The Coach Effect

[Moxie]

RE: General tennis news

I don't know what people need to be convinced of. He took a right-handed kid and brought him all the way through the ranks to be a lefty legend, and winner on all surfaces. What he's achieved is amazing.

Some guys coach a kid so far - but are unable to go further.

And others take an already great player and improve them, but most likely wouldn't take a raw rookie three year old to greatness. Uncle T did both...

There is absolutely no basis for these claims. This sounds like a coach trying to make the role of a coach more important than it is. Rafa Nadal is the all time great, there is absolutely no proof Uncle Toni has anything to do with his abilities on the tennis court. Perhaps Rafa would have won more if he would have played with his right hand. Toni's contribution is pure speculation, for all I am concerned. It's nothing like managing a football team, where you actually do make decisions independently that have an impact on the outcome of a match.

What we do know is what Uncle Toni says in press conferences, and that usually self-serving, moronic nonsense.

Uh...Nadal didn't teach himself to play tennis and judging by Rafael's book, Toni is not merely a cheerleader and has helped shape his game, develop game plans, and helped him work on weaknesses. Of course, it's Rafa who should and does get 95% of the credit, but to say that "there is no proof that Toni has anything to do with Nadal's abilities on a tennis court" is perplexing. Why do you think he's called a "coach"?

PS: I always maintain that a coach's role is occasionally overstated. After all, it's the player being alone out there doing all the work. But on the practice court, in the locker room, etc...the coach does play an important role. Because keep in mind, by the same token, there is never any proof that any coach has anything to do with a player's results. Can you provide any proof for Vajda's contributions? That doesn't mean they don't exist.

I actually agree with this. Seems like a fair assessment of the importance of a coach. Point is with tennis, it overwhelmingly up to the player itself. Giving Toni 5% of the credit is a bit rich though, in my assessment. But if it works for Rafa, that's all that matters.

I also agree that only so much credit can go to a coach, however, there are important things they instill, especially when they've been with a player so long. (In Toni's case, since birth.) There's no reason you should follow Rafa as closely as we fans do, so you won't know that, while Rafa seems to have brought a preternatural ability to focus, and a huge competitiveness into the world with him, I think Toni gets some credit for harnessing it for the good, and combining it with discipline, work ethic and humility. The Nadal's decided against sending Rafael to Barcelona to be trained, and IMO this decision could have been key. If competitiveness alone is fostered, it can lead to brattiness. And because he was a prodigy, he might have gotten too big for himself early. This is only speculation, but I do think that the guiding (strict) hand of an older relative helped him to continue to improve. Rafa would have won many things with his talent alone, but I wonder if he'd have a career slam, for example, without Toni. It's the early molding of the clay that makes the player. For myself, I don't have a problem giving the uncle at least 5% of the credit for the height of the achievements.

 

[Kieran]

RE: General tennis news

I don't know what people need to be convinced of. He took a right-handed kid and brought him all the way through the ranks to be a lefty legend, and winner on all surfaces. What he's achieved is amazing.

Some guys coach a kid so far - but are unable to go further.

And others take an already great player and improve them, but most likely wouldn't take a raw rookie three year old to greatness. Uncle T did both...

There is absolutely no basis for these claims. This sounds like a coach trying to make the role of a coach more important than it is. Rafa Nadal is the all time great, there is absolutely no proof Uncle Toni has anything to do with his abilities on the tennis court. Perhaps Rafa would have won more if he would have played with his right hand. Toni's contribution is pure speculation, for all I am concerned. It's nothing like managing a football team, where you actually do make decisions independently that have an impact on the outcome of a match.

What we do know is what Uncle Toni says in press conferences, and that usually self-serving, moronic nonsense.

You don't like him, right?

If you think the coach's role is so insignificant, why have all you Djoker fans got your knickers in a knot about Becker?

Coaches can be great coaches, and they can be less than great. Uncle T is evidently a great coach...

 

[Ricardo]

RE: General tennis news

I don't know what people need to be convinced of. He took a right-handed kid and brought him all the way through the ranks to be a lefty legend, and winner on all surfaces. What he's achieved is amazing.

Some guys coach a kid so far - but are unable to go further.

And others take an already great player and improve them, but most likely wouldn't take a raw rookie three year old to greatness. Uncle T did both...

There is absolutely no basis for these claims. This sounds like a coach trying to make the role of a coach more important than it is. Rafa Nadal is the all time great, there is absolutely no proof Uncle Toni has anything to do with his abilities on the tennis court. Perhaps Rafa would have won more if he would have played with his right hand. Toni's contribution is pure speculation, for all I am concerned. It's nothing like managing a football team, where you actually do make decisions independently that have an impact on the outcome of a match.

What we do know is what Uncle Toni says in press conferences, and that usually self-serving, moronic nonsense.

no proof that Toni has anything to do with it? that just about generalize it doesn't it? players must be stupid, they pay so much money for someone who can't prove they even have an impact on the outcome of a match..... or anything to do with their abilities; surely you can prove that Lendl didn't help Murray out when Andy suddenly won 2 slams and Olympics, or your argument would be that Andy would've won 5 if Lendl didn't interfere!!

along these lines or your way of thinking, we can't prove that Rafa may or may not have already won 26 majors if Toni didn't get involved

Novak would've got 30 slams if Vadja didn't mess him up.......

now your football analogy is simply silly. Even in a tennis match, players work out strategies with their coaches and that already makes a difference. Now some argue that it's up to the tennis players who have to execute..... well likewise for football players!!

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: General tennis news

Gents, Kieran, that righty-lefty thing is a myth. Never happened. Just read page 30 of the book Rafa. Urban legend. Time to discard it. He was a kid, playing his forehand with two hands because he was weak, but as he got stronger, time came to get rid of the double hander and he did what came "natural" to him, and played with left hand. That's what he says.

 

[Moxie]

RE: General tennis news

Gents, Kieran, that righty-lefty thing is a myth. Never happened. Just read page 30 of the book Rafa. Urban legend. Time to discard it. He was a kid, playing his forehand with two hands because he was weak, but as he got stronger, time came to get rid of the double hander and he did what came "natural" to him, and played with left hand. That's what he says.

I've read the book, and I know what you mean. Kieran's insistence that it was all Toni isn't the whole story. There are subtleties in it, though. Toni saw that Rafa was a striker with his left foot, in football. He bribed him with more money to score goals with his right than with his left. In that way, he discovered Rafa was more powerful on his left side, even if he was more finely adept on on right. Yes, Rafael said is was natural to take the right hand off, but I'm not convinced that if Toni wasn't there to see that it was a smart choice, that it might have gone differently. Had he not had an uncle who had observed him closely all his life, why wouldn't a less in-tune coach have gone with the obvious…that Rafa was a right-hander?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

^But Rafa was not a pure right hander. He was ambidextrous. Did some things with the right side, others with the left. If he says playing lefty was what came natural to him, I will take his word for it. Also, if he says lefty feels more natural, but a coach insists" No, you are a righty and you should play with your right hand" that would be horrible coaching.

Of topic, but somewhat related, I work in a music store. Kids come to the store to pick up guitars. Even though I manage the percussion department, I help sometimes with guitars too because they have the most traffic. Anyways, when a family comes to pick the first guitar for little Timmy, parents are very sure about what Timmy's choice is going to be as far as the dominant hand is concerned. I tell them to hold on, give little Timmy a guitar, and look to see which way he is going to hold the guitar, which way will come natural to him. This is the first time he is holding one , so he does not know if he is a lefty he is supposed to hold it a certain way, or if he is a righty it is different. So many surprises I have seen ...Many lefties play righty guitars and visa versa. You force the kid to play the other way, you risk turning him off from music for life.

So, I give credit to Tony for going with what came natural to Rafa. The myth is that he turned a righty to a lefty to gain advantage. That did not happen.

 

[Kieran]

I'm gonna read that tomorrow, Murat, you say it's on page 30. I haven't read Rafa's bio, because I didn't want to buy it, and I think he should be writing it when he's retired, anyhow. But I'll look it over tomorrow.

I don't know about Rafa being ambidextrous, however. Watch this video...

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-01XvmcF6Ak[/video]

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

You will enjoy the book Kieran. Very candid, maybe too much for someone who is still actively playing but he had one of his best years ever after writing it, so I guess it did not hurt him much.

 

[Kieran]

You will enjoy the book Kieran. Very candid, maybe too much for someone who is still actively playing but he had one of his best years ever after writing it, so I guess it did not hurt him much.

Ah, I'm only gonna read page 30 tomorrow in Hodges & Figgis book shop... :laydownlaughing :snigger

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

You will enjoy the book Kieran. Very candid, maybe too much for someone who is still actively playing but he had one of his best years ever after writing it, so I guess it did not hurt him much.

Ah, I'm only gonna read page 30 tomorrow in Hodges & Figgis book shop... :laydownlaughing :snigger

Come on you cheap....:laydownlaughing
Buy the darn thing, you will love it. He will write another one when it is all said and done anyways, a sequel like...

 

[Kieran]

You will enjoy the book Kieran. Very candid, maybe too much for someone who is still actively playing but he had one of his best years ever after writing it, so I guess it did not hurt him much.

Ah, I'm only gonna read page 30 tomorrow in Hodges & Figgis book shop... :laydownlaughing :snigger

Come on you cheap....:laydownlaughing
Buy the darn thing, you will love it. He will write another one when it is all said and done anyways, a sequel like...

I'm gonna be like Mrs Columbo and get it from the library. :snigger

It's a very rare sports bio that's any use. Agassi's was the best one, in tennis, along with A Handful of Summers. Usually boxing biographies are much more interesting, maybe because boxing journalists excel at their craft. Sugar Ray Leonard's book was a very good read...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

A Handful of Summers was the best hands down. I read that book from time to time just cheer myself up.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, it's been years since I read it, but I loved that book. Was the sequel any good, Too Soon to Panic?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Yeah, it's been years since I read it, but I loved that book. Was the sequel any good, Too Soon to Panic?

I never read that one, couldn't bring myself to buy it . It felt like cheating. One day I will buy it though.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, it's been years since I read it, but I loved that book. Was the sequel any good, Too Soon to Panic?

I never read that one, couldn't bring myself to buy it . It felt like cheating. One day I will buy it though.

:lolz: :clap It's the same author! He'd thank you, trust me, he's getting old!

I'm gonna look that one up in the library too...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Yeah, it's been years since I read it, but I loved that book. Was the sequel any good, Too Soon to Panic?

I never read that one, couldn't bring myself to buy it . It felt like cheating. One day I will buy it though.

:lolz: :clap It's the same author! He'd thank you, trust me, he's getting old!

I'm gonna look that one up in the library too...

No I know it is Forbes brother, it felt like cheating in the same sense that it felt like cheating when the prequels to Star Wars came out, even though they were Lucas as well.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, it's been years since I read it, but I loved that book. Was the sequel any good, Too Soon to Panic?

I never read that one, couldn't bring myself to buy it . It felt like cheating. One day I will buy it though.

:lolz: :clap It's the same author! He'd thank you, trust me, he's getting old!

I'm gonna look that one up in the library too...

No I know it is Forbes brother, it felt like cheating in the same sense that it felt like cheating when the prequels to Star Wars came out, even though they were Lucas as well.

Speaking of which, why don't don't just drop it, eh? More Star Wars flicks? :s I don't care if they swing the light sabre lefty though they hold their fork righty, there just isn't that much to see any more... :nono

 

[Kieran]

I read that, Murat, it's on page 36, not page 30, took me ages to find it. :snigger

He says that Toni told him that he'd be better with one hand on the racket, and he left it up to Rafa, and Rafa went with the left hand, but that's essentially what I said: "He took a right-handed kid and brought him all the way through the ranks to be a lefty legend, and winner on all surfaces."

But Toni still was coaching him, and I believe, deserves a huge amount of credit for getting Rafa to where he is now. And Rafa isn't ambidextrous, as you can see from the video. He signs his name and brushes his teeth and pulls wedgies and all, with his right hand...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Oops, sorry for the page number...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Actually, I just checked the book again and I was right. Page 30 and 31 in this edition. Maybe different versions.