The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

[DarthFed]

Roger was probably the 2nd best clay player by 2005. The semi at RG that year was the defacto final and Roger won Hamburg. I'd say 2005-2011 Roger was for the most part the 2nd best on clay.

Let me quote you back to yourself. You cited Roger's loss at RG as a reason to make him 2nd best that year.

In your list of reasons for making Roger the #2 on clay that year, you cited the RG semi, and called it the de facto final. I'm not hung up on whether that was right or wrong, as the de facto final (and I do agree with you how it would have likely gone,) I'm only saying that you were mentioning it as a point in Roger's favor, as to who should be considered the 2nd best that year. By that reasoning, I should be able to mention Coria's losses, but close misses, as well. While Rafa was only beginning to be considered the gold standard on clay that year, he has been since. Coria took 4 sets off of Rafa that year, to Roger's one. And Roger has only taken Rafa to 5 on red clay once, the following year. Coria did it twice in 2005. My point is only that Coria was still in the conversation strongly in 2005, and so it's not so clear that Roger was the #2 on clay, that year, specifically.


I was referring to Darth in my comment, and we posted at the same time, so sorry for the confusion. I agree that it is questionable as to who was the better clay player in 2005, Federer or Coria. At the time, Coria was considered to be. In retrospect, you might say that Roger had slightly better results, but it's a murky judgement, at best, IMO. As I pointed out to Darth, it was Coria who pressed Rafa harder, when Nadal was supplanting Coria as best on clay.

Moxie, it really sounds like your basing clay prowess solely off of how competitive someone is vs. Nadal. Needless to say it doesn't work like that. Overall results, general consistency and a player's ceiling should rank higher than that and by 2005 Roger was 2nd to Nadal in those areas. Not mentioned before is that you could claim Soderling was 2nd best in 2010 on the surface because Nadal mopped up everything and Sod made the finals of RG again.

I was offering that up as a measure of like-to-like, and since you'd already brought losses to Nadal into it. And I'm not sure what you're on about as to Soderling. No one mentioned him on this thread.

And for the record, Coria had more ATP points on clay than Roger in 2005. Although, that took Coria 8 clay tournaments to accomplish, to Fed's 3.

You should've bolded the whole part, which included Roger winning Hamburg (ie he had the 2nd best results irrespective of Coria mopping up clay tourneys with nobodies in them). And I'm not giving Roger credit for losing to Nadal, what I'm saying is he was involved in the match that decided the winner of the tournament. Federer and Djokovic didn't get runners-up trophies in 2005 and 2013 but everyone knows it was the semi that decided the winner of both of those tournaments.

As for the part about Sod, that relates to us saying Roger was 2nd best from 2005 - 2011. Roger really did bad on clay in 2010 so you could put Sod as #2 there that year.

 

[Federberg]

http://www.oregonlive.com/the-spin-of-the-ball/index.ssf/2015/03/why_rafael_nadal_faces_an_uphi.html?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

http://www.oregonlive.com/the-spin-of-the-ball/index.ssf/2015/03/why_rafael_nadal_faces_an_uphi.html?

I agree with the article in principle, but here is the thing: Both Roger and Rafa are exceptions. Look at Roger...he is almost 34 , and with no serious injuries, still producing amazing tennis here and there. And Rafa...he is a freak, so nobody can say with any certainty that he will not catch fire and start winning everything. It might not look like it right now, but he gets healthy, sustains it a bit, all bets are off...

 

[Federberg]

^ I agree. Just thought others might like to read the article

 

[Riotbeard]

I just want applaud Murat for thinking up this thread:clap

It's so nice to have this squabbling in a designated place, haha.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I just want applaud Murat for thinking up this thread:clap

It's so nice to have this squabbling in a designated place, haha.

No worries

When used as intended, this thread can be totally annoying :snicker

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I just want applaud Murat for thinking up this thread:clap

It's so nice to have this squabbling in a designated place, haha.

No worries

When used as intended, this thread can be totally annoying :snicker

Can we have a separate thread to discuss Rafa's balding head also. :devil

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

GSM, nope, this is the thread for that too.
He can use Rogaine but it has some unmanly side effects. Maybe transplant?

 

[mrzz]

GSM, nope, this is the thread for that too.
He can use Rogaine but it has some unmanly side effects. Maybe transplant?

Murat, I am extremely disappointed with you. It is beyond words.

Of course this is not the thread to discuss if Nadal is bald or not. This is a classic Fedal thread, you should know it more than anyone. Only proper Fedal arguments, which go deeply into their rivalry, with implications for the understanding of the tennis game as a whole, should be seriously addressed here. So there is absolutely no point in discussing if Nadal is getting bald or not.

However, if you want to discuss if Nadal's bald head is worst than Federer's potato nose, that's a whole other story.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

GSM, nope, this is the thread for that too.
He can use Rogaine but it has some unmanly side effects. Maybe transplant?

Murat, I am extremely disappointed with you. It is beyond words.

Of course this is not the thread to discuss if Nadal is bald or not. This is a classic Fedal thread, you should know it more than anyone. Only proper Fedal arguments, which go deeply into their rivalry, with implications for the understanding of the tennis game as a whole, should be seriously addressed here. So there is absolutely no point in discussing if Nadal is getting bald or not.

However, if you want to discuss if Nadal's bald head is worst than Federer's potato nose, that's a whole other story.

Here is how I see it : I would rather it gets discussed here than any other thread.

Of course, I would rather it is never discussed , I am with you on that.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

It is right up there with the underwear picking...Totally needless, but rather here than anywhere else.:snicker

 

[mrzz]

STOP THE PRESS! I just realised, Nadal's baldness versus Federer's nose is A COMPLETELY NEW ARGUMENT in the Fedal discussion. There's no answer, it is a fact. And it is MUCH better than that of Moxie...

I said I would win it.

 

[Moxie]

STOP THE PRESS! I just realised, Nadal's baldness versus Federer's nose is A COMPLETELY NEW ARGUMENT in the Fedal discussion. There's no answer, it is a fact. And it is MUCH better than that of Moxie...

I said I would win it.

Good try. I've still got the best new argument, and now no agent's fee for you. lolz:

 

[Bounce It !!]

This just goes to show how many Fedal fans there are: only 4 days old and already 5 pages long w/o a potential match on the horizon. :eyepop

Mahalo, I do believe this post supports my claim on page 1 for the Steak:woohoos

Where else has it been said that Fedal is good for tennis, hmmmmm? :celeb:

 

[mrzz]

STOP THE PRESS! I just realised, Nadal's baldness versus Federer's nose is A COMPLETELY NEW ARGUMENT in the Fedal discussion. There's no answer, it is a fact. And it is MUCH better than that of Moxie...

I said I would win it.

Good try. I've still got the best new argument, and now no agent's fee for you. lolz:

Ha, no way. Whoever thinks my argument is better please raise his/her hand...

 

[Federberg]

It's been interesting reading/listening to Rafa's comments after his recent losses. There is a clear difference to how Rafa and Roger face adversity. Rafa is far more forthcoming, in a way he should be applauded for that. But I can't help wondering about whether a bit of Federer bluff might be more appropriate at the moment. Here are a couple of his comments that struck me after his loss to the Fog...

"I played poorly, I didn't play like I should have,'' Nadal said. ''I didn't play aggressively, I missed more shots that I normally do. I didn't manage to keep the advantage I had. Having three breaks in the second set and end up at 5-5 is a disaster.

''This is a blow for me, but I accept the challenge and the negative day I had today. There is no other way forward other than to accept it or die.'"


''My forehand has been my biggest virtue. But today my forehand was vulgar, it wasn't a forehand worthy of my ranking and career. I need my forehand to push my opponents back.''

Is he giving away too many trade secrets there? I remember at the start of Roger's decline (if this is what this is for Rafa... and as I've said before I won't be convinced until after this season is over). Federer was dismissive of his poor performances and stubbornly maintained that he would get back to his winning ways.

Was it a recognition by Federer that it was important to at least maintain the illusion of a champion to get as many free points as possible from the opposition? I worry that Rafa might be helping his opponents by being a bit too forthcoming if this is the start of long walk down from the mountain. Any thoughts?

 

[Kieran]

For Rafa, this kind of plain speaking works cathartically, almost. Kinda like his book, sleeping with the lights on and the teddy bear close at hand. It seems to work for him, discussing his fears. Never understood it myself, either...

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

^ well, it's also in tune with how he handles himself in the ups as well. say he comes off a 50 win match streak, won the last two GS, and plays the world #175 - "gonna be a tough match, no? i don't see myself favorite... gonna be a difficult match."

he talks himself down even when he's way up. so now that he's 'down', how credible would he be denying it?

 

[Federberg]

^that's true. But there's an asymmetric pay off in that strategy. It's one thing to do it when you're winning, but quite another when it's the other way. If it boosts the confidence of your opposition then you're not helping yourself

 

[britbox]

I never really bought into Nadal's fake humility...