Tennis.com's "50 Greatest Players of Open Era" - who are your top 25?

El Dude

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There is no discernible logic to your ordering. I have already pointed out some obvious flaws. I'm not sure what else you need from me.

I don’t need anything from you, it is just that you use loaded phrases like “obvious flaws” without backing it up whatsoever. They aren’t “obvious flaws” except in your own mind - unless you can make a compelling argument beyond “because I say so.”

Now I agree that there’s an argument for Muster or Rafter over Roddick and Chang, but that it is a debatable issue - not an “obvious flaw.”
 

Ricardo

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Muster over Chang? Who actually thinks that? Chang was for years challenging for top spot, while Muster had one good clay season and nothing else even close to Chang to show for.
 

Federberg

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I don’t need anything from you, it is just that you use loaded phrases like “obvious flaws” without backing it up whatsoever. They aren’t “obvious flaws” except in your own mind - unless you can make a compelling argument beyond “because I say so.”

Now I agree that there’s an argument for Muster or Rafter over Roddick and Chang, but that it is a debatable issue - not an “obvious flaw.”

That's your opinion. We clearly differ. You say Open era but then put players in who's achievements in the Open era make their positioning questionable. In any case, putting McEnroe over Connors damages the credibility of your list to me. Would also love to hear how on earth Chang can be considered a greater player than a guy who won more titles than him. Matched him in slams. Was actually number 1. Perhaps if you explain your reasoning your list would look less arbitrary.
 

Federberg

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Muster over Chang? Who actually thinks that? Chang was for years challenging for top spot, while Muster had one good clay season and nothing else even close to Chang to show for.

he wasn't just a one season wonder mate. He was far more than that. It's just that clay might be less sexy to some folks. I'm not going to discount his achievements because it was primarily on clay. If I do that, I'll have to re-assess the guy who's second on the list, and you know what trouble that would cause
 

Ricardo

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he wasn't just a one season wonder mate. He was far more than that. It's just that clay might be less sexy to some folks. I'm not going to discount his achievements because it was primarily on clay. If I do that, I'll have to re-assess the guy who's second on the list, and you know what trouble that would cause
Chang’s best result also came on clay so don’t play the clay bias game. Show me other things he did that was better than Chang’s.
 

Federberg

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Chang’s best result also came on clay so don’t play the clay bias game. Show me other things he did that was better than Chang’s.
One of the longest streaks on clay for a start. 11 tournament wins in one year for another. An actual number 1 ranked player. Won more titles than Chang. If the standard is that a player spent more time ranked 2 in the world where does it end? Do we then say Tsonga is a greater player than Yannick Noah? Or Berdych is greater than Johanssen. Personally I prefer to look at all the measures of greatness separately. It’s cleaner and less susceptible to bias. Again.... just my opinion. You’re welcome to yours
 
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El Dude

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That's your opinion. We clearly differ. You say Open era but then put players in who's achievements in the Open era make their positioning questionable. In any case, putting McEnroe over Connors damages the credibility of your list to me. Would also love to hear how on earth Chang can be considered a greater player than a guy who won more titles than him. Matched him in slams. Was actually number 1. Perhaps if you explain your reasoning your list would look less arbitrary.

To address each in turn.

Open Era - This primarily effects Laver and Rosewall, but also Newcombe and Ashe, all four of whom are "tweeners." There are two ways to do this; either look only at Open Era results or look at their entire careers. I choose the latter, because I simply don't think it is fair to those four to only look at their Open Era results because it doesn't accurately depict their overall greatness. But this is a personal choice. If I were to rank them on Open Era results alone, obviously I would rank them differently.

McEnroe vs. Connors. There are several troubling areas in ranking this list and one was in what order to rank Mac, Connors, and Lendl. I think Lendl tends to be underrated historically, that he had a similar peak to Mac (if never a year as great as Mac's 1984), but with a longer prime and thus gets the edge. As for Connors, he has slowly gone down in my estimation the more I look at his career in detail. A great player, no doubt, but some of his year YE1s are questionable - for instance, Vilas should have been #1 in 1977 and probably Borg in 1978; I think you can make an argument for Ashe in 1975. Furthermore, a ton of Jimmy's titles are really low level stuff. But in the end, it could go either way.

Chang vs. Muster. The fact that you and Ricardo are debating it out supports my view it isn't an "obvious flaw." Again, my point is not that you are incorrect, but that you are being just a tad hyperbolic. Chang and Muster are pretty damn close, and it really depends upon how you want to weigh things.
 

Federberg

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To address each in turn.

Open Era - This primarily effects Laver and Rosewall, but also Newcombe and Ashe, all four of whom are "tweeners." There are two ways to do this; either look only at Open Era results or look at their entire careers. I choose the latter, because I simply don't think it is fair to those four to only look at their Open Era results because it doesn't accurately depict their overall greatness. But this is a personal choice. If I were to rank them on Open Era results alone, obviously I would rank them differently.

McEnroe vs. Connors. There are several troubling areas in ranking this list and one was in what order to rank Mac, Connors, and Lendl. I think Lendl tends to be underrated historically, that he had a similar peak to Mac (if never a year as great as Mac's 1984), but with a longer prime and thus gets the edge. As for Connors, he has slowly gone down in my estimation the more I look at his career in detail. A great player, no doubt, but some of his year YE1s are questionable - for instance, Vilas should have been #1 in 1977 and probably Borg in 1978; I think you can make an argument for Ashe in 1975. Furthermore, a ton of Jimmy's titles are really low level stuff. But in the end, it could go either way.

Chang vs. Muster. The fact that you and Ricardo are debating it out supports my view it isn't an "obvious flaw." Again, my point is not that you are incorrect, but that you are being just a tad hyperbolic. Chang and Muster are pretty damn close, and it really depends upon how you want to weigh things.

Hyperbolic because I see flaws in your list? You do love the drama. Anyway your opinion. You can reassess Connors however much you want, he achieved more than Mac, dominated as much, was there at the top for waaaay longer. Didn’t like the guy. Only Edberg and Federer are comparable to how I felt about him, and I still wouldn’t put him above Jimmy with a clear conscience. That’s just me
 

El Dude

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Hyperbolic because I see flaws in your list? You do love the drama. Anyway your opinion. You can reassess Connors however much you want, he achieved more than Mac, dominated as much, was there at the top for waaaay longer. Didn’t like the guy. Only Edberg and Federer are comparable to how I felt about him, and I still wouldn’t put him above Jimmy with a clear conscience. That’s just me

Hyperbolic because you use phrases like “obvious flaws,” when they are clearly debatable. It isn’t drama - unless it is to you - I’m just pointing out the problem with your phrasing.

In other words, if the flaws were so obvious, they would be easy to support and find consensus on. If they are debatable, then they aren’t so obvious.
 

Federberg

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Putting. Mac above Connors is an obvious flaw. Putting a diminutive guy who was there or thereabouts for years above a guy who touched the stars and has more lasting achievements is not an acknowledgement of greatness, just a recognition of quality. There are other flaws that are obvious. But as usual you’re so defensive you probably haven’t once reviewed your own list. It seems it’s more of an exercise in showcasing your intellect than an appreciation of tennis. Anyway I’ve said my bit
 

Moxie

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Putting. Mac above Connors is an obvious flaw. Putting a diminutive guy who was there or thereabouts for years above a guy who touched the stars and has more lasting achievements is not an acknowledgement of greatness, just a recognition of quality. There are other flaws that are obvious. But as usual you’re so defensive you probably haven’t once reviewed your own list. It seems it’s more of an exercise in showcasing your intellect than an appreciation of tennis. Anyway I’ve said my bit
Crikey, he put McEnroe one place over Connors, and both top 10. It's all judgement call, not moral failing. I actually saw both of those guys play in person, and I think McEnroe was the finer player. As a tennis player, Connors was boxer, even if a really good one. And they were both fairly "diminutive." (Connors 5'10 to McEnroe's 5'11, listed.)
 

Federberg

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Crikey, he put McEnroe one place over Connors, and both top 10. It's all judgement call, not moral failing. I actually saw both of those guys play in person, and I think McEnroe was the finer player. As a tennis player, Connors was boxer, even if a really good one. And they were both fairly "diminutive." (Connors 5'10 to McEnroe's 5'11, listed.)

Lol! Here comes momma Moxie to protect her baby Dude again. Read my post I said it’s all about opinions. I saw both of them play too, do I get a medal for that? I think Mac was a genius too, he was my Federer before Federer. As usual you missed the boat on what I was saying, the diminutive guy I made reference to was Chang it should have been obvious from the comparison I was making that I wasn’t talking about Connors. That would have meant arguing against my own point :facepalm:

Anyway.. this thread is getting boring now and was always puerile
 

Moxie

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You saw both of them play, too? Wow, I thought I was the only one around here besides Fiero that was older than dirt. I did note that you agree that it's all opinion. That's why I don't see that you argue so much. Let's face it...you do take after El Dude. It's just an exercise to inspire conversation. Anyway, I saw Jimmy in DC at the Open, on clay, probably '75. And I saw JMac in college, when he was 18, the one year he played for Stanford, at my university, '77-78. We went because everyone said, "You've gotta see this guy play!" Indeed. He turned pro the next year.
 
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Federberg

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You saw both of them play, too? Wow, I thought I was the only one around here besides Fiero that was older than dirt. I did note that you agree that it's all opinion. That's why I don't see that you argue so much. Let's face it...you do take after El Dude. It's just an exercise to inspire conversation. Anyway, I saw Jimmy in DC at the Open, on clay, probably '75. And I saw JMac in college, when he was 18, the one year he played for Stanford, at my university, '77-78. We went because everyone said, "You've gotta see this guy play!" Indeed. He turned pro the next year.

Lol! they were both around in the 80s. If that makes me older than dirt then so be it :) I played tennis in my teens, and some of us were taken to Wimbledon each year to watch the championships.

I don't see why you feel the need to protect your boy, so I guess we're both a bit clueless :D I assume you mean "go after" not "take after"? You and he might think that, but I'm fairly consistent. If he says something I agree with, I'll make it known strongly. If I don't agree, the same. It's not personal in either case. It's about the way views/ facts expressed. But even you know he's super defensive and can't handle folks disagreeing with his stuff. You pay him no respect by trying to be his bodyguard by the way
 

DarthFed

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Since I started watching in the 90's it'd be stupid for me to attempt a long list like this and I can see the difficulties in placing Laver and Rosewall. Also Nole vs. Sampras is an interesting one. That was a debate two years ago and the general consensus was that it was close to call but who cares as Nole was a lock to pass him up soon. Now that doesn't seem to be a given!

I'd argue Stan and Safin over Chang. I know Chang was more consistent but Stan has the two extra majors, Safin has one more than Chang and was also number one for a short stint while Chang reached #2 (Stan's high so far is #3).
 
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Federberg

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Since I started watching in the 90's it'd be stupid for me to attempt a long list like this

This...
I'm with you buddy. I'll go with my lying eyes every time. Over a fucking spreadsheet :banghead:
 

El Dude

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I always have to laugh when Federberg calls other people defensive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mrzz

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Memo to all fellow posters trying not to prolong a war: next time you see that perfect opportunity to make that clever snarky comment, for once just let it pass. You probably have said it in different words a thousand times already (or even maybe with almost the same words).
 
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El Dude

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I agree @mrzz, but constantly being attacked and insulted by a certain poster in a large percentage of threads gets tiresome. My snarky comments always come after all of that. Maybe I should just ignore that certain poster.
 
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Nekro

I agree @mrzz, but constantly being attacked and insulted by a certain poster in a large percentage of threads gets tiresome. My snarky comments always come after all of that. Maybe I should just ignore that certain poster.
man, i told u that weeks ago...

Until he's made peace with his sexual orientation he will be an asshole like this....

The reason he's picking on you is that you're a friendly and nice guy, someone Federberg would like for boyfriend so he's now trying to exercise his homo dominator powers on you, kinda like this:

halford_whip.jpg

rob_halford_by_overthetop92.jpg


An alternative to ignoring him is saying something really rude or anti-semitic.... That will make you less desirable and will turn him off :p
 
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