The real history of the Crusades.....

calitennis127

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Here is a fun discussion topic. Please read the fairly short article before commenting:

".....the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression — an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.....They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/the-crusades/the-real-history-of-the-crusades.html
 

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Thomas Madden is a fine historian whose won many awards for his work on the Crusades. Not pro- or anti- anything but the truth - and supplying facts and historic detail to back it up.

An important thing to remember is that the closing of the pilgrimage route to Jerusalem was a huge blow for pious Christians, who saw it as their duty to go there. Imagine the uproar if the US blocked access to Mecca during Hajj. It's a good article and of course, nowadays we're lazy about these things, blithely accepting that because it's the Church - blah blah - they do terrible things - blah blah - but in fact history tends to be more detailed and nuanced than that, and actually far more exciting...
 

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Kieran said:
Thomas Madden is a fine historian whose won many awards for his work on the Crusades. Not pro- or anti- anything but the truth - and supplying facts and historic detail to back it up.

An important thing to remember is that the closing of the pilgrimage route to Jerusalem was a huge blow for pious Christians, who saw it as their duty to go there. Imagine the uproar if the US blocked access to Mecca during Hajj. It's a good article and of course, nowadays we're lazy about these things, blithely accepting that because it's the Church - blah blah - they do terrible things - blah blah - but in fact history tends to be more detailed and nuanced than that, and actually far more exciting...

I agree in full. It is indeed more detailed, as evidenced by some of the details glossed over or just casually mentioned in the very article above (which otherwise raises valid points) such as the Massacre at Ayyadieh, the Jerusalem Massacre during the 1099 siege, and many others committed by the crusaders. In fairness, in the case of the latter, it is claimed that some Muslims and Jews were actually spared...as long as they left the city. Reminds me of some current events.

And no, I am never willing to put the slaughter of innocents under the casualties of war category, under any circumstances.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
And no, I am never willing to put the slaughter of innocents under the casualties of war category, under any circumstances.

Totally agree with you, and he's not asking you to do that. He's pointing out a terrible truth about wars, which happens today as well, which is that innocent people suffer too. Nobody has ever found a way to stop this happening. In fact, given the long-range nature of modern warfare, it's more likely to happen today.

It's an essay, not a complete book, but even in its brevity, he doesn't ignore the crimes and brutalities of the Crusaders. He mentions them, and he doesn't excuse them, but these aren't the focus of the essay. His books are broader than an essay. And so are the many books cited within the piece.

But as you say, he raises valid points, and hopefully articles like this will help people look more closely at actual history, and not just have a kneejerk "they're all mad medieval Christians, whatcha expect?" point of view...
 

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Kieran said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
And no, I am never willing to put the slaughter of innocents under the casualties of war category, under any circumstances.

Totally agree with you, and he's not asking you to do that. He's pointing out a terrible truth about wars, which happens today as well, which is that innocent people suffer too. Nobody has ever found a way to stop this happening. In fact, given the long-range nature of modern warfare, it's more likely to happen today.

It's an essay, not a complete book, but even in its brevity, he doesn't ignore the crimes and brutalities of the Crusaders. He mentions them, and he doesn't excuse them, but these aren't the focus of the essay. His books are broader than an essay. And so are the many books cited within the piece.

But as you say, he raises valid points, and hopefully articles like this will help people look more closely at actual history, and not just have a kneejerk "they're all mad medieval Christians, whatcha expect?" point of view...

Tongue-in-cheek sarcasm aside, yeah, he does raise valid points. That said, I think calling the crusades "defensive" from an ideological standpoint, which, while an interesting and potentially valid point, cannot in any way justify the atrocities that followed. So in my mind, I say: Screw ideology when innocents are dying. These acts WERE barbaric. This might make me sound like too much of an idealist but I have never, ever, accepted the "Well, that's war for you" justification.
 

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To further elaborate on what I mean, it's easy to nit-pick and justify. Barbarity is barbarity. And savageness and savageness. Massacres are massacres. Because by the same token, Quraysh was terrorizing and torturing Muslims in Mecca before Muhammad returned to Mecca with his army. It's no different, yet, does it make it any less of an act of war?
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
To further elaborate on what I mean, it's easy to nit-pick and justify. Barbarity is barbarity. And savageness and savageness. Massacres are massacres. Because by the same token, Quraysh was terrorizing and torturing Muslims in Mecca before Muhammad returned to Mecca with his army. It's no different, yet, does it make it any less of an act of war?

It's a part of the human condition we're no closer to solving. In fact, it seems so engrained as to be natural to the species. Nowadays we're just as barbaric, but more clinical about it, and we operate either at a distance, or beneath a veneer of sophistication. It's common to all tribes, in all regions of the world, that much is very clear...
 

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Madden is a good historian but if you listen to any of his talks, he always prefaces his talks by saying that it is "Through the eyes of Christianity" . So his "truth" will not always be the objective truth. The website Cali linked to is named "Catholiceducation.org". So , if you went to a different website that might be named "Islamiceducation", I am sure the events that took place would be depicted quite differently.

History is negotiable, depending on where you are coming from. Sure, a "true history" exists, but by now, who knows what it is...

By the way, reading the links that are to the left of the page, about homosexuality, contraceptives, Islam, I see where almost all of Cali's positions are coming from, and once again I thank GOD I am an atheist ;)
 

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1972Murat said:
Madden is a good historian but if you listen to any of his talks, he always prefaces his talks by saying that it is "Through the eyes of Christianity" . So his "truth" will not always be the objective truth. The website Cali linked to is named "Catholiceducation.org". So , if you went to a different website that might be named "Islamiceducation", I am sure the events that took place would be depicted quite differently.

History is negotiable, depending on where you are coming from. Sure, a "true history" exists, but by now, who knows what it is...

By the way, reading the links that are to the left of the page, about homosexuality, contraceptives, Islam, I see where almost all of Cali's positions are coming from, and once again I thank GOD I am an atheist ;)

Very good post Murat. That is why academic historians spend considerable amounts of their training studying historiography, in order to historicize the constructions of historical accounts and their own work. It is more than fair to say, and for the sake of honesty, should be said that the crusaders were complex people, with complicated and varying motivations, like their islamic opponents. None of that excuses their crimes, but should serve as a lesson to how people can in the name of "good" commit terrible crimes with clear consciences.
 

calitennis127

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1972Murat said:
Madden is a good historian but if you listen to any of his talks, he always prefaces his talks by saying that it is "Through the eyes of Christianity" . So his "truth" will not always be the objective truth. The website Cali linked to is named "Catholiceducation.org". So , if you went to a different website that might be named "Islamiceducation", I am sure the events that took place would be depicted quite differently.

No, murat, history is not so malleable as that. I often hear that as an excuse to not study history or to not take historical arguments seriously. Unfortunately, that is impossible, and philosophy rests on historical understanding. The field of history is much like a court room: you may not dig up every little detail of what happened and why, but with honest effort and close scrutiny, you can eliminate the absurd possibilities and get a very good idea of what happened.

1972Murat said:
History is negotiable, depending on where you are coming from. Sure, a "true history" exists, but by now, who knows what it is...

Oh well, you are not so negotiable when it comes to discussing the history of religion, are you? One of your life premises is that history clearly shows how religion has caused more harm and suffering than anything else, isn't it?

Is that not a historical understanding which provides the basis for a philosophical worldview?

1972Murat said:
By the way, reading the links that are to the left of the page, about homosexuality, contraceptives, Islam, I see where almost all of Cali's positions are coming from, and once again I thank GOD I am an atheist ;)

I actually don't read that website too much, partially because I'm not overly interested in theology as compared to other things and also because that website tends to be excessively influenced by the likes of George Weigel and other neoconservative Catholics.

But, as for the conversation about history, let me quote a different source - the great twentieth century political thinker James Burnham in his book "The Managerial Revolution". Burnham was a religious skeptic and an utterly brilliant man who viewed politics in a highly scientific way. From p. 119 of this classic work:

"The science of history does not, or should not, lay claim to the precision of physics. Nevertheless, sufficiently meaningful and accurate broad answers can be given. These answers need not be imaginative speculation. We have evidence, considerable evidence, upon which to base them: the experiences, namely, of what has already happened in the transition period. The past, after all, is the only source of knowledge about the future. "

p. 283:

"When we deal with the problems of history we usually misread them in terms of what we hope instead of understanding them as the evidence dictates. "

p. 278:

"We try to arrange our data in an orderly manner; and, on the basis of past experience, we make probable predictions about the future. If we don’t yet know society as we know the solar system, we yet do know, if we want to, something about it; and, as in the other sciences, we can know at least some things, with some degree of probability, before they happen. Because it lets us know what is probably going to happen before it happens – that, after all, is why scientific knowledge is worth having. "
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
To further elaborate on what I mean, it's easy to nit-pick and justify. Barbarity is barbarity. And savageness and savageness. Massacres are massacres. Because by the same token, Quraysh was terrorizing and torturing Muslims in Mecca before Muhammad returned to Mecca with his army. It's no different, yet, does it make it any less of an act of war?


One huge difference there, Broken, is that the Crusaders did not found Christianity. Christ did. There is no question that Christians have done bad things throughout history, but the difference between them and Muslims is that when they have done those things they could not claim they were following the example of their Savior/prophet.

You can be a wonderful person and say that you were imitating Muhammad. You can also kill kids in schools like Boko Haram and the Taliban have recently, and say that you were imitating Muhammad as well.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
I agree in full. It is indeed more detailed, as evidenced by some of the details glossed over or just casually mentioned in the very article above (which otherwise raises valid points) such as the Massacre at Ayyadieh, the Jerusalem Massacre during the 1099 siege, and many others committed by the crusaders. In fairness, in the case of the latter, it is claimed that some Muslims and Jews were actually spared...as long as they left the city.

You probably didn't have much time to read the article closely, but Madden addresses this point directly, and like Kieran said, he was doing so in a brief manner suitable for an article, not a book.

But allow me to re-quote this one key part of the article. Does the first portion that I bold jibe with murat's lazy as can be, sittin-on-my-couch-eating-potato-chips assertion that Madden is just a biased Catholic? To the contrary, Madden is acknowledging that the Christians did some terrible things and he is addressing these instances head-on; he's not dancing around them or skirting the issue:

"The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews' money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.

Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:

Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."

Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres.

It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children."

So to Broken's point that there were moments of savagery and anti-Semitism in the Crusades, I say, yes, absolutely. But we also have clear evidence that Church leaders and clergy, such as St. Bernard, went out of their way to stop the ordinary fighters from perpetrating further massacres. And at no point was official doctrinal sanction from the authorities on high given to these actions.
 

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calitennis127 said:
1972Murat said:
Madden is a good historian but if you listen to any of his talks, he always prefaces his talks by saying that it is "Through the eyes of Christianity" . So his "truth" will not always be the objective truth. The website Cali linked to is named "Catholiceducation.org". So , if you went to a different website that might be named "Islamiceducation", I am sure the events that took place would be depicted quite differently.

No, murat, history is not so malleable as that. I often hear that as an excuse to not study history or to not take historical arguments seriously. Unfortunately, that is impossible, and philosophy rests on historical understanding. The field of history is much like a court room: you may not dig up every little detail of what happened and why, but with honest effort and close scrutiny, you can eliminate the absurd possibilities and get a very good idea of what happened.

...and even then, historians from the opposite side of the issues will come up with their own versions. Goes all the way back to the beginning of mankind. Ramesses claimed he won the battle of Kadesh against the Hittites and nobody would have known any better had other versions of the event were not discovered.

I respect history and the historians that work hard at digging and preserving it. At no piont though , I fool myself to think that everyone is unbiased.
 

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1972Murat said:
calitennis127 said:
1972Murat said:
Madden is a good historian but if you listen to any of his talks, he always prefaces his talks by saying that it is "Through the eyes of Christianity" . So his "truth" will not always be the objective truth. The website Cali linked to is named "Catholiceducation.org". So , if you went to a different website that might be named "Islamiceducation", I am sure the events that took place would be depicted quite differently.

No, murat, history is not so malleable as that. I often hear that as an excuse to not study history or to not take historical arguments seriously. Unfortunately, that is impossible, and philosophy rests on historical understanding. The field of history is much like a court room: you may not dig up every little detail of what happened and why, but with honest effort and close scrutiny, you can eliminate the absurd possibilities and get a very good idea of what happened.

...and even then, historians from the opposite side of the issues will come up with their own versions. Goes all the way back to the beginning of mankind. Ramesses claimed he won the battle of Kadesh against the Hittites and nobody would have known any better had other versions of the event were not discovered.

I respect history and the historians that work hard at digging and preserving it. At no piont though , I fool myself to think that everyone is unbiased.

Who cares? You can have a bias and be completely right. It is possible to overcome it when applying reason. Do you not believe in reason?

Sir Henry Huxley was very biased against the Church in his personal views, but he showed capacity for even-handedness when he studied the Galileo affair and concluded that "the Church had the better of it".

You think regular scientists don't battle their own biases all the time when they study something like evolution or global warming? Scientists are humans, not robots, and they have philosophical convictions just like everyone else. And there has been more than a little bit of evidence of scientists making over-the-top arguments about global warming because they want it to be real. So should we discard science as well?
 

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calitennis127 said:
1972Murat said:
calitennis127 said:
No, murat, history is not so malleable as that. I often hear that as an excuse to not study history or to not take historical arguments seriously. Unfortunately, that is impossible, and philosophy rests on historical understanding. The field of history is much like a court room: you may not dig up every little detail of what happened and why, but with honest effort and close scrutiny, you can eliminate the absurd possibilities and get a very good idea of what happened.

...and even then, historians from the opposite side of the issues will come up with their own versions. Goes all the way back to the beginning of mankind. Ramesses claimed he won the battle of Kadesh against the Hittites and nobody would have known any better had other versions of the event were not discovered.

I respect history and the historians that work hard at digging and preserving it. At no piont though , I fool myself to think that everyone is unbiased.

Who cares? You can have a bias and be completely right. It is possible to overcome it when applying reason. Do you not believe in reason?

Sir Henry Huxley was very biased against the Church in his personal views, but he showed capacity for even-handedness when he studied the Galileo affair and concluded that "the Church had the better of it".

You think regular scientists don't battle their own biases all the time when they study something like evolution or global warming? Scientists are humans, not robots, and they have philosophical convictions just like everyone else. And there has been more than a little bit of evidence of scientists making over-the-top arguments about global warming because they want it to be real. So we should we discard science as well?

Science has no problem changing or revising its position in light of new evidence. Science actually welcomes it. Do you think Madden will ever change his position on what took place during the crusades if he reads an essay from an islamic scholar...or visa versa?
 

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1972Murat said:
calitennis127 said:
1972Murat said:
...and even then, historians from the opposite side of the issues will come up with their own versions. Goes all the way back to the beginning of mankind. Ramesses claimed he won the battle of Kadesh against the Hittites and nobody would have known any better had other versions of the event were not discovered.

I respect history and the historians that work hard at digging and preserving it. At no piont though , I fool myself to think that everyone is unbiased.

Who cares? You can have a bias and be completely right. It is possible to overcome it when applying reason. Do you not believe in reason?

Sir Henry Huxley was very biased against the Church in his personal views, but he showed capacity for even-handedness when he studied the Galileo affair and concluded that "the Church had the better of it".

You think regular scientists don't battle their own biases all the time when they study something like evolution or global warming? Scientists are humans, not robots, and they have philosophical convictions just like everyone else. And there has been more than a little bit of evidence of scientists making over-the-top arguments about global warming because they want it to be real. So we should we discard science as well?

Science has no problem changing or revising its position in light of new evidence. Science actually welcomes it. Do you think Madden will ever change his position on what took place during the crusades if he reads an essay from an islamic scholar...or visa versa?


I am absolutely sure that his views have evolved on the matter as he has studied it for over 30 years. Do you think he arrived at his conclusions by just sitting on the couch and watching a couple DVDs on the Crusades? Are you kidding me?

That is more so the approach of people like Bill Clinton and the makers of the "Kingdom of Heaven" movie.

Madden has come to his conclusions after painstaking research for a very long time. He has received awards for excellent scholarship. He has worked immensely hard to learn about the age. And, as I pointed out in my post to Broken, he is very even-handed.

And he is hardly the only scholar of the medieval era to reach the conclusions that he has about the Crusades. There is also Jonathan Riley-Smith from Cambridge (with books published through Yale University Press) as well, for starters.
 

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calitennis127 said:
I am absolutely sure that his views have evolved on the matter as he has studied it for over 30 years. Do you think he arrived at his conclusions by just sitting on the couch and watching a couple DVDs on the Crusades? Are you kidding me?

That is more so the approach of people like Bill Clinton and the makers of the "Kingdom of Heaven" movie.

Madden has come to his conclusions after painstaking research for a very long time. He has received awards for excellent scholarship. He has worked immensely hard to learn about the age. And, as I pointed out in my post to Broken, he is very even-handed.

And he is hardly the only scholar of the medieval era to reach the conclusions that he has about the Crusades. There is also Jonathan Riley-Smith from Cambridge (with books published through Yale University Press) as well, for starters.



Bro, you don't get it. I am sure Madden worked hard, did his homework, came to certain conclusions. I am saying for every Madden, there is someone else with a different perspective that worked just as hard at coming to HIS conclusions.

But that's where you KNOW your truths are absolute , your historians are the only correct ones , your version of christianity is the only acceptable one, etc...which ends the discussion right there for all practical purposes.
 

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1972Murat said:
Bro, you don't get it. I am sure Madden worked hard, did his homework, came to certain conclusions. I am saying for every Madden, there is someone else with a different perspective that worked just as hard at coming to HIS conclusions.

Okay, show me one. And if you can, then what we have to do instead of being lazy is pick up their books, analyze them, utilize our reason, compare the arguments, and find out who is right. In other words - treat it like chemists in the lab.

You are simply an advocate for laziness.

1972Murat said:
But that's where you KNOW your truths are absolute , your historians are the only correct ones , your version of christianity is the only acceptable one, etc...which ends the discussion right there for all practical purposes.

No, what I KNOW is that we are endowed with reason and we shouldn't be lazy, but should utilize our reason in rigorous analysis, whether we are talking about past tennis matches, legal cases, or historical events (all of which are history - what happened 15 minutes ago is no less history than what happened 15 years ago). Like Burnham said "The science of history does not, or should not, lay claim to the precision of physics. Nevertheless, sufficiently meaningful and accurate broad answers can be given. These answers need not be imaginative speculation. "

You should go back and read Burnham's quotes again and ponder them.