The real history of the Crusades.....

[Riotbeard]

Everybody knows that the catholic church has done considerable work in cleaning up the name of Christianity in the last couple years. Come on Murat... They haven't had any significant scandals.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Everybody knows that the catholic church has done considerable work in cleaning up the name of Christianity in the last couple years. Come on Murat... They haven't had any significant scandals.

My bad....

 

[Riotbeard]

Everybody knows that the catholic church has done considerable work in cleaning up the name of Christianity in the last couple years. Come on Murat... They haven't had any significant scandals.

My bad....

Then again there might have been one and something about children...:s

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Everybody knows that the catholic church has done considerable work in cleaning up the name of Christianity in the last couple years. Come on Murat... They haven't had any significant scandals.

My bad....

Then again there might have been one and something about children...:s

Yep, but I am even more worried about the other thing about children: Introducing the concept of eternal hellfire in the name of doctrine, to a young child, who is already burdened with being born in sin, has to be one of the worst kind of child abuses ever. It doesn't always have to be physical. :nono

 

[Riotbeard]

My bad....

Then again there might have been one and something about children...:s

Yep, but I am even more worried about the other thing about children: Introducing the concept of eternal hellfire in the name of doctrine, to a young child, who is already burdened with being born in sin, has to be one of the worst kind of child abuses ever. It doesn't always have to be physical. :nono

It's hard to say. The rapture kept me up in fear as a child, fear that I wouldn't get taken. Still I would take that over the other thing I think.

 

[Kieran]

Just like you cannot distance yourself from creationists, right? After all, it is in the good book.

I absolutely can distance myself from the Protestant fundamentalist idiots who have made Christianity look so dumb in the public sphere with their misunderstanding of Scripture and their ignorance of all relevant subjects.

Are you not aware of the immense amount of ink that has been spilled by Catholics such as Karl Keating, Dave Armstrong, and Patrick Madrid in refuting Protestant nonsense?

I am sure protestants feel the same about your brand of nonsense. The common point? It is all nonsense.

How is it that it is always OTHERS that misunderstand this religion business Cali, but YOU understand it perfectly well? Don't you find it at least a bit...unusual?

And if everything else other than what you believe is nonsense, and others call what YOU believe nonsense, isn't it reasonable that maybe all of it is nonsense?

Following this line of logic, isn't it reasonable that atheist beliefs are nonsense? :cover

 

[Kieran]

I think we must be all in agreement about the point of Madden's article because the topic has gone into discuss a strange exotic unrecogniseable religion here. Is it Wiccan or something? :laydownlaughing

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I absolutely can distance myself from the Protestant fundamentalist idiots who have made Christianity look so dumb in the public sphere with their misunderstanding of Scripture and their ignorance of all relevant subjects.

Are you not aware of the immense amount of ink that has been spilled by Catholics such as Karl Keating, Dave Armstrong, and Patrick Madrid in refuting Protestant nonsense?

I am sure protestants feel the same about your brand of nonsense. The common point? It is all nonsense.

How is it that it is always OTHERS that misunderstand this religion business Cali, but YOU understand it perfectly well? Don't you find it at least a bit...unusual?

And if everything else other than what you believe is nonsense, and others call what YOU believe nonsense, isn't it reasonable that maybe all of it is nonsense?

Following this line of logic, isn't it reasonable that atheist beliefs are nonsense? :cover

But it is not a belief brother. It is nonbelief. I am not claiming strange events and promising heaven. I am claiming these things are impossible. The folks that are claiming they are legit have the burden of proof, not me. But then enter the word "faith" ...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I think we must be all in agreement about the point of Madden's article because the topic has gone into discuss a strange exotic unrecogniseable religion here. Is it Wiccan or something? :laydownlaughing

Come on man, I even tagged you to jump in with the "virgins" and everything, you totally ignored me...:nono


:laydownlaughing

 

[Kieran]

Even a so-called non-belief is a belief.

And don't go waving too many virgins at me or you'll have to re-categorise them fairly swiftly... :lolz:

 

[Riotbeard]

I am sure protestants feel the same about your brand of nonsense. The common point? It is all nonsense.

How is it that it is always OTHERS that misunderstand this religion business Cali, but YOU understand it perfectly well? Don't you find it at least a bit...unusual?

And if everything else other than what you believe is nonsense, and others call what YOU believe nonsense, isn't it reasonable that maybe all of it is nonsense?

Following this line of logic, isn't it reasonable that atheist beliefs are nonsense? :cover

But it is not a belief brother. It is nonbelief. I am not claiming strange events and promising heaven. I am claiming these things are impossible. The folks that are claiming they are legit have the burden of proof, not me. But then enter the word "faith" ...

Yes and no. The only evidence required for non-belief is the absence of proof. It is a conclusion but it is not an active thing in the same way religious belief is.

I think the only point Murat and I are trying to make is that Christians and Muslims fighting about who has the worst history is two people in glass houses throwing rocks at each other. The irony is that each group only believes the other persons house is made of glass. I would by all means leave well alone, but somebody here has a hobby horse.

I would say in general most people and groups would do better to look at themselves more before talking about how horrible other groups are. Wait, that sounds somewhat familiar...

 

[britbox]

So much tortured argument above about these things--it is not that complicated. The Crusades were NOT a drive to take over wealth and property and to murder Jews. They simply weren't. Did bad stuff happen? Yes. Unique in history? No. Were the enemies worth fighting against, atrocities or not? yes. If there is a choice between an Islamic and a Judeo-Christian world? ......


That is where the rubber meets the road--at least in the context of the Crusades and Middle Eastern history

Therein lies the problem: How bout NOT believing in any fairytales, living productive, peaceful lives, being nice to each other just because it is the right thing to do as opposed to being afraid of hellfire or expecting a reward of heaven, sometimes with bunch of virgins in it????

I bet THAT choice has not been given enough of a chance in this world. In fact I know it has not.
I will keep trying.

If you removed religion then people would only gravitate to some other tribal grouping in it's place, but for me wars are generally either caused by people wishing to further self interest or a tribal or historic reason.

 

[britbox]

I am sure protestants feel the same about your brand of nonsense. The common point? It is all nonsense.

How is it that it is always OTHERS that misunderstand this religion business Cali, but YOU understand it perfectly well? Don't you find it at least a bit...unusual?

And if everything else other than what you believe is nonsense, and others call what YOU believe nonsense, isn't it reasonable that maybe all of it is nonsense?

Following this line of logic, isn't it reasonable that atheist beliefs are nonsense? :cover

But it is not a belief brother. It is nonbelief. I am not claiming strange events and promising heaven. I am claiming these things are impossible. The folks that are claiming they are legit have the burden of proof, not me. But then enter the word "faith" ...

Science is all about belief too, no? You're basically believing what somebody else tells you.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Following this line of logic, isn't it reasonable that atheist beliefs are nonsense? :cover

But it is not a belief brother. It is nonbelief. I am not claiming strange events and promising heaven. I am claiming these things are impossible. The folks that are claiming they are legit have the burden of proof, not me. But then enter the word "faith" ...

Science is all about belief too, no? You're basically believing what somebody else tells you.

Totally different bro. I don't need anybody tell me gravity exists. If you don't believe it , feel free to jump from the 10th floor, and pray faith can save you.

There is such a thing as scientific method. "The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry is commonly based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning."

As you can see, you cannot compare it to blind faith. Science is OK with correcting itself in light of new evidence. Faith doesn't.

You cannot compare the life of a scientist who spends his years looking for answers to problems to a guy behind the pulpit who claims to have god's direct line and his best answer to questions is " God did it".:nono I do not accept that method myself.

Also, science is comfortable with not knowing. So am I. I would rather NOT know than come up with stories. That is the beauty of the universe.

 

[Kieran]

You sound like you're discussing theologians, Murat, "comfortable not knowing," "spending years looking for answers." Mystics, Saints. All of them devoted to the intangible, which even hardened atheists must admit exist. We base life decisions on intangibles. "I love you missus, let's build our tepee here!"

Based on what? An emotion cynics dispute exist? "But I feel it!"

"Yar nuts, feller! It don't exist, you been conned by a dame!"

I think the wisest atheist would redesign themselves as agnostic, just to be safe. The certainty of atheists that there definitely is nothing Greater out there might eventually become shakey. Remember Dawkins silly bus tour? "There probably isn't a God." That's a bold declaration that works better when you're selling Carlsberg.

And as for glass houses, the secularists and atheists glass houses have huge smatterings of red on their walls. It's a human matter. We don't need belief or disbelief for that. Nowadays, we have science to do the dirty work, in laboratories and clinics, and with other incredible weaponry. Science can be used for all things as effectively and terribly as any other belief systems.

But I think this was all discussed in a recent thread. Why is it that brother Cali's threads take us everywhere?

More than once! :clap :laydownlaughing

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I think the wisest atheist would redesign themselves as agnostic, just to be safe. The certainty of atheists that there definitely is nothing Greater out there might eventually become shakey. Remember Dawkins silly bus tour? "There probably isn't a God." That's a bold declaration that works better when you're selling Carlsberg.

I have said once before, I always leave the door open a crack for any possibility. It is very difficult to prove a negative. How do you prove something does not exist? So, I am comfortable with being a %99.9 atheist and I am willing to reconsider if new info comes along.

But I do believe there is something greater out there. There is this whole universe that is full of wonders. There are stars being born and dying as we speak. There are probably planets somewhere maybe with similar life forms like us...or something so different that we cannot even comprehend with our current knowledge. The possibility that black holes exist and what might be on the other side and how to get to it excites me so much more than the possibility of an existence of an insecure deity who only wants to be worshipped.

Either way brother, it is too early here for a Carlsberg, but I like the idea.

 

[Kieran]

Either way brother, it is too early here for a Carlsberg

That's the real problem with you's atheists, you're such bloody wimps! :devil

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Either way brother, it is too early here for a Carlsberg

That's the real problem with you's atheists, you're such bloody wimps! :devil

Come on man! It was like 8 am when I wrote that ! Don't tell me you start that early, or I am calling your wife.:snigger

 

[Riotbeard]

Either way brother, it is too early here for a Carlsberg

That's the real problem with you's atheists, you're such bloody wimps! :devil

Come on man! It was like 8 am when I wrote that ! Don't tell me you start that early, or I am calling your wife.:snigger

Kieran doesn't consider himself as having started till he pops the whiskey. He just drinks the beer in the morning because he doesn't trust the science of water sanitation. He lacks faith

 

[Kieran]

A couple of Guinness before I head down to early mass to pray for the hellbound heathen. My favourite part of the day...