The real story of Fedal H2H

[Moxie]

Overall I agree. He's still pretty damn clutch though, he just had the 2 disastrous years in 2015-2016. But as far as HC goes I think he just plays differently not necessarily worse. he clearly doesn't move like he used to but his backhand and all-around game have been noticeably better the last two years. Rafa was obviously beastly in 2013 but is his HC play any worse the last two years than 2005-2012?

His HC game has evolved and changed over the years, but I'd say 2010-13 were his best, and he is lesser than then. I include 2011 as a good year for his HC tennis, because I don't have to say that my favorite "sucked" just because he lost to his rival. Movement is a big part, as you say. I also don't think he plays as fearlessly as he used to.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Ratio of slam titles:

Nadal: 11 clay, 4 hardcourt, 2 grass = 17
Federer: 11 hardcourt, 8 grass, 1 clay = 20

Nadal: 64%, 24%, 12%
Federer: 55%, 40%, 5%

Ratio of slam titles if all surfaces were equal (hardcourt divided by 2):

Nadal: 11 clay, 2 hardcourt, 2 grass = 15
Federer: 8 grass, 5.5 hardcourt, 1 clay = 14.5

Nadal: 73%, 13%, 13%
Federer: 55%, 38%, 7%

Conclusion:

Nadal is better on their best surface
Federer is better on their best 2 surfaces
Nadal is better on all surfaces as he has won at least 2 slams on each surface (even if you divide hardcourt by 2!).

There's definitely a case for Nadal to be the GOAT on 1 surface (clay) and for Federer to be the GOAT on 2 surfaces grass/hardcourt, but tennis is a 3 surface sport and the weakest link will always be Federer on clay. Federer needs to win another FO to have a case for GOAT. Nadal is the GOAT on clay/grass/hardcourt, he has won on each surface at least twice proving that it's not a fluke and that he's GREAT.

 

[DarthFed]

His HC game has evolved and changed over the years, but I'd say 2010-13 were his best, and he is lesser than then. I include 2011 as a good year for his HC tennis, because I don't have to say that my favorite "sucked" just because he lost to his rival. Movement is a big part, as you say. I also don't think he plays as fearlessly as he used to.

You're a better woman than me.

 

[DarthFed]

Ratio of slam titles:

Nadal: 11 clay, 4 hardcourt, 2 grass = 17
Federer: 11 hardcourt, 8 grass, 1 clay = 20

Nadal: 64%, 24%, 12%
Federer: 55%, 40%, 5%

Ratio of slam titles if all surfaces were equal (hardcourt divided by 2):

Nadal: 11 clay, 2 hardcourt, 2 grass = 15
Federer: 8 grass, 5.5 hardcourt, 1 clay = 14.5

Nadal: 73%, 13%, 13%
Federer: 55%, 38%, 7%

Conclusion:

Nadal is better on their best surface
Federer is better on their best 2 surfaces
Nadal is better on all surfaces as he has won at least 2 slams on each surface (even if you divide hardcourt by 2!).

There's definitely a case for Nadal to be the GOAT on 1 surface (clay) and for Federer to be the GOAT on 2 surfaces grass/hardcourt, but tennis is a 3 surface sport and the weakest link will always be Federer on clay. Federer needs to win another FO to have a case for GOAT. Nadal is the GOAT on clay/grass/hardcourt, he has won on each surface at least twice proving that it's not a fluke and that he's GREAT.

I'd rather have 1 on my weakest and 11 on my 2nd weakest than 2 on my weakest and 4 on my 2nd weakness. It's just simple math. Rafa has almost 2/3rds at 1 major while Roger has been dominant at 3 different majors as he is currently #1 or tied for #1 at 3 different majors. Having "only" 1 on clay doesn't negate that gap. Roger and Djokovic are both >>> Nadal on everything except clay and Nadal is >>>>>>>>>>> than them both on clay. It's the only thing keeping him in conversations.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I'd rather have 1 on my weakest and 11 on my 2nd weakest than 2 on my weakest and 4 on my 2nd weakness. It's just simple math. Rafa has almost 2/3rds at 1 major while Roger has been dominant at 3 different majors as he is currently #1 or tied for #1 at 3 different majors. Having "only" 1 on clay doesn't negate that gap. Roger and Djokovic are both >>> Nadal on everything except clay and Nadal is >>>>>>>>>>> than them both on clay. It's the only thing keeping him in conversations.

What you are judging as a weakness for Nadal which is his 11 RG titles is actually the greatest achievement in tennis. Federer being great on hardcourt and grass or on 3 slams is not something unique. Djokovic already is doing the same with his 6 AO, 4 WB, 3 USO, give him a couple of more years and he will have Federer's resume. Same for Sampras who has 7 WB and 5 USO. There are many Federer type of players who are great on hardcourt/grass, he did nothing special. His numbers are just higher because he got a few years without any competition.

Nadal on the other hand has won a stunning 11 French Open titles with only 2 losses there. He is a GOD. Nobody comes close to him ever. This record is the most spectacular record in tennis and nobody will ever beat it or come close. In 50 years, all of Federer's records will be matched or surpassed, but Nadal on clay will be immortal. The greatest tennis player will always be Nadal on clay. Forever. Federer on grass/hardcourt is definitely great, but nothing unique or special. Djokovic is proving that as we speak as well as many players who have dominated hardcourt/grass. Federer's strengths will be looked upon as average as time goes by, Nadal's strengths are unique and will stand the test of time much better.

Also, if he only had 11 FO and nothing else, you'd have a point. But he has 6 slams on hardcourt/grass. All-time greats like Becker & Edberg have 6 slams on all surfaces clay/hardcourt/grass. And players like McEnroe/Connors/Lendl/Agassi have 7-8 slams on all surfaces combined clay/hardcourt/grass, so 6 slams on only 2 surfaces is pretty much the same. Even without his iconic best surface, Nadal is still an amazing all-time great. Also with his 11 FO he equals the total career of slams (AO, FO, WB, USO) of both Borg & Laver! That's just insane. Some of you think that if Nadal had 4 FO, 3 USO, 2 WB and 1 AO it would somehow be better than 11 FO, 3 USO, 2 WB and AO. Get real. His French record is insane and adds so much to his GOATness, and even without that surface/slam he's still freaking amazing. Not to mention 4 AO finals, 4 USO finals, 5 WB finals. Also 9 hardcourt masters & Gold medal on hardcourt. Sprinkle all of that with his 9-3 and 9-5 h2h in slams against Fedovic and he is without a doubt the GOAT. Show some respect.

 

[DarthFed]

lol apparently it isn't unique to have the most titles at 3 different majors? All records will be broken. Even Nadal's titles at 1 major. I do agree his record will take the longest of any to break but tennis is more than just one surface and off that one surface Nadal is not anywhere near top shelf compared to a bunch of others.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

lol apparently it isn't unique to have the most titles at 3 different majors? All records will be broken. Even Nadal's titles at 1 major. I do agree his record will take the longest of any to break but tennis is more than just one surface and off that one surface Nadal is not anywhere near top shelf compared to a bunch of others.

I write an amazing and educated post full of details, stats and expertise, and I get a quick troll reply.

 

[DarthFed]

I write an amazing and educated post full of details, stats and expertise, and I get a quick troll reply.

I write a post full of facts and I get crying from one of the biggest trolls on the board...

 

[El Dude]

He's not mate... he really isn't. He lost the Eye the Tiger. Nadal in his prime was the best clutch player I've ever seen. He doesn't have that now... but the three amigos - Fed, Nadal and Djoker were that far ahead of the rest it gives them a big cushion on the decline,

This is worth saving from the mess of Fedal warring. I agree fully. As much as I loved seeing Roger dominate Rafa in 2017, I always had the thought, "But this isn't 2013 Rafa." I'm not saying 2017 Roger couldn't have beaten 2013 Rafa - I think he could have, at least on fast hards and grass. But he wouldn't have dominated him, and Rafa would probably have won a match or two - certainly not lost seven sets in a row. In fact, it is really too bad Roger didn't play clay in 2017, because I think he would have stood a chance against that version of Nadal. But it wasn't to be.

Rafa in his prime and in a Slam final is the best player I've ever seen. I don't think he has been as consistently great as Roger, but at his very best and in clutch situations, no one has been better. Novak is somewhere in-between, and whether he is the best of both or #2 to both hasn't quite been decided yet, in my opinion.

 

[Fiero425]

His HC game has evolved and changed over the years, but I'd say 2010-13 were his best, and he is lesser than then. I include 2011 as a good year for his HC tennis, because I don't have to say that my favorite "sucked" just because he lost to his rival. Movement is a big part, as you say. I also don't think he plays as fearlessly as he used to.

Nole saved us all from a Rafa run for the ages more than likely! Remember he took over #1 from Roger in 2010! From there only Djokovic was preventing Rafa from winning title after title in HC, Clay, & Grass events! Rafa might have ruled thru 2012 if not for Nole doing his part thru '12 AO marathon of 5:53! All 3 have kept the others from extending their more than impressive records! :whistle:

 

[El Dude]

His HC game has evolved and changed over the years, but I'd say 2010-13 were his best, and he is lesser than then. I include 2011 as a good year for his HC tennis, because I don't have to say that my favorite "sucked" just because he lost to his rival. Movement is a big part, as you say. I also don't think he plays as fearlessly as he used to.

Moxie, Rafa in 2011 and Roger in 2008 is a false equivalency. As has been pointed out and is easily seen in the stats (see my list of Roger's losses, from 2006-08), Roger was losing to a wide range of people starting in 2007, whereas the only difference between Rafa's performance in 2010 and 2011 is Novak. Rafa was every bit as good in 2011 as he was in 2010, it is just that Novak was better.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, Rafa in 2011 and Roger in 2008 is a false equivalency. As has been pointed out and is easily seen in the stats (see my list of Roger's losses, from 2006-08), Roger was losing to a wide range of people starting in 2007, whereas the only difference between Rafa's performance in 2010 and 2011 is Novak. Rafa was every bit as good in 2011 as he was in 2010, it is just that Novak was better.

I didn't say anything about equating it with Roger and 2008, and it wasn't even on my mind, though I realize we just spoke about it. I was really just poking at Darth because he basically always says that Roger sucks when he loses. I agree that Rafa was a good in 2011 as he was in 2010. It was that Novak had learned to play Rafa, he was "out-Rafaing" him, and then he got well in his head. He was the better in a lot of those matches, but Rafa lost a few of the later finals that year because of the mental, I think.

 

[Moxie]

I write an amazing and educated post full of details, stats and expertise, and I get a quick troll reply.

Darth did say that Rafa's RG record will take a long time to break. Anyway, I do agree that some Feddies expend a lot of effort diminishing Nadal's 11 at RG, as if it's a bad thing somehow. But I did think of a Federer one that will probably take a really long time to break: consecutive weeks at #1, with 237 (4 1/2 years.) Next closest is Connors, with 160, if I'm reading the stats right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ATP_number_1_ranked_singles_tennis_players

I have no idea which of those 2 records will take longer to break, but it's unwise to say any record will never be broken. Both of those look like Mount Olympus, though.

 

[Fiero425]

Darth did say that Rafa's RG record will take a long time to break. Anyway, I do agree that some Feddies expend a lot of effort diminishing Nadal's 11 at RG, as if it's a bad thing somehow. But I did think of a Federer one that will probably take a really long time to break: consecutive weeks at #1, with 237 (4 1/2 years.) Next closest is Connors, with 160, if I'm reading the stats right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ATP_number_1_ranked_singles_tennis_players

I have no idea which of those 2 records will take longer to break, but it's unwise to say any record will never be broken. Both of those look like Mount Olympus, though.

I think we can sincerely assume the records set by all of Fedalovic won't be broken anytime soon; esp. by this current crop of Next Gens! They are an anomaly that comes once in a lifetime; in this case 3! They own it like no other in the past!:whistle:

 

[Moxie]

I think we can sincerely assume the records set by all of Fedalovic won't be broken anytime soon; esp. by this current crop of Next Gens! They are an anomaly that comes once in a lifetime; in this case 3! They own it like no other in the past!:whistle:

Well, at least you finally admit that. I know you like to moan over the fact that no one has the guts to take them on, but it's not like it's been easy. It's a boat-load of talent at the top. We won't see this again soon.

 

[Fiero425]

Well, at least you finally admit that. I know you like to moan over the fact that no one has the guts to take them on, but it's not like it's been easy. It's a boat-load of talent at the top. We won't see this again soon.

And glad that you & others are including Nole "in the mix" since he's inextricably linked to Fedal now! The RB is awash w/ them! :whistle:

 

[El Dude]

I didn't say anything about equating it with Roger and 2008, and it wasn't even on my mind, though I realize we just spoke about it. I was really just poking at Darth because he basically always says that Roger sucks when he loses. I agree that Rafa was a good in 2011 as he was in 2010. It was that Novak had learned to play Rafa, he was "out-Rafaing" him, and then he got well in his head. He was the better in a lot of those matches, but Rafa lost a few of the later finals that year because of the mental, I think.

OK, my mistake. I thought you were saying that you weren't doing with 2011 what Darth was doing with 2008.

 

[Moxie]

And glad that you & others are including Nole "in the mix" since he's inextricably linked to Fedal now! The RB is awash w/ them! :whistle:

It would be ridiculous not to put him in the mix. What's the RB?

 

[Fiero425]

It would be ridiculous not to put him in the mix. What's the RB?

Record BOOK! I scan it all the time & Fedalovic have taken it over! All the categories have their names at or near the top of the lists besides Nadal @ #1! He's just never been able to hold it for long! The Masters is all about them!:whistle:

 

[Jelenafan]

His HC game has evolved and changed over the years, but I'd say 2010-13 were his best, and he is lesser than then. I include 2011 as a good year for his HC tennis, because I don't have to say that my favorite "sucked" just because he lost to his rival. Movement is a big part, as you say. I also don't think he plays as fearlessly as he used to.

I think he plays “smarter” at times, and certainly his BH is better, but the confidence and free flow in his FH hasn’t been the same.