if that is fixed we could see some of the so called top universities slide down the lists. There's much more though. I'm not saying government is the solution, it would be weird for a libertarian like me to be saying that! My focus is more on the actions that can be taken to break the structure than who actually takes the action. At the moment it's not a free market, I'm sure a careful study would be able to develop multiple solutions to fix this

 

[Kieran]

there are quite a few things that can be done I reckon. Universities get a lot of government grants. These could be conditional on correct behaviour. University rankings are corrupt. There are scientists producing outstanding research in less prestigious universities, but the universities themselves don't get the credit. It goes without saying that the higher the ranking the better able these universities are to acquire talent. So even if they aren't as good as the rankings show, their financial power should correct that over time. So if that is fixed we could see some of the so called top universities slide down the lists. There's much more though. I'm not saying government is the solution, it would be weird for a libertarian like me to be saying that! My focus is more on the actions that can be taken to break the structure than who actually takes the action. At the moment it's not a free market, I'm sure a careful study would be able to develop multiple solutions to fix this

That’s a good suggestion. There are Biologists who don’t know how to say what a woman is. There are activists turning out activists. The whole system is rotten with idiotic leftist infestation. Not only in America, but most loudly there. Harvard, Yale, they used to be prestigious.

There’s no incentive to change either, so an objective ranking system on behaviour would be a good start..

 

[Moxie]

That’s a good suggestion. There are Biologists who don’t know how to say what a woman is. There are activists turning out activists. The whole system is rotten with idiotic leftist infestation. Not only in America, but most loudly there. Harvard, Yale, they used to be prestigious.

This was precisely the logic that Reagan used to defund tuition in California when he was governor. Why should the state pay for those commie pinkos at Berkley? He sold that idea to conservative think-tanks, and brought it to the White House in 1980. Instead of what had once been a general consensus that a well-educated public was in the common good, he saw it as a danger. Subsidies for state colleges/universities were reduced, grants reduced, and tuitions raised. Reagan's idea was that students would take out loans that they would pay back from future wages. And, voilà...the beginnings of the student debt crisis.

Notice that 40-50 years later, your complaint is still the same: that intellectuals lean too far to the left. What does that tell you? One answer is that education tends to open minds to more liberal thought. Which is not to say that there are not highly-intellectual conservatives. But the backbone of Reagan's plan was to keep working people from being too-well educated, lest they upset the apple cart. I know you have a few bones to pick with certain lines of liberal thought and inquiry, but I honestly don't think that the universities are some hotbed of Marxist indoctrination.

 

[Kieran]

This was precisely the logic that Reagan used to defund tuition in California when he was governor. Why should the state pay for those commie pinkos at Berkley? He sold that idea to conservative think-tanks, and brought it to the White House in 1980. Instead of what had once been a general consensus that a well-educated public was in the common good, he saw it as a danger. Subsidies for state colleges/universities were reduced, grants reduced, and tuitions raised. Reagan's idea was that students would take out loans that they would pay back from future wages. And, voilà...the beginnings of the student debt crisis.

Notice that 40-50 years later, your complaint is still the same: that intellectuals lean too far to the left. What does that tell you? One answer is that education tends to open minds to more liberal thought. Which is not to say that there are not highly-intellectual conservatives. But the backbone of Reagan's plan was to keep working people from being too-well educated, lest they upset the apple cart. I know you have a few bones to pick with certain lines of liberal thought and inquiry, but I honestly don't think that the universities are some hotbed of Marxist indoctrination.

Open minds? They’re closing minds. I don’t have any problems “with certain lines of liberal thought and inquiry” - these students aren’t learning anything about inquiry, or practicing it. Inquiry requires an open mind. They’re closing minds.

They’re creating activists who think that questions are murder. They’re indoctrinating them, teaching them bad ideas. They think that men can become pregnant. You think that any of this is good? Or intellectual? Or even liberal? Reagan sounds like he was onto something. “Why should the state pay for those commie pinkos at Berkeley?”

Why, indeed? They’re not educating kids. They’re not preparing them for the world outside, to serve their country.

They’re teaching them to hate their country. They’re mollycoddling them. They’re not interested in excellence, they’re turning out pampered mediocrities who think a victim complex is a way to heaven. Screeching kids who are triggered by nonsensical baby things like pronouns, screwed up in the head with bogus ideas like intersectionality, gender studies, terrible understandings and readings of history. They’re churning out idiots who follow leftist political fashion slavishly, no matter how often these trendy ideas mutated into something worse.

Very kind of you to concede that there have been conservative intellectuals, by the way. I’m beginning to think that without them, your country would have none…

 

[Moxie]

Open minds? They’re closing minds. I don’t have any problems “with certain lines of liberal thought and inquiry” - these students aren’t learning anything about inquiry, or practicing it. Inquiry requires an open mind. They’re closing minds.

They’re creating activists who think that questions are murder. They’re indoctrinating them, teaching them bad ideas. They think that men can become pregnant. You think that any of this is good? Or intellectual? Or even liberal? Reagan sounds like he was onto something. “Why should the state pay for those commie pinkos at Berkeley?”

Why, indeed? They’re not educating kids. They’re not preparing them for the world outside, to serve their country.

They’re teaching them to hate their country. They’re mollycoddling them. They’re not interested in excellence, they’re turning out pampered mediocrities who think a victim complex is a way to heaven. Screeching kids who are triggered by nonsensical baby things like pronouns, screwed up in the head with bogus ideas like intersectionality, gender studies, terrible understandings and readings of history. They’re churning out idiots who follow leftist political fashion slavishly, no matter how often these trendy ideas mutated into something worse.

Very kind of you to concede that there have been conservative intellectuals, by the way. I’m beginning to think that without them, your country would have none…

I think you paint university professors with a very broad brush. They teach very different subjects and have very different opinions about how to work and how to teach. You act as if they are a monolith, and of one mind. I find that not just unfair, but completely unlikely. I understand that there are areas and disciplines where you have specific concerns, but I think making it all into one single evil is overdetermined, in the extreme.

 

[mrzz]

One answer is that education tends to open minds to more liberal thought.

There are a few problems here.

First that the political spectrum in universities is highly dependent on the department you are talking about. The physics department will have a different political landscape than the sociology department, both will be different from the medicine schools, so on and so forth.

Second point is that there is no _tabula rasa_ here. It is not like people come to universities free of previous concepts, then after exposed to a variety of ideas, they consciously chose one line over others. Nowadays it is the precise opposite to that: the system filters people with similar inclinations.

One could ask how we got to that point, which is a long and fascinating discussion.

 

[Moxie]

There are a few problems here.

When I said "open minds to more liberal thought," I should have said that I don't mean politically liberal. I meant "open" and "flexible." It's hard to learn with a closed mind.

First that the political spectrum in universities is highly dependent on the department you are talking about. The physics department will have a different political landscape than the sociology department, both will be different from the medicine schools, so on and so forth.

I made the same point above. We can't be talking the same about every department.

Second point is that there is no _tabula rasa_ here. It is not like people come to universities free of previous concepts, then after exposed to a variety of ideas, they consciously chose one line over others. Nowadays it is the precise opposite to that: the system filters people with similar inclinations.

I'm not clear if you mean professors or students. If you're referring to professors, the world of academia is notoriously byzantine and insular, but different departments within different various universities have their own intrigues and preferences. It's hardly a monolith, however.

One could ask how we got to that point, which is a long and fascinating discussion.

What point do you think we've arrived at, then?

 

[Federberg]

I'm not clear if you mean professors or students. If you're referring to professors, the world of academia is notoriously byzantine and insular, but different departments within different various universities have their own intrigues and preferences. It's hardly a monolith, however.

isn't the problem that there's an absence of diversity of thought in these universities. It's become apparent that academic staff who have different views from the dominant view on campuses are terrified of expressing themselves and are being edged out if they do? It IS a monolith, and that's completely antithetical to the Socratic method which was the original inspiration for academia

 

[Kieran]

I think you paint university professors with a very broad brush. They teach very different subjects and have very different opinions about how to work and how to teach. You act as if they are a monolith, and of one mind. I find that not just unfair, but completely unlikely. I understand that there are areas and disciplines where you have specific concerns, but I think making it all into one single evil is overdetermined, in the extreme.

The universities are largely monolithically left, to the extent that conservatives try to hide their political allegiances. This is most egregious among professors, where some have had to hide the fact that they’re conservative so they won’t miss out on tenureship.

I’ve posted enough short videos of how holding a heterodox opinion on race affects even liberal professors, but this one almost made me cry, it was so unnecessary, mean and sad, and he’s such a bright and brilliant man. And a very good man. I have a friend who knows both him and Glenn Loury.



You need to listen to more voices from the left that criticise the left. Jonathan Haidt started the Heterodox Academy to try counter bad ideas in universities and the ostracising of professors.

Our commitment to heterodoxy within the academy is a response to the rise of orthodoxy within scholarly culture that leads people to fear shame, ostracism, or any other form of social or professional retaliation for questioning or challenging a commonly held idea.

So much for liberal open inquiry and thought. It largely doesn’t exist in universities. And this is liberals telling you. You really don’t listen to them. You hate when I say this but you have huge blindspots when it comes to progressive madness.

The Democrats were so hard-up trying to find a sane voice in the humanities that they famously sent a bug eyed loon to the senate, to be humiliated by Josh Hawley. “Oh so you think men can’t get pregnant! Your questions are Violence!” Etc. She’s a professor. You actually thought she did okay and he was the problem.

Morally illiterate people teaching the young. Little wonder we see how wrong all your activists are, when they’re from the left. When they talk about race and gender. When they cite anti-intellectual grifters like BLM and Ibram X Kendi as authentic and worthwhile voices. They’re being educated to be stupid and they’re not being encouraged to ask questions.

Reagan was right…

 

[tented]

^these are basic economic concepts. Honestly didn't think I was digging deep into theory. Truth be told, this stuff is more likely to be in the first chapter of a high school level economics book that it almost falls under common sense. I'm shocked it merited so much debate...

And I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm genuinely surprised.

PS, I know you won't get your knickers in a twist @tented. You don't do the over-sensitivity thing...

Thanks for the responses! While, in general, I can simply go away and read about whatever concept someone is introducing, I personally find it more fruitful to engage with others directly here so that I know we’re on the same page.

 

[tented]

lol! Yes of course. In more than one way...

• if potential students think there's a possibility that their loans will be cancelled they'll be less incentivised to spend money judiciously, with less consideration for whether their degrees are actually financially beneficial for them

• if universities recognise that student debts will be written off, they'll be incentivised to raise their fees, without actually making their products a value proposition

I'm sure I could think of even more ways, given time, but even the most left wing leftie should recognise that neither of those scenarios are beneficial for the economy or even basic justice in the longer term (not that I'm calling you @tented ) a leftie

I‘m sensing quite a bit of this already, with onanistic degrees available in such topics as “Folklore and Mythology” or “History of Architecture.” I suspect interest in such majors would drop significantly if student loans weren’t being used, giving such endeavors the patina of usefulness.

Standard, practical degrees are still available of course, such as the sciences, engineering, medicine, etc. which have a real world usefulness, thus incentivizing parents to want to spend their money on their kids‘ education. But “Folklore and Mythology”? Ok, it’s an interesting concept, but to have it as an entire major and not just a course?

That's the product of the student-loan-as-credit-card mindset, which defers concern about payment until later, thus eliminating students having to truly face the question of what the frick they’re going to do with a degree in folklore upon graduation — other than having to spend tens of thousands of dollars to pay back the loans, since the local job ads don’t have a section for folklorists.

 

[Federberg]

Thanks for the responses! While, in general, I can simply go away and read about whatever concept someone is introducing, I personally find it more fruitful to engage with others directly here so that I know we’re on the same page.

I appreciate the way you went about asking. Instead of getting into your feelings like a little girly you showed me what you had gleaned and challenged me to show the context in which I had used the concept. A factual interaction that's utterly reasonable. I draw the line when any way I communicate is impugned as offensive. or patronising. Sometimes you're just exchanging views on a forum. Nothing more, nothing less...

 

[Kieran]

The Squad's views on Israel could bolster primary opposition in 2024​

This could be very good news for the Democrats if they could get rid of those smirking empty-headed Fifth Columnists haters of America. These are progressive bigots who embrace every far-left fad in an effort to destroy America, and by extension, the West. They grow nothing nothing of value, and give nothing.

I think the Democrats would be more palatable without them, and their destructive beliefs…

 

[Federberg]

The Squad's views on Israel could bolster primary opposition in 2024​

This could be very good news for the Democrats if they could get rid of those smirking empty-headed Fifth Columnists haters of America. These are progressive bigots who embrace every far-left fad in an effort to destroy America, and by extension, the West. They grow nothing nothing of value, and give nothing.

I think the Democrats would be more palatable without them, and their destructive beliefs…

aren't most of the squad in extremely safe seats? It would certainly have to be in the primaries, as Dems will hold those seats easily. I'll believe it when I see it!

 

[Kieran]

aren't most of the squad in extremely safe seats? It would certainly have to be in the primaries, as Dems will hold those seats easily. I'll believe it when I see it!

That’s right, they’re the asp suckling at the bosom of the Democrats. Like you, I don’t hold out much hope. Most people on the left aren’t even aware of the problem of the far left, and so don’t think to ask questions, while the ones who see the damage don’t want questions to be asked, for obvious reasons. They say questions are murder, or violence, or non-consensual tickles under the armpit.

The democrats are the only ones who can get rid of these venomous tarts, so hopefully this will be the start of that..

 

[Federberg]

That’s right, they’re the asp suckling at the bosom of the Democrats. Like you, I don’t hold out much hope. Most people on the left aren’t even aware of the problem of the far left, and so don’t think to ask questions, while the ones who see the damage don’t want questions to be asked, for obvious reasons. They say questions are murder, or violence, or non-consensual tickles under the armpit.

The democrats are the only ones who can get rid of these venomous tarts, so hopefully this will be the start of that..

to be fair this is an issue on both sides of the aisle. The problem is that these seats aren't competitive so the extremes don't have to test themselves in the real market place. The only solution is to end. gerrymandering or even better use the Californian system. Not much good in politics comes from there, but that seems pretty democratic. I'll leave our US cousins on the forum to tell me if I'm wrong on that.

PS, I know Pete Wilson really screwed the pooch for the Californian GOP, but the question has to be asked how many years of defecation on the streets, and unpunished shop lifting will it take to give the GOP a proper go again??

 

[Kieran]

to be fair this is an issue on both sides of the aisle. The problem is that these seats aren't competitive so the extremes don't have to test themselves in the real market place. The only solution is to end. gerrymandering or even better use the Californian system. Not much good in politics comes from there, but that seems pretty democratic. I'll leave our US cousins on the forum to tell me if I'm wrong on that.

PS, I know Pete Wilson really screwed the pooch for the Californian GOP, but the question has to be asked how many years of defecation on the streets, and unpunished shop lifting will it take to give the GOP a proper go again??

That’s true. The two party system has fossilised into boring, unthinking tribal politics, regurgitating mishaps every term. This is why the independents and non-party affiliated candidates might make 2024 very interesting.

But the squad are a symptom of something very poisonous and self-loathing in society, brought to us by the left..

 

[shawnbm]

That interview of John McShorter by Glenn Loury was so primed for our time. Wonderful. Their voices should be part of the collegiate educational buffet (along with the great and now very aged Thomas Sowell--a personal favorite of mine and so compelling).

 

[Kieran]

That interview of John McShorter by Glenn Loury was so primed for our time. Wonderful. Their voices should be part of the collegiate educational buffet (along with the great and now very aged Thomas Sowell--a personal favorite of mine and so compelling).

They’re teachers and prophets…