Stacey Allaster proposed changes to excessive grunting in the WTA

[MashaFan]

Well you are entitled to your opinion,just as other fans are entitled to theirs on this subject.
I for one welcome the new proposed changes as outlined by Stacey Allaster,it also has to begin in the junior ranks.

I haven't said anything about people who dislike shrieking - All I'm saying is that their arguments and accusations why they dislike shrieking are without substance - They have no ground for them - They can dislike as much as they like - that's their prerogative but do they really have to constantly post comments about hindrance and cheating like they care about the other players? - It has been 10 years already for God sake - The players haven't protested - so why these whiners? - I tell you why - Most of them can't stand that Maria Sharapova has been a tennis star with millions of fans for 10 years now - that's why

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

It is quite normal for any fan to stick up for their favorite player,in your case it is Maria Sharapova.
At the end of the day we are all tennis fans in general may I add,of course there are many fans who dont tolerate excessive noise in players,that is also their right to voice their opinions.
I happend to be a big fan of Monica Seles by the way,but I will tell you right now,I could not stand the excessive noise she made.

 

[tented]

This is taken directly from the Official WTA Rulebook:

"Any continual distraction of regular play, such as grunting, shall be dealt with in accordance with the Hindrance Rule.

Deliberate Hindrance: Any hindrance caused by a player that is ruled deliberate will result in the loss of a point."

So they do consider grunting a hindrance. Let's get that matter settled immediately.

What Maria, Azarenka, Venus, Serena, and others do definitely occasionally crosses the line into hindrance. The key word there was "occasionally"; I'm not making the case that every single utterance is a hindrance. But when the grunting/screaming/shrieking continues for so long that the opponent can't hear the ball's contact and behavior properly, it's a hindrance.

As for fans, yes, it's clearly a problem, otherwise there wouldn't be any discussion. And while players as popular as Serena and Maria attract large audiences, there's no doubt they could attract even larger ones if they didn't grunt/scream/shriek.

 

[MashaFan]

It is quite normal for any fan to stick up for their favorite player,in your case it is Maria Sharapova.
At the end of the day we are all tennis fans in general may I add,of course there are many fans who dont tolerate excessive noise in players,that is also their right to voice their opinions.
I happend to be a big fan of Monica Seles by the way,but I will tell you right now,I could not stand the excessive noise she made.

People have "voiced their opinion" for 10 years now - In every thread which concerns Masha you can be sure that the same old always "voice their opinion" often in a dismissing tone - After 10 years with Maria Sharapova and other shriekers one should expect that the issue has been voiced enough by now

In this case I don't argue because I'm a Masha fan but because the whole discussion about hindrance and cheating is ridiculous - I have proven that it is and presented all the counter arguments based on facts against the various statements and accusation in a previous thread

You still don't hear me - I don't argue against people who say that they don't like the shrieking - it's their prerogative - I argue against all the reasons these people bring forward as arguments why they dislike shrieking which is a completely other thing

 

[Calvy]

[ote='MashaFan' pid='156558' dateline='1422050593']

The issue is, does it bother the other players?

If the opponents of those that "shriek" at high decibels or grunt loudly, then this whole debate is mute.

That being said, I do recall at the French Open, during the Azarenka/Sharapova match, the commentators mentioning you could hear them both outside of the stadium at times. Now that is unacceptable. Also, if a "shriek" extends up to the opponent hitting the ball, that should qualify as a hinderance.

...but, again, until the other players complain, nothing will truly be accomplished.

IF it had bothered the majority of the WTA players (of which most of them are quiet players) then they would have protested through their players union 10 years ago - so tell me - Have you read any article about such protesting players?

Commentators are usually old (male) farts who've been brought up with a "gentlemen sport" - Their opinion is highly biased especially when they comment women's matches
[/quote]

Did you read what I wrote, or are you being combative just for the sake of it.

I stated that unless their opponents complain, it's a mute issue, no?!

...and, to answer your question about player complaints, Radwanska was questioned about the levels of shrieking, and she stated Sharapova was the worst. Granted she stated that Azarenka wasn't so bad which brings her complaint about Sharapova into question.

I do agree, the debate regarding "grunting" is very sexist, as you don't hear the same commentary regarding the male player, even though players such as Ferrer, Nadal, Djokovic and several others on occasion grunt quite loudly.

 

[tented]

In this case I don't argue because I'm a Masha fan but because the whole discussion about hindrance and cheating is ridiculous - I have proven that it is and presented all the counter arguments based on facts against the various statements and accusation in a previous thread

Since you're so into facts, why don't you address the fact that I cited the WTA does, in fact, refer to grunting as a hindrance in their official rulebook?

 

[MashaFan]

This is taken directly from the Official WTA Rulebook:

"Any continual distraction of regular play, such as grunting, shall be dealt with in accordance with the Hindrance Rule.

Deliberate Hindrance: Any hindrance caused by a player that is ruled deliberate will result in the loss of a point."

So they do consider grunting a hindrance. Let's get that matter settled immediately.

What Maria, Azarenka, Venus, Serena, and others do definitely occasionally crosses the line into hindrance. The key word there was "occasionally"; I'm not making the case that every single utterance is a hindrance. But when the grunting/screaming/shrieking continues for so long that the opponent can't hear the ball's contact and behavior properly, it's a hindrance.

As for fans, yes, it's clearly a problem, otherwise there wouldn't be any discussion. And while players as popular as Serena and Maria attract large audiences, there's no doubt they could attract even larger ones if they didn't grunt/scream/shriek.

The keywords here are Any continual distraction of regular play
Since umpires (and other officials) during these 10 years haven't considered the shrieking - screaming - grunting of Maria Sharapova and her likes as continual distractions - logic tells me that you're in the wrong or do you wanna argue that you know more or interpret the rules better than the umpires (and Allaster)? - Also - if your statement was true then no special measurements had been necessary in the future and the issue would have been addressed 10 years ago

Hearing the ball is no given right and there is no rule which gives a player such right - As far as I know Martina is the only one who's brought forward that ridiculous argument which then has been echoed by many as a valid argument

For some fans it clearly is a problem - which I haven't denied - or are you talking for all the tennis fans and supporters?

You don't know that - it's pure speculation

 

[MashaFan]

Did you read what I wrote, or are you being combative just for the sake of it.

I stated that unless their opponents complain, it's a mute issue, no?!

...and, to answer your question about player complaints, Radwanska was questioned about the levels of shrieking, and she stated Sharapova was the worst. Granted she stated that Azarenka wasn't so bad which brings her complaint about Sharapova into question.

I do agree, the debate regarding "grunting" is very sexist, as you don't hear the same commentary regarding the male player, even though players such as Ferrer, Nadal, Djokovic and several others on occasion grunt quite loudly.

Yes - as long as their opponents don't complain it is a mute issue - All I'm saying is that their opponents and their coaches haven't protested against it through official channels during these nearly 10 years which makes you wonder why? - Surely they would have used any legal means to get some advantage against shrieking (top)players?

As for Radwanska - *shrug* - Had she not left for Polen already?

 

[10isfan]

The yahoo article saying screaming to be phased out in 20 years is a joke. Why twenty years? If points were deducted for screams, players would stop overnight. When does Allister step down? We need someone brave in her role.

If nothing will be done about it, they should just come out and say that instead of this pointless, protracted discussion, which is as infuriating as the screams.

 

[10isfan]

Tented, great find!!! We all must now admit that screaming on every shot is a hindrance. Allister wants to keep this a big secret. Is there a way to get players to complain to the ump so that points get deducted? There should be someone smart enough to do that. I certainly would, knowing it would give me an advantage against a screamer.

 

[tented]

The yahoo article saying screaming to be phased out in 20 years is a joke. Why twenty years? If points were deducted for screams, players would stop overnight. When does Allister step down? We need someone brave in her role.

If nothing will be done about it, they should just come out and say that instead of this pointless, protracted discussion, which is as infuriating as the screams.

Tented, great find!!! We all must now admit that screaming on every shot is a hindrance. Allister wants to keep this a big secret. Is there a way to get players to complain to the ump so that points get deducted? There should be someone smart enough to do that. I certainly would, knowing it would give me an advantage against a screamer.

Yes, it's clear Allaster is part of the problem, not the solution. It's like I've said about chair umpires during Nadal and Djokovic matches, who don't properly enforce the time rule: if they're too scared to give these top players warnings/time violations/deduct points, etc., then get rid of them, and put people in there who aren't afraid.

The rules exist for a reason, and it's not to be ignored and/or not enforced. If Allaster is too worried about offending certain players, then get rid of her, and put someone in place who has the courage to take action.

As I've also said about the time violations on the men's side, the same applies to the WTA's excessive grunters: start deducting points, and they'll turn their behavior around quickly. It wouldn't take 10 years to get Maria to stop shrieking if the chair umpires enforced the hindrance rule.

 

[Kirijax]

The yahoo article saying screaming to be phased out in 20 years is a joke. Why twenty years? If points were deducted for screams, players would stop overnight. When does Allister step down? We need someone brave in her role.

If nothing will be done about it, they should just come out and say that instead of this pointless, protracted discussion, which is as infuriating as the screams.

Tented, great find!!! We all must now admit that screaming on every shot is a hindrance. Allister wants to keep this a big secret. Is there a way to get players to complain to the ump so that points get deducted? There should be someone smart enough to do that. I certainly would, knowing it would give me an advantage against a screamer.

Yes, it's clear Allaster is part of the problem, not the solution. It's like I've said about chair umpires during Nadal and Djokovic matches, who don't properly enforce the time rule: if they're too scared to give these top players warnings/time violations/deduct points, etc., then get rid of them, and put people in there who aren't afraid.

The rules exist for a reason, and it's not to be ignored and/or not enforced. If Allaster is too worried about offending certain players, then get rid of her, and put someone in place who has the courage to take action.

As I've also said about the time violations on the men's side, the same applies to the WTA's excessive grunters: start deducting points, and they'll turn their behavior around quickly. It wouldn't take 10 years to get Maria to stop shrieking if the chair umpires enforced the hindrance rule.

Completely agree. These people at the top need to stop being afraid of the top players and enforce the rules no matter who is playing. This problem will not go away. It needs to be addressed. Homer fans can claim it's not an issue until they are frothing at the mouth, but what's wrong is wrong.

 

[MashaFan]

Yes, it's clear Allaster is part of the problem, not the solution. It's like I've said about chair umpires during Nadal and Djokovic matches, who don't properly enforce the time rule: if they're too scared to give these top players warnings/time violations/deduct points, etc., then get rid of them, and put people in there who aren't afraid.

The rules exist for a reason, and it's not to be ignored and/or not enforced. If Allaster is too worried about offending certain players, then get rid of her, and put someone in place who has the courage to take action.

As I've also said about the time violations on the men's side, the same applies to the WTA's excessive grunters: start deducting points, and they'll turn their behavior around quickly. It wouldn't take 10 years to get Maria to stop shrieking if the chair umpires enforced the hindrance rule.

And yet - after he has encouraged me to reply him - which I did - tented avoids to give some counter arguments or valid explanations to my facts:

Q: Why have the umpires and the WTA officials - not to speak about the players and their coaches - ignored the rule which tented quotes in spite of the fact that this issue has been loudly debated in the more than 10 years since this issue has been on the table? - This can not be a "Allaster problem" only

Q: Why must there be taken measurements in the future when there - according to tented - already exists a rule which states that it is hindrance and all it needs is to be enforced?

My answer to these questions is that tented interpret the rules in his own prejudice way which is not the way the umpires - the WTA officials and the players (including their coaches) interpret them - Why have not even one of them openly referred to this rule in press conferences and such during these 10 years?

Therefor the next question is - do we really believe that tented interpret the rules better than the professionals mentioned above? - Are the umpires - WTA officials - players (+ coaches) and commentators just plain stupid while tented is the the better rule interpreter? - No offense but I find that highly doubtful

 

[tented]

Yes, it's clear Allaster is part of the problem, not the solution. It's like I've said about chair umpires during Nadal and Djokovic matches, who don't properly enforce the time rule: if they're too scared to give these top players warnings/time violations/deduct points, etc., then get rid of them, and put people in there who aren't afraid.

The rules exist for a reason, and it's not to be ignored and/or not enforced. If Allaster is too worried about offending certain players, then get rid of her, and put someone in place who has the courage to take action.

As I've also said about the time violations on the men's side, the same applies to the WTA's excessive grunters: start deducting points, and they'll turn their behavior around quickly. It wouldn't take 10 years to get Maria to stop shrieking if the chair umpires enforced the hindrance rule.

And yet - after he has encouraged me to reply him - which I did - tented avoids to give some counter arguments or valid explanations to my facts:

Q: Why have the umpires and the WTA officials - not to speak about the players and their coaches - ignored the rule which tented quotes in spite of the fact that this issue has been loudly debated in the more than 10 years since this issue has been on the table? - This can not be a "Allaster problem" only

Q: Why must there be taken measurements in the future when there - according to tented - already exists a rule which states that it is hindrance and all it needs is to be enforced?

My answer to these questions is that tented interpret the rules in his own prejudice way which is not the way the umpires - the WTA officials and the players (including their coaches) interpret them - Why have not even one of them openly referred to this rule in press conferences and such during these 10 years?

Therefor the next question is - do we really believe that tented interpret the rules better than the professionals mentioned above? - Are the umpires - WTA officials - players (+ coaches) and commentators just plain stupid while tented is the the better rule interpreter? - No offense but I find that highly doubtful

There are so many logical fallacies in here it's hard to know where to begin ...

There are many rules/laws, in many different sports and other areas, which are rarely, if ever, enforced. The hindrance rule is just one example. Just because a rule is rarely enforced doesn't mean it shouldn't be. (And no one, including myself, made any such claim to it being an "Allaster problem" only. That's an invention of yours.)

There need to be steps taken in the future, because none are being taken now. That should be quite clear.

As for your final paragraph, WTA officials clearly agree with me, otherwise they wouldn't have included grunting as an example of hindrance. In fact, it's the ONLY example. :laydownlaughing And commentators? Are you kidding? They can't stop talking about it.

 

[faradubii]

A little question for MashaFan: Do you really like Maria's shrieks? Wouldn't you prefer her to be more silent, and having just a normal effort grunting coming out? I'm just curious.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I have never been a fan of excessive noise coming from players period male or female. Serena does it, and I would prefer she find a way to channel that energy into her game rather than her emotions. The thing that frustrates me about Maria is the shriek has become more pronounced, elongated and prolonged through out the match especially when things are not going her way. Serena is the same way she gets more vocal when things aren't going her way, but not at Sharapova like levels.

 

[tented]

I have never been a fan of excessive noise coming from players period male or female. Serena does it, and I would prefer she find a way to channel that energy into her game rather than her emotions. The thing that frustrates me about Maria is the shriek has become more pronounced, elongated and prolonged through out the match especially when things are not going her way. Serena is the same way she gets more vocal when things aren't going her way, but not at Sharapova like levels.

Great post.

And let me add that I feel the same about the men, so I'm not being sexist, and limiting this to the women. There are a number of men whose grunting can be annoying, too.

 

[Kirijax]

The thing that amazes me about Sharapova is that she is able to act all coy and demure and standoffish after screaming her head off for 2 and a half hours like a demented porn queen who wasn't paid. Now that takes talent.

 

[Vince Evert]

Invent a grunts and screeching meter and if the decibel level exceeds it, players will be penalized.

 

[10isfan]

Invent a grunts and screeching meter and if the decibel level exceeds it, players will be penalized.

No need to invent anything. There are devices that could serve this function. Allister et al are choosing nit to use them