The real history of the Crusades.....

[Murat Baslamisli]

I can see you googling like mad Cali, to come up with names.

I will save you time. Look at Edward Gibbon (of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire fame), or check out David Hume.

 

[shawnbm]

So much tortured argument above about these things--it is not that complicated. The Crusades were NOT a drive to take over wealth and property and to murder Jews. They simply weren't. Did bad stuff happen? Yes. Unique in history? No. Were the enemies worth fighting against, atrocities or not? yes. If there is a choice between an Islamic and a Judeo-Christian world? ......


That is where the rubber meets the road--at least in the context of the Crusades and Middle Eastern history

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

So much tortured argument above about these things--it is not that complicated. The Crusades were NOT a drive to take over wealth and property and to murder Jews. They simply weren't. Did bad stuff happen? Yes. Unique in history? No. Were the enemies worth fighting against, atrocities or not? yes. If there is a choice between an Islamic and a Judeo-Christian world? ......


That is where the rubber meets the road--at least in the context of the Crusades and Middle Eastern history

Therein lies the problem: How bout NOT believing in any fairytales, living productive, peaceful lives, being nice to each other just because it is the right thing to do as opposed to being afraid of hellfire or expecting a reward of heaven, sometimes with bunch of virgins in it????

I bet THAT choice has not been given enough of a chance in this world. In fact I know it has not.
I will keep trying.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

And Kieran, I know what you will say about virgins! Save it!:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

 

[calitennis127]

Cali, how many accounts of the Crusades have you read, from Islamic perspective? Speaking of laziness...Jeez...at least I know Madden.

Zero, to be honest, unless you include Bin Laden's references to them. But I have read accounts of the Crusades from a Western anti-Catholic standpoint. So your point is moot.

 

[calitennis127]

I can see you googling like mad Cali, to come up with names.

I will save you time. Look at Edward Gibbon (of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire fame), or check out David Hume.

Murat, all that matters here are facts and the validity of arguments. We have to talk about the details. We can't just generalize this and generalize that. Doing that is not work, but simply a rationale for laziness.

If you have a problem with Madden, then get your hands dirty and start talking about specific arguments that he brings up and cite counter-facts. Have a debate. If you believe in science, then be scientific for once. Engage your rationality.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Cali, how many accounts of the Crusades have you read, from Islamic perspective? Speaking of laziness...Jeez...at least I know Madden.

Zero, to be honest, unless you include Bin Laden's references to them. But I have read accounts of the Crusades from a Western anti-Catholic standpoint. So your point is moot.

So, you, who calls me lazy, have not read one opposing view on the subject from people who have lived through it (culturally and historically speaking), are telling me about treating this issue like in a chemist's lab, in a scientific manner? Are you effin kidding me? At least I have watched a bunch of videos of Madden! Jeez....:nono

 

[calitennis127]

Therein lies the problem: How bout NOT believing in any fairytales, living productive, peaceful lives, being nice to each other just because it is the right thing to do as opposed to being afraid of hellfire or expecting a reward of heaven, sometimes with bunch of virgins in it????

But murat, you do believe in fairytales. I have shown this over and over in numerous historical discussions of ours.

I bet THAT choice has not been given enough of a chance in this world. In fact I know it has not.

And this is case and point of you believing in fairytales. The French Revolutionaries, 19th century Marxists, and 20th century Leninists all believed the exact same things about religion that you do. Literally identical views about the Bible. And not only did their views "get a chance", they were forcibly imposed from on high.

Your idea that those ideas never have gotten a chance shows that you don't know many of the scientific/empirical realities of human history - in a word, your conclusions are irrational and based on misnomers that can easily be called "fairy tales".

 

[calitennis127]

Cali, how many accounts of the Crusades have you read, from Islamic perspective? Speaking of laziness...Jeez...at least I know Madden.

Zero, to be honest, unless you include Bin Laden's references to them. But I have read accounts of the Crusades from a Western anti-Catholic standpoint. So your point is moot.

So, you, who calls me lazy, have not read one opposing view on the subject from people who have lived through it (culturally and historically speaking), are telling me about treating this issue like in a chemist's lab, in a scientific manner? Are you effin kidding me? At least I have watched a bunch of videos of Madden! Jeez....:nono

You are the one who is refusing to talk about any details here, not me. You want to keep this conversation on a superficial level.

Now, given the almost pitiful level of scholarship in the Islamic world, I highly doubt that anything they could say against the Crusaders hasn't been said in Western universities, and with much more logical coherence. And, again, either way (whether I watch a mufti for four hours or not), we can either talk facts and details, or we can continue to generalize.

I already made you look like an ass for saying that Madden was just a biased Catholic by directly highlighting a quote of his that acknowledged Crusader atrocities.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Therein lies the problem: How bout NOT believing in any fairytales, living productive, peaceful lives, being nice to each other just because it is the right thing to do as opposed to being afraid of hellfire or expecting a reward of heaven, sometimes with bunch of virgins in it????

But murat, you do believe in fairytales. I have shown this over and over in numerous historical discussions of ours.

I bet THAT choice has not been given enough of a chance in this world. In fact I know it has not.

And this is case and point of you believing in fairytales. The French Revolutionaries, 19th century Marxists, and 20th century Leninists all believed the exact same things about religion that you do. Literally identical views about the Bible. And not only did their views "get a chance", they were forcibly imposed from on high.

Your idea that those ideas never have gotten a chance shows that you don't know many of the scientific/empirical realities of human history - in a word, your conclusions are irrational and based on misnomers that can easily be called "fairy tales".

The problem is, even though I have told you repeatedly that I have zero in common with said people and their ideologies, you are just a bit too slow to get it. Or , as always, you like arguing against positions you think others have. Either way, you don't get it, you will never get it. I guess it is against god's divine plan:laydownlaughing

 

[calitennis127]

The problem is, even though I have told you repeatedly that I have zero in common with said people and their ideologies, you are just a bit too slow to get it.

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion? You can distance yourself from them all you want but the realities are the realities.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

The problem is, even though I have told you repeatedly that I have zero in common with said people and their ideologies, you are just a bit too slow to get it. Or , as always, you like arguing against positions you think others have. Either way, you don't get it, you will never get it. I guess it is against god's divine plan:laydownlaughing

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion?

They would not be MY quotes, would they now?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

The problem is, even though I have told you repeatedly that I have zero in common with said people and their ideologies, you are just a bit too slow to get it.

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion? You can distance yourself from them all you want but the realities are the realities.

Just like you cannot distance yourself from creationists, right? After all, it is in the good book.

 

[brokenshoelace]

To further elaborate on what I mean, it's easy to nit-pick and justify. Barbarity is barbarity. And savageness and savageness. Massacres are massacres. Because by the same token, Quraysh was terrorizing and torturing Muslims in Mecca before Muhammad returned to Mecca with his army. It's no different, yet, does it make it any less of an act of war?

One huge difference there, Broken, is that the Crusaders did not found Christianity. Christ did. There is no question that Christians have done bad things throughout history, but the difference between them and Muslims is that when they have done those things they could not claim they were following the example of their Savior/prophet.

No but they can wipe out entire civilizations and claim they're mimicking their god.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

To further elaborate on what I mean, it's easy to nit-pick and justify. Barbarity is barbarity. And savageness and savageness. Massacres are massacres. Because by the same token, Quraysh was terrorizing and torturing Muslims in Mecca before Muhammad returned to Mecca with his army. It's no different, yet, does it make it any less of an act of war?

One huge difference there, Broken, is that the Crusaders did not found Christianity. Christ did. There is no question that Christians have done bad things throughout history, but the difference between them and Muslims is that when they have done those things they could not claim they were following the example of their Savior/prophet.

No but they can wipe out entire civilizations and claim they're mimicking their god.

Come on BS, you know you are not supposed to take those parts literally...

 

[calitennis127]

To further elaborate on what I mean, it's easy to nit-pick and justify. Barbarity is barbarity. And savageness and savageness. Massacres are massacres. Because by the same token, Quraysh was terrorizing and torturing Muslims in Mecca before Muhammad returned to Mecca with his army. It's no different, yet, does it make it any less of an act of war?

One huge difference there, Broken, is that the Crusaders did not found Christianity. Christ did. There is no question that Christians have done bad things throughout history, but the difference between them and Muslims is that when they have done those things they could not claim they were following the example of their Savior/prophet.

No but they can wipe out entire civilizations and claim they're mimicking their god.

Where did they make such claims?

 

[calitennis127]

The problem is, even though I have told you repeatedly that I have zero in common with said people and their ideologies, you are just a bit too slow to get it.

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion? You can distance yourself from them all you want but the realities are the realities.

Just like you cannot distance yourself from creationists, right? After all, it is in the good book.

I absolutely can distance myself from the Protestant fundamentalist idiots who have made Christianity look so dumb in the public sphere with their misunderstanding of Scripture and their ignorance of all relevant subjects.

Are you not aware of the immense amount of ink that has been spilled by Catholics such as Karl Keating, Dave Armstrong, and Patrick Madrid in refuting Protestant nonsense?

 

[calitennis127]

The problem is, even though I have told you repeatedly that I have zero in common with said people and their ideologies, you are just a bit too slow to get it. Or , as always, you like arguing against positions you think others have. Either way, you don't get it, you will never get it. I guess it is against god's divine plan:laydownlaughing

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion?

They would not be MY quotes, would they now?

The point here is simple, murat. You agree with the aforementioned on what you dub "religion". Yet, you are a follower of Ayn Rand, who had a more fanatical and fanciful cult behind her in the 1950s and 1960s than any Pope or caliph ever could have dreamed of creating.

Reading the book "The Ayn Rand Cult" a few years ago was great reading for some serious laughs. Talk about belief in fairy tales.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion?

They would not be MY quotes, would they now?

The point here is simple, murat. You agree with the aforementioned on what you dub "religion". Yet, you are a follower of Ayn Rand, who had a more fanatical and fanciful cult behind her in the 1950s and 1960s than any Pope or caliph ever could have dreamed of creating.

Reading the book "The Ayn Rand Cult" a few years ago was great reading for some serious laughs. Talk about belief in fairy tales.

You do know Rand is the antithesis of Marxism and Communism right? And there is no room for fairly tales in Objectivism right? Maybe one day you will grow up to be an individual too and not take orders from old perverts in Vatican who banned shellfish but was OK with slavery...:laydownlaughing

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Do you want me to list quotations from Marxists and Communists who DID GET POWER on religion? You can distance yourself from them all you want but the realities are the realities.

Just like you cannot distance yourself from creationists, right? After all, it is in the good book.

I absolutely can distance myself from the Protestant fundamentalist idiots who have made Christianity look so dumb in the public sphere with their misunderstanding of Scripture and their ignorance of all relevant subjects.

Are you not aware of the immense amount of ink that has been spilled by Catholics such as Karl Keating, Dave Armstrong, and Patrick Madrid in refuting Protestant nonsense?

I am sure protestants feel the same about your brand of nonsense. The common point? It is all nonsense.

How is it that it is always OTHERS that misunderstand this religion business Cali, but YOU understand it perfectly well? Don't you find it at least a bit...unusual?

And if everything else other than what you believe is nonsense, and others call what YOU believe nonsense, isn't it reasonable that maybe all of it is nonsense?