Translation

tented

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I think the notion of reading aloud, especially poetry is a really important point. I always tune into the radio for the reading of Ulysses on Bloomsday, (which is coming up.) So much more comprehensible when interpreted by actors, in the same way as Shakespeare. They get the beats right. I'm glad you mentioned Eliot, too. I love him, and always read him aloud. So I get why Grossman reads aloud. Good for her. You really do feel the rhythm when you speak it, as in reading poetry. And I guess, as a translator, you find the hiccups.

I’ll never forget listening to Fionnula Flanagan perform the legendary final chapter of Ulysses. It was like reading it for the first time by hearing it for the first time. I wish I had a recording of it, because it was pure genius.
 
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tented

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I’ll never forget listening to Fionnula Flanagan perform the legendary final chapter of Ulysses. It was like reading it for the first time by hearing it for the first time. I wish I had a recording of it, because it was pure genius.

I found a small excerpt on YouTube of Flanagan reading the last few pages of Molly Bloom’s soliloquy.
 
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Horsa

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@Horsa @Moxie @mrzz

I just finished watching the panel discussion on translation. It was well worth the nearly 2 hours. I enjoyed learning about their individual methods.

Of course P&V have a unique approach, since they’re married and began this whole journey into translation through their relationship. In a way, they’re translating twice: first her, then him. I liked their emphasis on getting the voice of the writer right, and prioritizing that over a rote, word-for-word translation. Their example of a Dostoevsky passage, in which a character repeats the same word a dozen times, was informative. Apparently copy editors would have changed it so that the word was only used once, but P&V stressed the importance of the repetition.

I think Grossman had the best line: “You don’t do translations with tracing paper.” That seems to have been the old way of approaching it, which is why so many Russian novels, in particular, were considered to have been dull, dry, and boring. P&V bring it alive.

I read their “Anna Karenina” a few years ago. Now, I have never read another translation, so I can’t compare, but I thoroughly enjoyed theirs. It felt so ... alive. Modern, even, but not in a bad way. More so in a way which demonstrated Tolstoy’s universality. Ironically, two of the greatest novels ever written, in my opinion, are Don Quixote and Anna Karenina (I read Grossman’s translation, of course, which moxie brought to my attention), so what a treat to see the people who worked so hard on these books, which allowed me even to read them, interact together!

Finally, near the end, they got to poetry vs. novels. P&V were asked the apparently inevitable question of translating Pushkin, and agreed it just can’t be translated in any manner which does him justice. They didn’t address the question of retaining rhyme scheme, but I thought it interesting nevertheless that two people who have spent so long translating Russian literature admit there’s something which they can’t or shouldn’t do.
I enjoyed learning about their methods too. I also thought that example was informative & agreed with them that although reiteration isn't always good sometimes it's either necessary or gives a better effect. I'd use the following famous rhyming couplet out of Samuel Taylor Coleridge's most famous poem "The rime of the ancient Mariner" to illustrate.

"Water! Water everywhere & all the boards did shrink.
Water! Water everywhere but not a drop to drink."

Do you think it would sound the same with some of the waters rephrased? I don't personally.

The 1st Russian novel I ever read was Dr. Zhivago when I was 15. I didn't find it boring but that might have been because of the circumstances. I was taken to Scarborough 1 week before the start of my last year of school & wasn't allowed to pack any books because I was supposed to be having a break. I got told I wasn't allowed to read anything. I ended up going to the rotunda museum & castle & finding the book shops & bought Dr. Zhivago which I just couldn't put down. My parents response was to buy me Pride & Prejudice & Vanity fair but I didn't find them as interesting. However, it's time for me to go back on topic.

I disagree. I don't like Don Quixote as I find it too distressing. I'd say Canterbury Tales & Villette. I agree with the fact we have to give credit to the translators who allow people to read books they might not otherwise be able to.

I agree. I noticed that the beauty of some poems gets lost in translation.
 
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Horsa

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Forgive me if I go a bit on a tangent, but the above posts inspired a couple of thoughts to throw in. Mrzz mention a translation of the title of the Henry James story that he objected to. There was a German film a few years back called "Gegen die Wand," which literally means "Against the Wall." In English, the film was called "Head On," which the filmmaker claimed he thought was better. Obviously, it's useful to have a living artist on hand to approve, but I just thought that was interesting. I also thought Horsa brought up an interesting point about interpretations of Old/Middle English to New English, which is English-to-English, (heaven help the non-native speaker.) I imagine we were all required to memorize the opening of Beowulf in Old English, but we read that and Chaucer basically in translation, or at least I did. And now, when Shakespeare is performed, we understand that the rhyme changes somewhat because pronunciations have changed. (And not to mention modern settings of the works...or perhaps TO mention them, because these are similar to the notion of flexibility in classic works for the current sensibility.)

As to tented's point re: P&V and Pushkin...I will watch the video, to hear the deep reasoning, and I respect that they think some things can't be done justice, but if great translators don't tackle them, they will remain untouchable for most of us.

Sorry...just throwing some things out there that all of your posts pinged in my head. Such an interesting topic, to me.
I could have been more inclusive & used the example of interpreting Nostradamus's French to modern French too as Nostradamus's prophecies were written in quatrains & Nostradamus's French is so different to modern French. Nostradamus's quatrains all being prophecies people don't often think about the beauty of them as they're too busy thinking about whether Nostradamus really fore-told the future. I know some people who have thought that Nostradamus was a total failure before I've got them to look at his quatrains as poetic works. (He was also an apothecary who saved a lot of lives by teaching people about hygiene & advising them to drink rose-hip tea for colds. Anyone who knows anything about herbalism knows rose-hips are a good source of vitamin C.) Nostradamus wrote in medieval French with bits of Italian, Latin & Greek added in. I never read Beowulf & chose to read Chaucer. I read it aloud to get the elegance of the rhyme then re-read it to get the meaning then I read it a 3rd time to put it all together. It's not only when Shakespeare is being performed that we realise rhyme changes because of changes in pronunciation. An example of this can be found in Blake's Tiger which goes as follows:-

Tiger! Tiger! Burning Bright!
In the forests of the night.
What immortal hand or eye
Can frame they fearful symmetry?

Modern reader's who haven't been informed could think line-ends 3 & 4 don't rhyme but in Blake's days symmetry was pronounced simmertry so would have rhymed with eye.

I agree with your penultimate paragraph.

It's o.k. I know the feeling. It is a fascinating topic.
 

Horsa

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I also thought it was interesting that @Horsa introduced the concept of Old and Middle English vs. Modern English. I looked at Beowulf a few months ago, and couldn’t believe how alien it seemed. Thoroughly impenetrable. It’s another language, yet a version of English. Chaucer is closer to Modern English, but (to me) still too different to make sense.

Shakespeare is certainly Modern English, but not 21st century English. I think it’s better to hear it than to read it. For those who haven’t seen Kenneth Branagh’s Hamlet, it’s a must see, especially for Derek Jacobi, who makes it sound like he’s making it up as he goes along, vs. reciting something written in the 17th century.

The same goes for James Joyce or T.S. Eliot. While they both must be read in order to appreciate everything that went into creating their written forms, I found it revelatory to hear them as oral performances. Somewhat tangentially, Grossman mentioned how she always reads her translations aloud to make sure they’re right. I forget the exact quote, but something about getting away with things on the page you can’t get away with when hearing them.
The statement made on the video about literature being similar to translation got me thinking & when Dante was mentioned I thought of Canterbury Tales as that is also a story written in poetic form but the copy of Divine Comedy I had didn't rhyme & I'm not a fan of blank verse or rather I wasn't. Now I realise that the rhymes may have got lost in translation so if I want to get them I have to learn Italian or learn to appreciate blank verse a lot more.

I agree with what you have to say about having to hear Shakespeare than just read it. The 1st Shakespeare play I officially learnt was Romeo & Juliet & I remember that English class became a 2nd drama class while we were learning it as we had to act it out. I got Juliet. We did the writing afterwards & re-read bits but we had to act 1st. I said officially learnt because I bought Henry V in middle school mistaking it for a history book & I'd read it.

I like T.S. Eliot. I agree. Sometimes things look right when written but we have to read them aloud to ensure they sound right too.
 
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Horsa

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I think the notion of reading aloud, especially poetry is a really important point. I always tune into the radio for the reading of Ulysses on Bloomsday, (which is coming up.) So much more comprehensible when interpreted by actors, in the same way as Shakespeare. They get the beats right. I'm glad you mentioned Eliot, too. I love him, and always read him aloud. So I get why Grossman reads aloud. Good for her. You really do feel the rhythm when you speak it, as in reading poetry. And I guess, as a translator, you find the hiccups.
I agree with your point about reading aloud too. I've never read Ulysses.
 

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I agree with your point about reading aloud too. I've never read Ulysses.

I’ve never heard any of them, but there are several audiobooks available of Ulysses. Maybe the best way to “read” it would be to listen to it, while reading along.

I took an entire class on Ulysses in college, which was great, and forced me to read it, but I wish audiobooks had been around at the time (this was three decades ago).
 
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Horsa

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I’ve never heard any of them, but there are several audiobooks available of Ulysses. Maybe the best way to “read” it would be to listen to it, while reading along.

I took an entire class on Ulysses in college, which was great, and forced me to read it, but I wish audiobooks had been around at the time (this was three decades ago).
Thank you very much for the information. I will try it when I have time.

That sounds great. I've never tried audiobooks but it would be a good idea for me at times when I need to give my eyes a break.
 

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I found a small excerpt on YouTube of Flanagan reading the last few pages of Molly Bloom’s soliloquy.
Thanks for posting that. Fionnula Flanagan is my favorite reader as Molly Bloom. I will surely revisit this for Bloomsday.

I just finished watching the long panel discussion you posted. There is a lot in there. I thought the general take-away was the the translators were in favor of liberalness v. literalness. They put a lot of emphasis on voice and tone. One quote I noted from Vokolonsky that I liked was "It's not about the way it's said in Russian, but it's the way Tolstoy said it in Russian." This gets to the nut of the problem. And why literal translations are too poor. As Edie Grossman says, and I think you quoted...it's not done with tracing paper. I also thought it was interesting that they compared translation to performance. Which brings us back to reading aloud.

I was sad to see Dante get a bad rap at the end there. I've made my case for why he's hard to translate, but not impossible. This is when they got into footnote v. end notes, which I also thought was an interesting distinction, and as to how they make their choices. The panel was about translating classics, but there was a lot to be said about the modern ones, as well. Lydia Davis was evoked more than once. She's a great translator from French to English.
 
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Have you read Grossman's book Why Translation Matters? I'm curious if she mentions the inherent, problematic decision-making process of translating rhyming poetry.

I dug out my copy of her book, and she dedicates the whole last chapter to translating poetry. I have to say, there is no easy way to pick a quote or consolidate what she says about it. It's dense and smart, and I could hardly do it justice to paraphrase. And yet I will try. She says this: "...poetry is the most intense, most highly charged, most artful and complex form of language we have. In many ways it is the essential literary expression of our species, long associated with the distant origins of music, dance, and religious ritual in early human colluders. And yet, although it may be universally human, the inescapable truth is that poetry can seem completely localized, thoroughly contextualized , and absolutely inseparable from the language in which it is written in ways that prose is not."

With this, I think she explains the difficulty of translating poetry.

Then she goes on to describe the influence of foreign language poetry on poets who are not native to that language, thereby making the case for trying anyway. This from Anne Sexton: "We [North American poets] are being influenced now by South American poets, Spanish poets, French poets. We're much more image-driven as a result...Neruda is the great image-maker. The greatest colorist..."

And she talks about finding the "beat." She says: "As the Irving Mills lyric to Duke Ellington's song explains: 'It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.' An insight that holds true in poetry as does in jazz."

This is what I meant about the difference between the Mandelbaum translation of Dante versus the Pinsky one. The Pinsky one had "that swing."

I thought one of her best points, though, was that it matters that translators try to translate verse, because of the influence that writers can have on other writers. Beyond Anne Sexton she mentions Walt Whitman's influence on the South Americans. Neruda's "Canto General" owes a great lot to Whitman. I think what she's saying is that a talented translator can at least crack the stone, so that the brilliance of the original can shine through.
 
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...sigh... I really will come back to this thread with time, so many interesting posts I want to reply to... but, for now, all I can say is that (surely motivated by this thread) I got myself a wonderful old edition of the Quijote... translated to Portuguese -- but with a lot of original passages quoted, and both languages are quite similar. I bought it from a street dealer, it was a lucky finding, but a bit of merit to my "nose". The interesting coincidence is that one block further I found an artwork of Quijote, Sancho Panza and Rocinante. Here we have my book with the lead characters on the background:

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Horsa

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...sigh... I really will come back to this thread with time, so many interesting posts I want to reply to... but, for now, all I can say is that (surely motivated by this thread) I got myself a wonderful old edition of the Quijote... translated to Portuguese -- but with a lot of original passages quoted, and both languages are quite similar. I bought it from a street dealer, it was a lucky finding, but a bit of merit to my "nose". The interesting coincidence is that one block further I found an artwork of Quijote, Sancho Panza and Rocinante. Here we have my book with the lead characters on the background:

View attachment 2470View attachment 2470
Me too. I did have more to say but as you said something about having something more to say here I thought I'd be considerate towards you & not bombard you with even more words until you got a chance to say what you wanted because I know I can be quite/very wordy at times.

That's very nice. Are you an antique collector with a good eye for a bargain too?
 

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Are you an antique collector with a good eye for a bargain too?

I am not an antique collector, not even close. I don't even am particularly excited about first editions, peculiar editions and stuff... what I like is a good edition and that is surely one. Of course, being old adds some charm to it.
 
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Horsa

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I am not an antique collector, not even close. I don't even am particularly excited about first editions, peculiar editions and stuff... what I like is a good edition and that is surely one. Of course, being old add some charm to it.
Ha! I collect some antiques. The ones I like the look of & can buy cheap & have room for. I agree, it is a good edition. I like old books for other reasons. They're beautifully bound, I love the smell of leather & they often have marbled frontispieces & gilded lettering on covers. Sometimes they have illustrated & full colour drop-letters as well as lovely calligraphy.
 

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I'm so envious of that find, @mrzz !

I could explore more the edition and it is indeed quite good. It has all the details of the original one, the acceptance letter from the king, the seal from the copier... the translators are two Spanish brothers from an old noble family (it suits so well the text), the associated editor is an old academic I respect a lot... good and measured quantity of note... and the illustrations are marvelous!

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Horsa

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I've had a couple of odd experiences with translation. The 1st 1 is I never got more than 5 questions wrong in French without even trying. The 2nd is I was at Tarbet near Loch Lomond & there was a blue plaque with only Scots Gaelic writing on & I got asked what it meant & I read it in English though I don't know Scots Gaelic. The Glaswegian coach drivers were there while I was reading it & said "I didn't know you knew Gaelic." I answered, "I didn't either." The only explanation I can think of is I've done my genealogical research & found out that most of my ancestors were Scots/Irish & I have 1 lot of Norman-French ancestors. I'm putting my French results down to ancestors because I'm just not that smart.
 

Horsa

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If I'd have gone to college I'd have studied languages because I just couldn't do anything wrong but I couldn't afford to go. I'd have loved to be an intercommunications assistant.

I have however been lucky & got certain opportunities that not everyone in my situation gets. I got taught how to do daily & weekly sales records & weekly figures sheets as well as sales & purchase ledgers & I've done that although normally you've got to study accountancy in order to do that. Apparently, you've got to have a history degree to work in archives but I'm learning archiving & I don't.