Tennis.com's "50 Greatest Players of Open Era" - who are your top 25?

Federberg

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11. Andre Agassi
12. Boris Becker
13. Stefan Edberg
14. John Newcombe
15. Mats Wilander

was Dude's order...

I think Agassi has a bit of separation...the rest is a bit of a wash... I think you can make a decent argument on placings for the next 4. I like Newcombe in there, to be honest. I think he gets overlooked a lot, he followed some great Aussies and can get lost in the conversation.

it get's a bit murky for me. Not sure I can have Becker above Edberg for example. How many titles overcomes weeks at #1? How many generic titles overcomes a major? etc etc etc
 

britbox

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Personally I'd swap Edberg and Becker and Wilander and Newcombe.

11. Agassi
12. Edberg
13. Becker
14. Wilander
15. Newcombe

On nadal goat's post, I'd be struggling to make a case for Wilander > Agassi... The only case for Wilander > Edberg is slam count. and it's one slam... Edberg 72 weeks at #1 to Wilander's #20, 42 titles to 33... nah, Edberg should be higher than Mats... but it's close.
 

Federberg

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Personally I'd swap Edberg and Becker and Wilander and Newcombe.

11. Agassi
12. Edberg
13. Becker
14. Wilander
15. Newcombe

On nadal goat's post, I'd be struggling to make a case for Wilander > Agassi... The only case for Wilander > Edberg is slam count. and it's one slam... Edberg 72 weeks at #1 to Wilander's #20, 42 titles to 33... nah, Edberg should be higher than Mats... but it's close.

yes agreed it's closer to what you posted for me as well. But I would far rather just look at separate lists. I just don't see any unifying theory that is fair
 

mrzz

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The point is... all this talk about should player A who's won 8 slams be rated more great than player B who's won the same number of slams but has won at least one of each, is a recent construct. It's ultimately meaningless in my view. Each slam is as valuable as the other. Personally I place a higher value on players who are able to win a ton of the same slam consecutively. That's DOMINANCE. So the idea that Laver can be put above Rafa is an utter joke to me. That's the difference between being hot in one season versus being great, truly great over a career

Laver won big titles from 1960 to 1972 and was clearly the best player in a lot of those years. This is also dominance across time. I do not see how that argument can separate Nadal from him. The only solid argument career wise that can separate both is competition, as we discussed multiple times, and as I said above, given that Laver in his was still competitive against the best players when he was above 35 well inside the 70's, show that he is more than just the best of the few lucky ones who played back in the day. You could say that about a guy who played on the 1930's, but nobody says that about a guy like Borg, for example, against who Laver has a decent record despite being 18 years older. Actually, as he kept up in a changing environment, he is the definition of a someone great over the whole career.
 
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britbox

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Well might have got first list a little wrong So here's my new one. Top 15 of all time. 1.Rafael Nadal. 2.Roger Federer. 3.Rod laver. 4.Pete Sampras. 5.Novak Djokovic. 6.John McEnroe. 7.Agassi. 8.ken rosewell. 9. Boris Becker. 10.Edberg . 11.Roy Emerson . 12.Don' budge. 13.Bjorn Borg. 14. Fred Pery. 15. Andy Murray
You might want to do a bit of research on Borg, Connors, Lendl, Open era...
 

Federberg

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Laver won big titles from 1960 to 1972 and was clearly the best player in a lot of those years. This is also dominance across time. I do not see how that argument can separate Nadal from him. The only solid argument career wise that can separate both is competition, as we discussed multiple times, and as I said above, given that Laver in his was still competitive against the best players when he was above 35 well inside the 70's, show that he is more than just the best of the few lucky ones who played back in the day. You could say that about a guy who played on the 1930's, but nobody says that about a guy like Borg, for example, against who Laver has a decent record despite being 18 years older. Actually, as he kept up in a changing environment, he is the definition of a someone great over the whole career.

1960 to 1972? You're primarily talking about the pro tour mate. Either this is about the Open Era or it's not. You can't pick and choose. Otherwise why not include all his titles, and so called pro slams. As I said you can't allow Laver to have his cake and eat it in my view.
 

Federberg

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You might want to do a bit of research on Borg, Connors, Lendl, Open era...

Lol! Why would you even bother responding to this mate? Any list that has Rafa at the top is just a joke. I have the greatest respect for his achievements but no rational person can put him above Federer
 

britbox

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Lol! Why would you even bother responding to this mate? Any list that has Rafa at the top is just a joke. I have the greatest respect for his achievements but no rational person can put him above Federer

Ranking Fred Perry in Open Era Tennis kind of raised the alarm...
 

mrzz

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1960 to 1972? You're primarily talking about the pro tour mate. Either this is about the Open Era or it's not. You can't pick and choose. Otherwise why not include all his titles, and so called pro slams. As I said you can't allow Laver to have his cake and eat it in my view.
Wasnt talking just about open era... In that sense I stated above that i would put a few above Laver

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britbox

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1960 to 1972? You're primarily talking about the pro tour mate. Either this is about the Open Era or it's not. You can't pick and choose. Otherwise why not include all his titles, and so called pro slams. As I said you can't allow Laver to have his cake and eat it in my view.

Bizarre thing that tennis.com did was specify that only players who played the Open Era would be assessed... but those who spanned into the pre-Open era would be assessed on not just only Open Era tennis, but their entire careers.... which is why we have pygmy majors being given full slam status. Some of Laver's pro slams were against 8 man fields... it's simply not comparable in any way to a modern major.

Having said that, Laver was an exceptional player and it's not his fault the way things were structured...
 

britbox

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No I know Got my list wrong, Borg lendl, Connors Should be higher I just have got around to it.

Don't worry about it. Sports Forums are brutal. Most of us have gone through apprenticeships in learning stuff, formulating arguments... and getting shredded from time to time.
 

Federberg

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Wasnt talking just about open era... In that sense I stated above that i would put a few above Laver

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Then I'm not sure we disagree about much. Of course Laver should be in the list, but his ranking seems for emeritus than real to me
 
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Federberg

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Don't worry about it. Sports Forums are brutal. Most of us have gone through apprenticeships in learning stuff, formulating arguments... and getting shredded from time to time.
lol! Indeed. It's character forming
 
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Andy22

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My new list Top 15 players of the open era. 1. Roger federer. 2. Rafael nadal . 3. Rod laver. 4. Djokovic . 5. Sampras . 6. Bjorn Borg. 7. Ken Rosewall . 8. Agassi. 9. John McEnroe. 10. Lendl . 11. Wilander . 12. Connors. 13. Becker . 14. Edberg. 15. Newcombe . . . .
 
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Horsa

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which is why a list like this really just comes down to personal preference. There is no definitive measure that captures everything. I rather prefer hard data. Who's the best server, who's the best grass court player, who's won the most titles etc Multiple lists, with everyone free to choose what is more important to them. I for one do not think it makes sense to be so slam-centric because you should only judge players by the focus of their ambitions. If players of the past weren't so preoccupied with winning slams why should they be downgraded for it? Lendl decided not to play RG one year because he was consumed with winning Wimbledon. It was shocking because he was the run away favourite to win RG. Can you imagine something like that now? The world has changed. It makes far more sense, if one insists on cross-era comparisons to look at the things which have been consistent throughout time, and in the Open era there are few of those things. Being the number 1 ranked player is one of them, but somehow this seems to be almost an after thought in this particular exercise. Look at Edberg and Becker for example. Becker dominated the H2H, but Edberg won as many slams as him, was number 1 ranked for longer, was in more slam finals than him. Who's the greater player? Personally I would go with Edberg because he dominated the field more, that's my personal taste.

What I'm trying to say is that agreeing or disagreeing with what others think is almost irrelevant (unless someone presumes to have a definitive list), it's all about personal taste

And by the way, a player who has actually managed to get to #1 is automatically elevated vs someone else who hasn't done that but won the same number of slams, in my view. They've done the ultimate thing in sports, be the best of the best
I'm very sorry to interrupt you but I'd have to agree.
 

El Dude

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Roy Emerson was greater than Bjorn Borg...I've seen it all.
 

El Dude

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Hey @mrzz, I've argued a case in favour of Laver being up there too in the past... and he should be up there... but I'm very wary of basing it on a hypothetical slam count...

Laver's pro slams do not equate to a modern-day major and neither do his pre-open era amateur slams. I guess my argument is that not all slams are equal when comparing across eras... but as in being a great player, sure Laver is up there. I'm now thinking Rafa should be above him.

I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that. This is why I argue that we need to compare contextual dominance - that is, how dominant a player was in the context he played. In fact, I would say that is the only thing we can compare, if we're going to compare across eras.