The GOAT Discussion (Men)

[GameSetAndMath]

Cassano says Messi is like Fed and Ronaldo is like Nadal and therefore Messi is GOAT . The important point in the argument is the use of Fed as GOAT as an axiom that is universally agreed.

 

[Andy22]

Cassano says Messi is like Fed and Ronaldo is like Nadal and therefore Messi is GOAT . The important point in the argument is the use of Fed as GOAT as an axiom that is universally agreed.

First messi is not goat, he's 0 international titles proves that, second ronaldo more like federer than nadal, both talk like they are goat which is true.

 

[Denis]

Bump.

Novak 'only' 5 slams behind Fed and 2 behind Nadal. Today was very important to stay in the conversation. I remember posters like @shawnbm claiming Novak would win only 12 slams. Lol.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I don’t think it will matter at the end because these 3 will go down as the goats and own all the records. Maybe Federer will hold on to the record by 1 or 2 slams, but it’s not enough of a lead. He had the advantage to accumulate a lot of slams before Nadal and Djokovic arrived on the scene. I think when all is said and done we will say that Federer is the goat on grass, Nadal the goat on clay and Djokovic the goat on hardcourt.

 

[mrzz]

The fun thing is that the difference is exactly where it was in the end of 2016.

 

[Horsa]

Bump.

Novak 'only' 5 slams behind Fed and 2 behind Nadal. Today was very important to stay in the conversation. I remember posters like @shawnbm claiming Novak would win only 12 slams. Lol.

I miss Shawn & hope he's o.k. & comes back.

 

[Denis]

The fun thing is that the difference is exactly where it was in the end of 2016.

Hehe good one. Still think Novak has the future as he has the edge in 3/4 slams against Nads and 4/4 against Fed.

 

[Ricardo]

I will not shoot you. But I think they've got a lot of nerve to put Djokovic over Nadal already. Short-sighted bandwagoners. Likewise, as much as I am a huge Borg fan, his standing is someways is a bit cult-ish. Also I think Pete is overrated on the list. I agree with the women at the top.

What BJK over Court? Court was simply better than BJK in their day, records or not. The list is for people like you

 

[mrzz]

Hehe good one. Still think Novak has the future as he has the edge in 3/4 slams against Nads and 4/4 against Fed.

Djokovic surely has the future against Fedal, but... I really doubt Fedal would be the ones he has to worry about going forward.

Honestly I think people (not you) underestimate how hard is to win a major. They are now pretty sure Djokovic can tie Federer's record. But he still lacks five, which is one third of everything he got his entire career. It is a lot. And he is about to be 32 (right?). Same goes for Nadal, which is a bit older if I am not mistaken. It is funny how the whole future prediction completely changes from one major to another. Had Nadal won today then anyone would be as sure as hell he would surpass Federer. Now everyone is as sure as hell Djokovic passes both (ok, he is riding on three wins). I am sure that if none of them wins RG, everything changes again, predictions wise.

I stick to my prediction that Fedal are done (as far as majors go). Djokovic already won more than I would have thought six months ago, but I still don't think he wins much more than three more. In now way I say this as a dig at him, it is just that I think winning majors is a pretty difficult thing to do. In other words, fast forward one year, would you be sure Djokovic could beat a guy like Medvedev (considering where he could be in 2020)? Total dominance asks for head and shoulders level above the field, that is what I do not see right now. The only guy I see head and shoulders above the field is Djokovic in terms of consistency.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Well Djokovic is now in an interesting position, he can win all 4 in a row again which is something Nadal and Federer were never able to do. He can also win the French for a second time and do something which Nadal and Federer hasn’t done either win each Slam multiple times. If he does that, these smaller details matter. Only thing Djokovic doesn’t have is that gold medal which hopefully he can remedy in 2020 which might be tough because who knows.

 

[britbox]

If Djokovic pulls of the Calendar Grand Slam, I'd consider him the GOAT with 18.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

If Djokovic pulls of the Calendar Grand Slam, I'd consider him the GOAT with 18.

He needs a singles Gold medal at the Olympics too, so does Federer. Right now Nadal is the GOAT because he has the Career Golden Slam and La Undecima, the 2 biggest accomplishments in human history.

 

[Moxie]

If Djokovic pulls of the Calendar Grand Slam, I'd consider him the GOAT with 18.

Magnanimous. Wait til it happens, and then until all is said and done. I think the arguments will go on, including by you.

 

[El Dude]

He needs a singles Gold medal at the Olympics too, so does Federer. Right now Nadal is the GOAT because he has the Career Golden Slam and La Undecima, the 2 biggest accomplishments in human history.

No he doesn't. Olympic Gold is a nice perk, but it is an extra and has absolutely no impact on GOATdom.

I would say that it is far more important for Rafa to win an ATP Tour Finals. That is the big glaring gap in his resume.

 

[El Dude]

If Djokovic pulls of the Calendar Grand Slam, I'd consider him the GOAT with 18.

Yeah, I agree. That would be hard to argue against. But as Moxie said, let's talk when we get there.

Right now I think he has edged past Rafa. Again, actually, as I argued that he had surpassed Rafa back in 2016 when he won the French and completed the "Nole Slam." At that point the Slam count was 14 to 12, but Novak had much better peripherals. Same situation right now. Novak simply has a better overall resume.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

No he doesn't. Olympic Gold is a nice perk, but it is an extra and has absolutely no impact on GOATdom.

I would say that it is far more important for Rafa to win an ATP Tour Finals. That is the big glaring gap in his resume.

Lol Djokovic Federer Nadal have all compared the Olympics to a slam. However none consider the WTF anywhere near a slam. I’ll take their word over yours thank you very much.

 

[El Dude]

Lol Djokovic Federer Nadal have all compared the Olympics to a slam. However none consider the WTF anywhere near a slam. I’ll take their word over yours thank you very much.

Alright, let's do this.

Consider the players who have won Olympic Gold: Murray x2, Nadal, Massu, Kafelnikov, Agassi, Rosset, Edberg, Mecir.

That's eight players, and only three 6+ Slam winners. In other words, Nadal is only one of three "great" players to win Olympic Gold.

Now consider eight players who haven't (only players who were elite level in 1988 or later, when Olympics tennis re-started): Federer, Djokovic, Sampras, Becker, Wilander, Lendl, McEnroe, Courier.

Hmm...which is a better group of players?

The Olympics happens every four years. Because of that, not all great players win it. Now is it a nice and impressive accomplishment? Absolutely. But again, it isn't a factor in GOATdom, except as part of the big title total.

Now consider this list of 6+ Slam winners who haven't won an ATP Tour Finals: Nadal, Wilander.

And the list of 6+ Slam winners who have won it: Connors, Borg, Lendl, McEnroe, Becker, Edberg, Sampras, Agassi, Federer, Djokovic.

In other words, of the 12 players who have won 6+ Slams in the Open Era, what we could call "all-time greats," Nadal is one of only two who haven't won the Tour Finals, and the only one of five 10+ Slam winners. All of the other GOAT candidates (10+ Slam winners)--Borg, Sampras, Federer, Djokovic--have all won it at least TWICE.

So yeah, I'd say the lack of a World Tour Finals is a much bigger hole in a GOAT resume.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Sorry but the Olympics today in the era of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic is as important as a slam if not more. It has nothing to do with Becker, Laver or whoever. When the big three were going for the Olympics gold it was as big as a slam and that’s all that matters.

If you want to go back in time then I can say that the Australian open historically is far behind the other 3 slams as tons of legends used to skip it. This means that Nadal has more “big” slams then Djokovic or Federer. But see that’s not how it works because when these 3 were competing the Australian Open and the Olympics were up there with the others, and that’s all that matters.

For the era of Federer, Djokovic and Nadal the Olympics is far more important then the WTF.

 

[El Dude]

Again, maybe in terms of bragging rights, but not in terms of assessing GOATdom.

My point being, if you want to make a list of what a GOAT "must" have on his resume, Olympics Gold is not on it. If it was, that list of eight players would be the only ones who could be the GOAT, which is simply absurd.

 

[Mile]

ATP Finale is in front of Olympic gold. GOATing will be done after they finish career. Then a lot will have to be said, by many of them.

I would like to see the list of Laver again, if he would publish new list.