Roland Garros / French Open 2023 [Men] - Grand Slam

[Moxie]

Maybe I'm just tired, but I can't figure out where TF you're going w/ this? You seem to question Novak's bona fides, but tout his great numbers over Nadal! My head's spinning a little; errrr a lot! Due to the surface catagory being taken into consideration, Rafa's lucky to be thought as TOP 2 IMO! I'm giving him that since he owned Roger very early on! Fed might have been able to survive the scrutiny if he'd retired earlier, but he hurt his legacy w/ those last 2 years of EGO & greed! It wasn't for anyone to tell him to leave gracefully on top back in 2018, but IMO he blew it! It just wasn't worth it! He's now #3 all time and for good!

Rafa didn't just own Roger very early on...he owned him their whole h2h. Unlike Novak, who took a long time to get over his deficit with both. I'm not sure why he surface GOAT thing is so hard for you to wrap your pretty little head around. You've had a lot of time to think about it.

But as to Roger leaving in 2018, I guess you mean after he won the AO? The man made the finals of Wimbledon in 2019. He was 2 points away from the title and it slipped away, but can that be called slinking away without a fight? After that, he was basically absent due to injury, but I'm not sure that part matters. But why be such a crank about the way Roger went out? What do you care? I thought you hated him and Rafa.

 

[britbox]

I'm pretty sure it's not lost on anyone, except maybe you. "Will probably be the order of things?" Of all of the records of the Big 3, Rafa's on clay are likely to stand the longest. Without revisiting everything, he's won the FO 14 and counting. (Closest is Chris Evert, with 7, in men's, Borg, with 6.) For a man to surpass that, he'd have to play Roland Garros at least 15 times, which is hard enough, and win it at least that many times. Rafa has a 91% win rate on clay. Roger 89% on grass, Novak 85% on HC. (All records.) Nadal is 137-3 in best of 5 on clay. That will stand the test of time, for a while. As will his 81 consecutive wins on clay. Single surface record. Roger's on grass is 65, and Novak's on HC is 45 (not sure if that is the record.)

So, I think you can put away the "maybe." And this is why folks like El Dude say that the GOAT discussion is complicated.

For someone who rebukes the idea of a GOAT, you sure seem rather touchy about it. Pulling up all sorts of stats to cement Rafa's position as the Clay GOAT but heaven forbid anybody bring up Novak's body of work in a scenario that takes all surfaces into account.

"No, no... they are all GOATS" Unfortunately, first among equals is an oxymoron. In a results-based business, Novak has the best stats and the most silverware in most of the key categories. Facts are facts. A shock in the final doesn't really change that... but a win will cement it, and transcend the sport because it puts him at the top of the major tree. To a casual observer without nuance, it does matter.

As for the post from the past, it was based on giving the player a GOAT title. In context, I said Djokovic was the GOAT. Federer could be the Style GOAT (as in game, not in clothing!) and Nadal could be the Clay GOAT. It wasn't disputing his clay resume - he is clearly the GOAT of Clay. I was referring to what title to give him... as I think you probably know.

 

[britbox]

View attachment 8283

Joe Namath owns copyright on "The Guarantee". Jelenafan's "garauntee" is a careful way of bypassing legal action. A bit like when Enesse started making sports gear that looked remarkably like the designs by Ellesse.

 

[Moxie]

For someone who rebukes the idea of a GOAT, you sure seem rather touchy about it. Pulling up all sorts of stats to cement Rafa's position as the Clay GOAT but heaven forbid anybody bring up Novak's body of work in a scenario that takes all surfaces into account.

"No, no... they are all GOATS" Unfortunately, first among equals is an oxymoron. In a results-based business, Novak has the best stats and the most silverware in most of the key categories. Facts are facts. A shock in the final doesn't really change that... but a win will cement it, and transcend the sport because it puts him at the top of the major tree. To a casual observer without nuance, it does matter.

As for the post from the past, it was based on giving the player a GOAT title. In context, I said Djokovic was the GOAT. Federer could be the Style GOAT (as in game, not in clothing!) and Nadal could be the Clay GOAT. It wasn't disputing his clay resume - he is clearly the GOAT of Clay. I was referring to what title to give him... as I think you probably know.

I'm just debating the argument at hand. I'm not in the business of arguing on behalf of Novak. Plenty enough do. My position is that there are reasons to debate how we got here and what we do with it. As El Dude has said, if you want to go with the pure numbers, Novak is on the brink of top dog. I get that. I just think it's more complicated than that. Not tetchy. I'm just saying I've seriously never believed you'd get to One. And that has been my opinion since WAY before the Big 3 were the Big 3. It is even more my position as we look from the progression of one to the other and the other.

As to your post from the past, this is what you said: "Novak is the technical GOAT, Roger the style GOAT, and Rafa the Clay GOAT...maybe." You didn't say that Novak was the GOAT. You couched it with "technical." I said that to you at the time. I even said that if I were a Novak fan, I'd have been more insulted by that, than your calling Rafa the Clay GOAT - maybe. It was a way of putting off the idea that Roger somehow failed to meet the GOAT criterion, after his fans were so sure that he would. Style GOAT means nothing, even though I know you don't mean his clothes. Sure, he was a very stylish player. Yes, he hit a lot of records before others surpassed him. This is why you should side with my position. If there is One GOAT, Roger isn't it. Incredibly stylish, or not.

I've been saying for years, to the irritation of Federer Fans, that you'll never be able to separate Roger and Rafa. And now, from a historical perspective, I am proved correct. With the addition of Novak, the same remains true. You can't really talk about one, and not talk about the others. Therefore, age difference, timing, match-ups...many things come into the conversation. Including H2Hs, since they're all so close.

 

[the AntiPusher]

As for Novak vs. Ruud, let's just put it this way: If Ruud wins, it will be one of the big upsets in Slam history. But let us not forget that we're talking about a 24 year old vs a 36 year old. Age could play a factor, even if Novak's fitness is still inhuman.

If nothing else, I'm just trying to find a way into this match being potentially interesting. I suppose the possibility I see is Ruud hanging tough, set by set, and wearing Novak down. I mean, maybe?

Rudd may win a total of 8 or 10 games..he has nothing to trouble Novak or make it uncomfortable for the Great Siberian Slayer...I'm going to church and swimming. It's almost Summer time

 

[Moxie]

As for Novak vs. Ruud, let's just put it this way: If Ruud wins, it will be one of the big upsets in Slam history. But let us not forget that we're talking about a 24 year old vs a 36 year old. Age could play a factor, even if Novak's fitness is still inhuman.

If nothing else, I'm just trying to find a way into this match being potentially interesting. I suppose the possibility I see is Ruud hanging tough, set by set, and wearing Novak down. I mean, maybe?

Ruud's best chance is to get on Novak's last nerve, and never get off of it.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Ruud's best chance is to get on Novak's last nerve, and never get off of it.

If Ruud has any chance he has to win the 1st set, that is imperative, from memory Novak win after taking the 1st set is around 95%

 

[Moxie]

If Ruud has any chance he has to win the 1st set, that is imperative, from memory Novak win after taking the 1st set is around 95%

Stan is really the only guy who beat Novak in a final of a Major after losing the first set, I think, and he did it twice. But Ruud is not Stan, and Stan already had a history of beating Novak at Majors before those finals, so I wouldn't council Casper to flirt with that option.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Stan is really the only guy who beat Novak in a final of a Major after losing the first set, I think, and he did it twice. But Ruud is not Stan, and Stan already had a history of beating Novak at Majors before those finals, so I wouldn't council Casper to flirt with that option.

Novak is still hard to beat when he wins the 1st set, if he comes out like he did against Alcaraz, played flawless tennis, I feel he will try to replicate what he did in that 1st set against Alcaraz, sending out a strong message, just my thoughts.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I know in my head Djokovic has this match, but in my heart, I really want Casper to win or at least make Djokovic suffer while at it.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Ruud has a legitimate chance, especially tomorrow.

Tennis is very psychological, sometimes it’s just about the law of averages catching up.

1.Ruud is too good to never beat djoker, he’s 0-4, he’s primed for a win.
2. He’s peaking at the right time after a subpar season
3. This is his 3rd slam final. If it were his first, i would give him little chance but he has the experience now.
4. He’s younger and fresher. Novak vs alcaraz was intense, even if was just two hard fought sets. Even carlitos body broke down.
5. Djokovic will have the pressure as favorite and with chance to break slam record
6. This is Ruud’s favourite surface
7. Djokovic will go into final feeling like he already played the final when he beat alcaraz, he may experience a drop in intensity. This is what happened in 2021 when he beat rafa in semis and started against tsitsipas lacking the same intensity he had against rafa and saw himself down 2 sets. Same thing happened when he lost to stan in finals after beating nadal earlier

Of course djokovic has a lot on his side being the better player overall, having more experience but the margins are small. The difference between novak and ruud is small, maybe a bit better backhand, movement etc.. any of above factors can be an equalizer or tip things in Ruud’s favour. Ruud is primed for a win and will be ready. If novak plays his best, he wins but that’s hard to do day in day out and any mental or physical factor can decide the match.

Tactically, ruud has a big weapon - forehand. His serve is good. His bh is not comparable to djokovic’s. I think if Ruud just tries to hit fh winners like mad, he will lose but if he plays consistent, dictates with his forehand without red lining and get gets to djokovic mentally and physically, he can win. Somehow, i feel he has a good shot given the circumstances and factors i mention.

Hey Brotha I hope you're correct because your analysis looks spot on..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

A Djoko smash and Ruud breaks early, Novak is full of nerves, to be expected, making UFE

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

These first two games indicate what Ruud must do if he wants to win, protect his serve and frustrate Novak by making life difficult on his serve.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

These first two games indicate what Ruud must do if he wants to win, protect his serve and frustrate Novak by making life difficult on his serve.

Ruud cant hit through Novak, he has to find another way, so far I dont mind his tactics

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Ruud cant hit through Novak, he has to find another way, so far I dont mind his tactics

He has to find a way to keep Novak from finding a rhythm. I would mix up baseline and net play.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

He also needs to be prepared for a Novak reset and prepared to just hang by serving well and hoping for some nerves to creep in at key moments in this match.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Tom Brady in Novak's box

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Novak's feet arent in position at present, needs adjustment,
Ruud has come out making a statement at present leads 4-1

 

[Front242]

I still ask, where is Djokovic lacking in comparison to Fedal? Is this more about popularity and overall respect from the tennis intelliogentsia? I'm still trying to fathom WTF you're talking about? I was on board for Federer being the GOAT years ago, & even joined the bandwagon of making excuses for him being Nadal's b!tch, even on grass! But I finally had to put things into persepctive (as you say), & even though he stole 3 more majors late while Novak was on a "walkabout" & injured in 2017, all Roger did was hurt his legacy IMO! He's a firm #3 even w/ his wks. @ #1 a lot better than Rafa's! I have no more words! I gotta go calm my heart rate and blood pressure from this nonsense!

Neither Federer or Nadal have been filmed mutiple times with their teams mixing dodgy drinks for them or inhaling a drink through a funnel taped to the bottle or wrapped in a towel for one anyway...

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Ruud needs to do whatever he can to serve out for this set and give Novak something to chew on for this match.