Roland Garros 2017, Paris, France, ATP GRAND SLAM

[Carol]

No, Novak was simply much better the last few years than he is now. That's all there is to it. He's still got time to play himself into form though. Same as with Murray's poor play, the level of both has dropped massively since last year.

And Nadal was simply much better than the last almost three years but everything goes in circles because nobody can keep playing their best forever

 

[Carol]

OCO, Nole set a record in 2015 beating over 30 top 10 players! If Nadal falling off was the only reason he took 3 Majors, 6 Masters, & the YEC, what does that say about the rest of the tour?

Tell me how good the rest of the Tour was playing.............

 

[DarthFed]

This ignores the pesky little details that Nadal is playing acres better than he has for 3 years, and also that they haven't much met since Novak took to his fainting couch. I'd wager that his absence from the late stages of the AO helped your old buddy Roger, too. He's been Fed's daddy in the Majors for some time now.

Notice that I did say everyone benefits and that includes Federer. I get your sensitivity on the subject but I think you know there's truth to it. Why do you think Rafa is playing so much better? I'd say a lot of it is down to confidence. And why do you think he's so confident? Having someone who owns your ass to the tune of 7 straight wins and 15 straight sets is a HUGE mental barrier. And now that guy is basically more or less out of the way.

Yes Nole has gotten the better of Fed at majors from 2014-2016 but Fed has remained competitive and has beaten him quite a bit as well outside of them. It's not even close to Nadal getting taken up the... Here's a question, do you think Rafa would have even made the semi of the AO this year if Nole was cutting through the draw like a hot knife through butter? I don't think he would have, it's not that Rafa would ever tank to avoid him but mentally he went from seeing an immovable barrier in Nole to suddenly having a very good chance to win the title. These guys are all opportunists, Fed, Rafa, and Nole. That's not an insult, it's one of their best characteristics. Finding their games especially when their chances improve due to an upset or other circumstances.

 

[DarthFed]

Excluding 2011 we also could say that the reason for Novak's good times and being his daddy was thanks to the Nadal's bad times even a lot worse than Novak is having now

What came first, the chicken or the egg? A lot of Rafa's issues came from getting destroyed by Nole which took out his confidence.

 

[DarthFed]

Notice that I did say everyone benefits and that includes Federer. I get your sensitivity on the subject but I think you know there's truth to it. Why do you think Rafa is playing so much better? I'd say a lot of it is down to confidence. And why do you think he's so confident? Having someone who owns your ass to the tune of 7 straight wins and 15 straight sets is a HUGE mental barrier. And that guy is basically more or less out of the way at least for now.

Yes Nole has gotten the better of Fed at majors from 2014-2016 but Fed has remained competitive and has beaten him quite a bit as well outside of them. It's not even close to Nadal getting taken up the... Here's a question, do you think Rafa would have even made the semi of the AO this year if Nole was cutting through the draw like a hot knife through butter? I don't think he would have, it's not that Rafa would ever tank to avoid him but mentally he went from seeing an immovable barrier in Nole to suddenly having a very good chance to win the title. These guys are all opportunists, Fed, Rafa, and Nole. That's not an insult, it's one of their best characteristics. Finding their games especially when their chances improve due to an upset or other circumstances.

 

[Moxie]

No, Novak was simply much better the last few years than he is now. That's all there is to it. He's still got time to play himself into form though. Same as with Murray's poor play, the level of both has dropped massively since last year.

Carol's not wrong. She excluded 2011, and some of Novak's benefit came from a lesser Nadal and Federer. Yes, he was excellent, but he wasn't so when they were steamrolling. I fully expect Djokovic and Murray to find their forms again, but Rafa and Roger still have enough chops to find their own, and take advantage of an opportunity.

 

[Moxie]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? A lot of Rafa's issues came from getting destroyed by Nole which took out his confidence.

I think that was true in 2011. But in 2015-16, injuries are what took it out. Look, I won't pretend that Novak hasn't been in Rafa's head. And, no matter how great Nadal is playing at the moment, and how iffy Novak looks, if they get to that semi, I expect scar tissue to play a role. However, you ignore a lot of factors by attributing it simply to the Nole-factor on Nadal. You've certainly found other excuses for Roger's sinks, and not just the Rafa-factor. Keep it fair.

 

[Carol]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? A lot of Rafa's issues came from getting destroyed by Nole which took out his confidence.

Clearly the Rafa's issues came from his injuries which gave him a badly lack of confidence

 

[DarthFed]

I think that was true in 2011. But in 2015-16, injuries are what took it out. Look, I won't pretend that Novak hasn't been in Rafa's head. And, no matter how great Nadal is playing at the moment, and how iffy Novak looks, if they get to that semi, I expect scar tissue to play a role. However, you ignore a lot of factors by attributing it simply to the Nole-factor on Nadal. You've certainly found other excuses for Roger's sinks, and not just the Rafa-factor. Keep it fair.

Nadal wasn't injured at all in 2015 and the first half of 2016 and Nole beat him 6 times all in easy straights.

What excuses have I made for Federer exactly?

 

[Moxie]

Notice that I did say everyone benefits and that includes Federer. I get your sensitivity on the subject but I think you know there's truth to it. Why do you think Rafa is playing so much better? I'd say a lot of it is down to confidence. And why do you think he's so confident? Having someone who owns your ass to the tune of 7 straight wins and 15 straight sets is a HUGE mental barrier. And now that guy is basically more or less out of the way.

Yes Nole has gotten the better of Fed at majors from 2014-2016 but Fed has remained competitive and has beaten him quite a bit as well outside of them. It's not even close to Nadal getting taken up the... Here's a question, do you think Rafa would have even made the semi of the AO this year if Nole was cutting through the draw like a hot knife through butter? I don't think he would have, it's not that Rafa would ever tank to avoid him but mentally he went from seeing an immovable barrier in Nole to suddenly having a very good chance to win the title. These guys are all opportunists, Fed, Rafa, and Nole. That's not an insult, it's one of their best characteristics. Finding their games especially when their chances improve due to an upset or other circumstances.

I did notice that glancing and vague comment. And I've responded to most of this before I read it. I don't see the point, especially, in imagining an alternate reality where Novak as playing as well as he has in the past few years, at the AO and elsewhere. Sure, I think it helped Rafa's confidence to not have to play ND at that point in his comeback, as I believe it did Roger. And you don't have to convince me that being opportunists is a compliment...I've defended it many times. But one thing that works for one, works for another. Roger getting the better of a guy who had owned his ass helped his confidence, too. And got him a couple of bonus wins. Rafa and Novak tend to trade fortunes, and Rafa is trending now. Djokovic has benefitted from Roger and Rafa not being peak or at top strength. The fact that it comes back on him now to be the one not at the top of his game is just a fact of tennis. Nadal's resurgence is a product of his own hard work, and changes in his game. You can't put it all down to Novak's sink, even though I'll admit and accept the leg-up it gave.

 

[Carol]

The problem with the Roger's fans is always the same, anyone who beats Nadal is welcome. After the fast improvement of Novak in 2011 (in two months he was another player) his results was an OASIS for them thinking because Roger was aging someone had to stop Nadal, it doesn't matter who) because their mad obsession always has been thinking that Rafa could reach his numbers and the others were far to do it or in case that later someone could make it then their excuse would be: "Nah, just when Roger was old or retired".
Relax guys,I don't think Rafa could reach the 18 but you should give him the credit that he deserves instead of to shoot yourselves in the foot because as more you try to put him down as more you are doing the same to Roger

 

[Moxie]

Nadal wasn't injured at all in 2015 and the first half of 2016 and Nole beat him 6 times all in easy straights.

What excuses have I made for Federer exactly?

2015 was all about Nadal's lack of confidence. If you're going to insist that Djokovic undermined his confidence, you can't debate that.

Excuses for Federer? You have made the mono excuse for Roger in 2008, instead of allowing that Rafa had just gotten better than he was by that year. You still can't face that Rafa was the better player at Wimbledon that year. You are inclined to say that he was already then past his peak by 2007, (hello, 2017!) This is a lot of trying not to say that Nadal was simply just owning him at that point. That's one example.

 

[Carol]

Nadal wasn't injured at all in 2015 and the first half of 2016 and Nole beat him 6 times all in easy straights.

What excuses have I made for Federer exactly?

Nadal wasn't injured but his head was which is even worse and more difficult to heal than the body. Obviously that bad time is gone and besides to recovery his game and confidence also is doing some good improvements like his serve, FH and volleys, what else we can ask?

 

[Moxie]

Nadal wasn't injured but his head was which is even worse and more difficult to heal than the body. Obviously that bad time is gone and besides to recovery his game and confidence also is doing some good improvements like his serve, FH and volleys, what else we can ask?

There is some talk of the Moyá-factor, and I think we're beginning to see it. In general, Rafa is hitting harder in matches than he has historically, although he's always hit harder in practice than in matches. His spot-serving is better, and both his 1st and 2nd serves have more pace. And he's really found his FHDL, which is critical.

 

[DarthFed]

2015 was all about Nadal's lack of confidence. If you're going to insist that Djokovic undermined his confidence, you can't debate that.

Excuses for Federer? You have made the mono excuse for Roger in 2008, instead of allowing that Rafa had just gotten better than he was by that year. You still can't face that Rafa was the better player at Wimbledon that year. You are inclined to say that he was already then past his peak by 2007, (hello, 2017!) This is a lot of trying not to say that Nadal was simply just owning him at that point. That's one example.

Actually I don't and haven't made the mono excuse for his weak 2008. I have just brought it up to those Rafa fans who are quick to blame injury every time Rafa loses yet laugh off the mono talk in 2008. Roger lost because he sucked for most of that year including that Wimby final. If they played ten times on grass even back then he should win at least 9, Rafa was never anything special on that stuff and we can see that now. I'd say Roger's play in 2008- early 2010 shows that he was past his peak yet still in his prime if that makes sense. Hell, I've seen Rafa fans, yourself included, say Rafa was past his peak by 2011 when he turned 25.

 

[Carol]

Actually I don't and haven't made the mono excuse for his weak 2008. I have just brought it up to those Rafa fans who are quick to blame injury every time Rafa loses yet laugh off the mono talk in 2008. Roger lost because he sucked for most of that year including that Wimby final. If they played ten times on grass even back then he should win at least 9, Rafa was never anything special on that stuff and we can see that now. I'd say Roger's play in 2008- early 2010 shows that he was past his peak yet still in his prime if that makes sense. Hell, I've seen Rafa fans, yourself included, say Rafa was past his peak by 2011 when he turned 25.

Who said Rafa was past his peak by 2011? not me and less after to see him playing in 2013. But after that AO final 2014 was another story, it was the beginning of his roller coaster

 

[Moxie]

Actually I don't and haven't made the mono excuse for his weak 2008. I have just brought it up to those Rafa fans who are quick to blame injury every time Rafa loses yet laugh off the mono talk in 2008. Roger lost because he sucked for most of that year including that Wimby final. If they played ten times on grass even back then he should win at least 9, Rafa was never anything special on that stuff and we can see that now. I'd say Roger's play in 2008- early 2010 shows that he was past his peak yet still in his prime if that makes sense. Hell, I've seen Rafa fans, yourself included, say Rafa was past his peak by 2011 when he turned 25.

I'm sorry, but this is revisionist history. To say you only brought up the mono to combat Nadal fans is lame. If you're not looking for an excuse, you're not, but if you bring one up, you are. And to say that Roger "sucked" most of that year is to negate that he "sucked" because Rafa was better. Rafa nearly beat him at Wimbledon in '07, and a lot of pundits picked Rafa to win in Wimbledon in '08 for that reason. Like it or not, (and I know you don't,) Roger lost a tight final at Wimbledon in '08 because Nadal was that much better. You just can't admit that. At least Rafa fans admit when Djokovic was better in 2011. I've heard you make the case before that 9 matches out of 10 on grass, Roger would win. It's fine to say that, but to say that Rafa was "never special on the stuff" is sour grapes. He has 2 Wimbledons. Getting down low on the grass is hard for his tendonitis, and accounts for some part of his lack of success after. But don't think I've given up on him at Wimbledon!

I have never said that Nadal was past his peak in 2011. It was Djokovic that stole his thunder that year, and I'm pretty sure that I've copped to that. But he was maybe peak-plateau (ask El Dude about that) and coming off after his "peak" soon after. I do get the difference between peak and prime. It's worth remembering how early Nadal came up to top level, too. To my point that you're responding to, you can't admit that Rafa was owning Roger in 2008 because he'd just surpassed him at level, and yet you can hammer on about Novak owning Rafa. You're a bit deluded about Roger's 2008.

 

[britbox]

Results from the French Open Men's Singles Round 3 matches on Friday

19-Albert Ramos (Spain) beat 16-Lucas Pouille (France) 6-2 3-6 5-7 6-2 6-1
2-Novak Djokovic (Serbia) beat Diego Schwartzman (Argentina) 5-7 6-3 3-6 6-1 6-1
6-Dominic Thiem (Austria) beat 25-Steve Johnson (U.S.) 6-1 7-6(4) 6-3
4-Rafa Nadal (Spain) beat Nikoloz Basilashvili (Georgia) 6-0 6-1 6-0
20-Pablo Carreno (Spain) beat 11-Grigor Dimitrov (Bulgaria) 7-5 6-3 6-4
17-Roberto Bautista (Spain) beat Jiri Vesely (Czech Republic) 6-3 6-4 6-3
Horacio Zeballos (Argentina) beat 10-David Goffin (Belgium) 4-5 (Goffin retired)
5-Milos Raonic (Canada) beat Guillermo Garcia-Lopez (Spain) 6-1 1-0 (Garcia-Lopez retired)


19-Albert Ramos (Spain) beat 16-Lucas Pouille (France) 6-2 3-6 5-7 6-2 6-1



4-Rafa Nadal (Spain) beat Nikoloz Basilashvili (Georgia) 6-0 6-1 6-0





6-Dominic Thiem (Austria) beat 25-Steve Johnson (U.S.) 6-1 7-6(4) 6-3



2-Novak Djokovic (Serbia) beat Diego Schwartzman (Argentina) 5-7 6-3 3-6 6-1 6-1

 

[DarthFed]

We can go in circles all day on this but Roger was losing to a lot of his pigeons (Fish, Roddick, Stepanakert) even before winning only 4 games in RG, and losing weakly on grass after 65 straight wins. And he also got blown out at AO by young Djokovic too, clearly he was not at the same level as previous years and that was a big part of the reason some picked Rafa to win on grass. It was clear by then Roger was there for the taking and Rafa would have the big mental edge going in. That and 2010 when Roger was slipping badly and couldn't beat anyone at that point are the only years you'd give Rafa a good chance on grass vs. him. That match in 2008 was maybe Roger's greatest failure.

 

[britbox]

Order of Play (Saturday) - Show Courts

PHILIPPE-CHATRIER COURT

11:00

• Alizé Cornet (FRA) v Agnieszka Radwanska (POL) [9]
• Andy Murray (GBR) [1] v Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) [29]
• Richard Gasquet (FRA) [24] v Gael Monfils (FRA) [15]
• Elina Svitolina (UKR) [5] v Magda Linette (POL)

SUZANNE-LENGLEN COURT

• Feliciano Lopez (ESP) v Marin Cilic (CRO) [7]
• Daria Kasatkina (RUS) [26] v Simona Halep (ROU) [3]
• Stan Wawrinka (SUI) [3] v Fabio Fognini (ITA) [28]
• Anastasija Sevastova (LAT) [17] v Petra Martic (CRO)

COURT 1

• Su-Wei Hsieh (TPE) v Caroline Garcia (FRA) [28]
• Hyeon Chung (KOR) v Kei Nishikori (JPN) [8]
• Carina Witthoeft (GER) v Karolina Pliskova (CZE) [2]

COURT 2

• Kyle Edmund (GBR) v Kevin Anderson (RSA)
• John Isner (USA) [21] v Karen Khachanov (RUS)
• Veronica Cepede Royg (PAR) v Mariana Duque-Marino (COL)

COURT 3

• Elena Vesnina (RUS) [14] v Carla Suarez Navarro (ESP) [21]
• Fernando Verdasco (ESP) v Pablo Cuevas (URU) [22]