Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game

Kieran

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Yeah, that's the beauty and terror of the World Cup: if the team doesn't ignite they go home. Even when they do ignite, it's often not enough. Italy in 1982 was a great team - but you wouldn't know it until they beat Brazil. Sometimes that happens, a side looks ordinary and then they sweep all before them.

In 1990, oppositely, West Germany looked great at the start and then played dreary conservative football and won the thing by a penalty in a final that was a lousy excuse for the Beautiful Game.

It's true about Spain too, their superiority was based upon how well they keep control of games, without ever really flattening the opposition. Holland that year were kind of like the Brazil side in 1974: a perfect repudiation of their own footballing principles, with a huge dollop of thuggery and cynicism thrown in. It wouldn't have been an injustice had Holland been down to 9 men by half-time in the final, and I think the ref was very lenient, maybe too aware of the occasion to feel he should "ruin it" by waving the red card. But Holland had no such qualms and were easily the antidote or evil twin to their great sides of the past.

And yet Spain struggled to overcome them.

One thing about the more romantic failures at the World Cup - they all lost against great sides (Germany in 1954 and 1974, Italy in 1982), but the teams who won were much more practical and grounded in solid defensive fundamentals. The aesthetic beauty in sports sometimes isn't enough, when faced by pragmatic and stubborn opposition.

A bit like tennis, but without the knees... :snigger
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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Ronaldinho couldn't cope with the pressure..it was his time to be 'the man' and he shrank away from it..a fat Ronaldo and an out of position kaka compounded the problems..

brazil tried to fit 2 playmakers into one team, kaka was out of position and ineffective and Ronaldinho spent the 2006 wc hiding.

and Ronaldo really was fat.
 

britbox

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The main difference for me between the 82 and 06 Brazil teams wasn't so much the quality of the players - it was the way they played. I agree that there is a tendency to romanticise a little on the distant past, but I felt the same way at the 86 world cup about the 82 Brazil team and was hugely disappointed with Brazil in that tournament - largely because I had been totally mesmorized by the team four years earlier.

I'm generally in the "no points for second place" camp... but if anyone ever mentions the 82 world cup, it's Brazil - Zico, Socrates et al that I will always remember first and foremost. Fantastic football to watch.
 

Kieran

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Well, the blurb on post-1982 Brazil is that they lost confidence in the samba football philosophy and embraced the European style game, which is a victory for systems over individual expression. They certainly haven't had a side since that played World Cup football as if it was a forum to exhibit their peerless range of skills...
 

brokenshoelace

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Thank god the Ballon D'or debate is over. It's literally my least favorite topic in all of sport, at least since Messi and Ronaldo became the world's best. I honestly didn't care who won (I can see a case for all 3) but I just wanted it to be over with.

That said, Ballon D'Or had more legitimacy when the winner was decided by the media rather than players. There's an obvious conflict of interest. For example, Messi voted for Iniesta, Xavi (LOL! He had a sub-par season) and someone (I can't recall who it was, but it was neither Ronaldo nor Ribery). Meanwhile, Ronaldo voted for Falcao, Ozil and Bale. Roben Van Persie voted for Arjen Robben (major LOL). Buffon voted for Pirlo (Pirlo might be my favorite player in Football, but come on).... So anyway, it essentially turns into voting for your friends, voting political votes, or a popularity contest.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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^^ I suppose so..but loads of players and coaches have a vote from every corner of the world (for the earth IS square and thus it has corners)..so many vote that it should weed out some silly choices that a few coaces/players make..

the footballing cream will generally gather around the tastiest football pie, no-one can argue against ronaldo/messi/ribery being top three..ribery was the slightly odd one but then he was scoring and creating a lot of goals as the playmaker of fc Bayern munchen who won the german bundesliga and also European cup/champions league..messi and Ronaldo have been extending the frontiers of the goalscoring vistas in recent years...

every year they clean up..(last 6yrs Ronaldo, messi, messi, messi, messi, Ronaldo, win the balloon door).
 

brokenshoelace

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
^^ I suppose so..but loads of players and coaches have a vote from every corner of the world (for the earth IS square and thus it has corners)..so many vote that it should weed out some silly choices that a few coaces/players make..

the footballing cream will generally gather around the tastiest football pie, no-one can argue against ronaldo/messi/ribery being top three..ribery was the slightly odd one but then he was scoring and creating a lot of goals as the playmaker of fc Bayern munchen who won the german bundesliga and also European cup/champions league..messi and Ronaldo have been extending the frontiers of the goalscoring vistas in recent years...

every year they clean up..(last 6yrs Ronaldo, messi, messi, messi, messi, Ronaldo, win the balloon door).

I'm fine with Ronaldo winning and he would have been my personal choice. However, there's a lot of political/strategic voting involved. For example, the Portuguese coach voted for Ronaldo (obviously) but chose Van Persie and Robben behind him (obviously not wanting to give Messi and Ribery votes).

I guess you could say these are but some isolated votes, but when the majority of team captains and coaches are voting for their players/teammates, it becomes a problem.

I just think the Ballon D'Or is among the many things Fifa has ruined. Extending the deadline was so arbitrary I'm shocked it wasn't questioned more. Imagine all the votes were made, and then Fifa not only extended the deadline, but allowed voters to change their votes. It's kind of a shady move.

Regardless, the right man won, in my opinion.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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about 545 different people around the planet voted..assortment of captains, coaches, media.
 

brokenshoelace

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
about 545 different people around the planet voted..assortment of captains, coaches, media.

I'm well aware. And yet, since FIFA took over we've had our most controversial Ballon D'or winners (Messi in 2010, despite Spain winning the World Cup thanks to Iniesta/Xavi and Sneijder winning the treble, reaching the world cup final AND finishing as the top scorer...likewise, while I personally feel Ronaldo's trophy is well deserved this year, Ribery's treble could have easily given him the nod). In fairness, there was a controversial Ballon D'Or win in the pre FIFA era with Michael Owen's 2001 win.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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^^it depends on how people view it. the two outstanding individual players of recent times have been messi/Ronaldo.

its for individual performances which is why messi and Ronaldo keep winning..the fact ribery won the treble; was it his brilliance ? or more the amazingly strong team he played for ?..i'd say the latter.

where does individual performance end and team performance begin ?..how long is a piece of string ??

folk are never going to be happy, in the end its a decent system with i few blips in like you said, but when 545 people who are prominent in world football vote 1, 2, 3, its not perfect but i don't see what else they can do..
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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1972Murat said:
I know there are some fans here and I thought we could discuss Champions league, or our favourite teams, everything football here. Here is one of my favorite Messi goals to get things started:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOWrtCOMxto[/video]
^^^this is 2007 video, he likes scoring amazing goals vs Getafe,

messi 2nd goal vs getafe on Thursday jan 16th was also a classic ..he went past about 4 players. inc a nutmeg. it was more condensed run from just outside the area I think.
 

atttomole

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
1972Murat said:
I know there are some fans here and I thought we could discuss Champions league, or our favourite teams, everything football here. Here is one of my favorite Messi goals to get things started:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOWrtCOMxto[/video]
^^^this is 2007 video, he likes scoring amazing goals vs Getafe,

messi 2nd goal vs getafe on Thursday jan 16th was also a classic ..he went past about 4 players. inc a nutmeg. it was more condensed run from just outside the area I think.
There is a cracker Barca-Man City. Hard to predict this one. I am an inter Milan fan so I will enjoy myself as a neutral. I fancy City to go through.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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Liverpool 5 - 1 arsenal..wut ?..I was forgetting its that time of the season when arsenal begin their traditional collapse away for the summit of the prem.

5 goals and zero for suarez !..unusual.

Christian bale scores for real Madrid in the absence of Ronaldo..and messi bursts back into life with 2 classy goals after a subdued post injury few matches..

rMadrid/barca/althetico Madrid are joint leaders I think in la liga.

man utd ?. :snigger
 

Kieran

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Arsenal still struggling to win against top teams, Man City stalling a little, Man Utd in reverse - and Jose top of the league. It's still wide open but it's looking ominous....
 

britbox

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I still think City will win the league, largely because they have the depth in the squad. Chelsea probably will run them close. Arsenal don't have the depth... and I predicted they'd fall away in the last quarter of the season. Liverpool don't have the depth either, but I'd give their starting XI a shot against anyone.

I think the table will end like this:

1. Man City
2. Chelsea
3. Liverpool
4. Arsenal
5. Tottenham or Man United
 

brokenshoelace

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Given how good/deep their squad is, and how shaky/mediocre other top teams have been, City are definitely underperforming. I too think they'll win the league, but they should have been comfortably sitting at the top at this point.

Arsenal are just way too shaky. Their backline is atrocious, their star player has always been inconsistent (Ozil), and they lack a quality striker.