The GOAT Discussion (Men)

britbox

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Excellent article here by Steve Tignor as to why Djokovic should not be thrown into the "goat" debate yet. Let's enjoy the amazing tennis he's playing and let that be appreciated. There will be plenty of time for the "goat" debate by the end of his career,i if it's even a debate by that time.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016/06/savoring-their-moments/59154/#.V2ptCZMrKHo

Good read, although I think GOAT debates can be fun and shouldn't be taken too seriously... and there is still room to appreciate both.
I went off on a tangent and even started thinking about Barkley's basketball GOAT list.... Magic not on it!! heresy!
 

EdbergsGhost

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The article itself supports goat debates. It's simply encouraging readers to savor the moments of players at their peak rather than launching them into the mix of whose the best. I tend to agree.
 

DarthFed

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Excellent article. A big part of it is that GOAT debates make for the juiciest discussions so the media will always be comparing Players X and Y. I don't think that takes away from what athletes like Lebron and Djokovic are currently doing. There is plenty of coverage about their recent amazing achievements but there are also going to be plenty articles that are just about comparing them to former greats.

And yes, Barkley's list is laughable. I like Chuck but he can be pretty biased. He must have some beef with Magic and he has never liked Lebron. Putting Kobe and Duncan ahead of either is laughable.
 
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britbox

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ESPN come up with their Top 20 of All Time.

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/16371992/tennis-top-20

This is a mix of men and women (which seems strange to begin with)...


1. Roger Federer
2. Steffi Graf
3. Serena Williams
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Rod Laver
6. Pete Sampras
7. Bjorn Borg
8. Novak Djokovic
9. Rafael Nadal
10. Chris Evert
11. John McEnroe
12. Jimmy Connors
13. Andre Agassi
14. Billie Jean King
15. Margaret Court
16. Ivan Lendl
17. Boris Becker
18. Monica Seles
19. Roy Emerson
20. Don Budge

Don't shoot the messenger ;)
 

Billie

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Yeah, what is the reason of mixing men and women? They don't do it for any other sport, I think.
 

Moxie

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I will not shoot you. But I think they've got a lot of nerve to put Djokovic over Nadal already. Short-sighted bandwagoners. Likewise, as much as I am a huge Borg fan, his standing is someways is a bit cult-ish. Also I think Pete is overrated on the list. I agree with the women at the top.
 

Carol

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ESPN come up with their Top 20 of All Time.

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/16371992/tennis-top-20

This is a mix of men and women (which seems strange to begin with)...


1. Roger Federer
2. Steffi Graf
3. Serena Williams
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Rod Laver
6. Pete Sampras
7. Bjorn Borg
8. Novak Djokovic
9. Rafael Nadal
10. Chris Evert
11. John McEnroe
12. Jimmy Connors
13. Andre Agassi
14. Billie Jean King
15. Margaret Court
16. Ivan Lendl
17. Boris Becker
18. Monica Seles
19. Roy Emerson
20. Don Budge

Don't shoot the messenger ;)

That "choice/list" is because the amount of GS, weeks as #1 or something else?
 

Moxie

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Yeah, what is the reason of mixing men and women? They don't do it for any other sport, I think.
But tennis is rather unique amongst top sports in how much cross-pollination there is with the men's and women's games. They play a lot of tournaments together, so there are a lot of tennis fans who follow both men's and women's. Almost whether you want to, or not. That alone is rare in sports. Also, for how long the women's game has been a big factor, so that allows for historic comparison.
 

Moxie

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That "choice/list" is because the amount of GS, weeks as #1 or something else?
It's completely subjective, like every other GOAT list.
 

britbox

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It was formed by the ESPN Panel via discussion - there isn't any science behind it, so yes - completely subjective. Certainly some weird ones thrown in....

Pancho Gonzalez and Ken Rosewall don't make the list at all but Roy Emerson does? :nono:

Billie Jean King ahead of Margaret Court :nono:
 
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Billie

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But tennis is rather unique amongst top sports in how much cross-pollination there is with the men's and women's games. They play a lot of tournaments together, so there are a lot of tennis fans who follow both men's and women's. Almost whether you want to, or not. That alone is rare in sports. Also, for how long the women's game has been a big factor, so that allows for historic comparison.

The fact remains that they don't play against each other, and they have their separate tours. So it is only logical for me to have separate lists as well. Track and field, swimming, gymnastics competitions always include both men and women, I am sure some other sports that escape me now but people usually don't compare them against each other.
 
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britbox

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They did something similar on tennis.com (mixing the tours together) when they ranked the Top 50 or 100 (can't remember exactly) for an anniversary edition of the Tennis Magazine a few years ago.
 

Moxie

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The fact remains that they don't play against each other, and they have their separate tours. So it is only logical for me to have separate lists as well. Track and field, swimming, gymnastics competitions always include both men and women, I am sure some other sports that escape me now but people usually don't compare them against each other.
My point was "top sports," and even still, many would rank tennis (and golf) as 2nd tier. In any case, we are above T&F, swimming and gymnastics. But think about it this way: in how many top sports do you discuss the men's and women's games nearly equally? Tennis. Only. And they actually do play against each other, and with each other. A certain amount of gaming is going on about the mixed doubles at the up-coming Olympics. Men's and women's tennis is more intertwined than any top sport out there. I agree with you that it isn't easy to mix a GOAT list, but I get why they feel they can.
 

Moxie

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Sorry...I was just fixing my edit.
 

Billie

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My point was "top sports," and even still, many would rank tennis (and golf) as 2nd tier. In any case, we are above T&F, swimming and gymnastics. But think about it this way: in how many top sports do you discuss the men's and women's games nearly equally? Tennis. Only. And they actually do play against each other, and with each other. A certain amount of gaming is going on about the mixed doubles at the up-coming Olympics. Men's and women's tennis is more intertwined than any top sport out there. I agree with you that it isn't easy to mix a GOAT list, but I get why they feel they can.

So what are these top sports: basketball, baseball, football, soccer? Even though all sportswomen are to be admired, they need to be stacked against their own competition. Just my opinion.

And admit it, you just like to needle me, don't you?:yesyes::lol3:
 

Moxie

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So what are these top sports: basketball, baseball, football, soccer? Even though all sportswomen are to be admired, they need to be stacked against their own competition. Just my opinion.

And admit it, you just like to needle me, don't you?:yesyes::lol3:
Not you, in particular. You know I just like a good scrap. :drums:
 

teddytennisfan

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It was formed by the ESPN Panel via discussion - there isn't any science behind it, so yes - completely subjective. Certainly some weird ones thrown in....

Pancho Gonzalez and Ken Rosewall don't make the list at all but Roy Emerson does? :nono:

Billie Jean King ahead of Margaret Court :nono:


the ESPN CROWD are idiots.

and based on the ''all-american'' world view of what is ''the standard" according to their ideas .

for example -- the fact that PANCHO GONZALES -- american though HE WAS -- is seen as ''not eligible" by these measurements -- because these espn folks take their sense of history from the likes of JOHN MCENROE -- who -- great as HE IS -- doesnt QUITE get it that regardless of pancho's ABSENCE OF ''MANY MAJORS" -- as opposed to that of ROD LAVER whom MCenroe IDOLIZES -

IT WAS PANCHO GONZALES who -- even by rod laver, ken rosewall's (multiple majors holders in BOTH amateur and professional slams) --

was considered by THEMSELVES ''AS THE KING OF US ALL"

that was KEN ROSEWALL'S own WORDS.

rod laver HIMSELF said of pancho

"whether during the amateurs or pros -- we were ALL afraid of pancho --

he was so great and with his temper we were all very, very careful Never TO ANNOY HIM -- because it meant he would get mad -- and THAT meant he played even BETTER and THAT mean WE HAD NO CHANCE AT ALL".

so - ya -- the FATHER OF MODERN TENNIS -- pancho gonzales himself

doesn't make it to ESPN............i am not surprised.

BLKING over COURT? GIVE ME A BREAK!

their main reason being tha t''court won 11 of her majors in australia when few international stars made the long trek by boat"..


so what?" WHEN MARGARET COURT ENTERED THE INTERNATIONAL MAJORS -- AS PROS -- AGAINST the likes of BILLIE JEAN KING who

in the ABSENCE OF COURT AS she got married, had kids, etc -- and basically retired EARLY in the first leg of her career before feeling the burn to get back AS PRO --

BILLIE WAS THEN WORLD NUMBER ONE, --

AND WHAT DOES COURT DO ?

WHIP BILL.IE AND ALL THE REST OF THEM INCLUDING EVERT AND GOOLAGONG TO SUBMISSION --

just to remind the world WHO was the REAL queen of tennis in their times>

MARGARET COURT!

she WON HER GRAND SLAM - AS A PRO -- during a time when she HAD TO TOPPLE BILLIE JEAN KING from the top ranks -- BJK -- who earned HER ranking when margaret was AWAY from the sport raising her baby!

and THAT'S when margaret court showed everyone she was not just a 'has- been'

but actually BETTER AND THE GREAT CHAMPION and athlete of their times!

OVER bjk and company -- and it was ONLY until the much later years of court that bjk and others regained the upper hand as the somewhat fresher players --

and only then matched in dominance BY navratilova in HER heydeys..

BILLIE JEAN KING OVER COURT?

nonsense!

it has to do with POLITICAL CORRECTNESS because BJK has that other

''women's liberation -- gender equality, gay lesbian, cause " she has (a worthy one in its own way) BUT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO THE GREATER TENNIS PLAYER , CHAMPION AND ATHLETE IS!

the top of the lines names of history:


MARGARET COURT, MARTINA NAVRATILOVA, STEFFI GRAF AND SERENA WILLIAMS.,


end of story.
 

teddytennisfan

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I AM GOING TO GET MY PLASTIC WATER PISTOL!!!

pow pow pow at Britbox!!! bwahahahaha......
 

teddytennisfan

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Not you, in particular. You know I just like a good scrap. :drums:


Moxie -- whats your take on SERENA lately?

I AM getting a bit concerned that TWO finals in a row - and she folds? or couldn't UP HER GAME a bit more?

nonetheless -- GO QUEEN SERENA!!
 

Moxie

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Moxie -- whats your take on SERENA lately?

I AM getting a bit concerned that TWO finals in a row - and she folds? or couldn't UP HER GAME a bit more?

nonetheless -- GO QUEEN SERENA!!
TTF, I loved the impassioned rant, I must say. As to Serena, I think it's too soon to panic. It is much the same with Roger fans in the old days, but we can't expect that they just wake up, drink coffee and win a Major. TBH, I think losing in the SF at the USO last year took some wind out of her sails, but she is still hungry, and she is still tougher than basically anyone on the women's tour. I'd worry more if Azarenka were healthy. I still think she'll tie and pass the record.