Rogers Cup Final - Nadal v. Raonic

[calitennis127]

You can keep tap-dancing to this same song, but, since Nadal keeps racking up titles, no one's buying it.

Indeed. Congratulations on that 2013 Wimbledon title and that brilliant performance in the 2011 Wimbledon and US Open finals.

Now you're trying to sell of Janowicz as better than Nadal

He has better shots on a hardcourt. Period.

 

[calitennis127]

These are great players we are talking about here. Finals and semis are accomplishments to the likes of Berdych, Raonic, Isner, etc. When talking the top 4 and even DP, an accomplishment is holding the trophy on Sunday. Nothing more, nothing less. You make the semi of a GS as a top player you can say the tournament wasn't a total disaster but you still haven't done anything. I've had this argument before with certain people who think Roger losing in a QF at a slam is not an awful result. The QF at a slam is usually the first time the top players are playing anyone halfway decent.

Darth, if you were Roger Federer himself in a bad mood talking about things this way, I would get it. But to my knowledge, you are not Roger Federer himself, even if you happen to be in a bad mood.

It is amazing that Moxie and Tented - who repeatedly criticize me for being too critical of other players - would allow you to say that "the QF at a Slam is usually the first time the top players are playing anyone halfway decent". Even if you are right in a significant sense (one which I agree with), only getting to the quarterfinal of a Slam is not reason to just hang em up and say "I suck now. Time to move on with my life."

 

[calitennis127]

Darth's point is well-taken, Cali. Getting "close" isn't getting the job done.

At the risk of seeming to gloat: you're the guy who touts what a talent Nalbandian is, yet he has 2 MS titles, period...in a 13-year career, and yet you have the nerve to act like winning 7 - just on HCs - in 11 years, 'ain't no thang.' (I suppose I shouldn't mention the other 18 off of them.)

You can keep tap-dancing to this same song, but, since Nadal keeps racking up titles, no one's buying it. Now you're trying to sell of Janowicz as better than Nadal...and basically no one even knew who he was until Bercy last year. You're grasping at every straw that flies by trying to undersell Nadal.

You, Darth, Kieran, Broken, Murat, et al. are allowing this to continue. In a way, you have only yourselves to blame.

If Darth, Kieran, Broken, Murat, and Moxie are, in real life, Nikolay Davydenko, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, Novak Djokovic, David Nalbandian, Roger Federer, or any other players who have duffed up Nadal on a hardcourt, then I completely agree with you.

 

[calitennis127]

Cali.

You dislike Nadal, that much is clear, but before the match you predict he'll lose and then when he wins, you blame his opponent. Give us a break, eh? The guy is a tennis giant and he swats fellers like Raonic and JJ in his sleep, yet you predicted both of them would beat him. For no reason other than you hoped they would, which loses you credibility.

You predicted Raonic to win, and your reason is that you can't believe Nadal would win five matches in a row on hards.

He won Indian Wells!

Janowicz and Djokovic have more hard-court game than Nadal. They lost those matches more than Nadal won them.

As for today, Raonic is simply terrible from the baseline. As I watched the match today, I realized why I thought he was nothing when I first saw him two years ago. Beating him is nothing to be proud of.

How about beating Nole in the semis? Can he be proud of that or Noles' baseline game is not good either maybe?

Djokovic hit 7 double faults and served 10 percentage points lower than Nadal. He gave it away with sloppiness.

PLS! Rafa was leading 15-40 on Novak's serve in the 2nd set(*) and hit two unforced errors and a couple of 0-30 on the 3rd set. Both of them were sloppy at times. You cant use one excuse for Novak then ignore the same thing happening to Rafa.

Thanks for addressing the two facts that I posted.

 

[britbox]

A great week for Rafa!!!
Loved his aggressive play from the baseline
His serve was great too throughout the tournament
Well done Rafa!!!
I wonder if he will play Cincy now?

I think he'll play Cinci. He didn't have an overly taxing Rogers cup, and doesn't usually miss a tournament when he's on a momentum upswing.

It would be really surprising for me if he withdrew.

 

[britbox]

He has better shots on a hardcourt. Period.

As Kieran put it - just count the ones that land in to the exclusion of anything else.

Not too put a finer point on it, you do realize the purpose of the sport is to win matches? Flamboyant, showreel tennis is all well and good, but the buck stops with winning.

Plastic surgeons aren't the best equipped to perform heart surgery.

 

[calitennis127]

He has better shots on a hardcourt. Period.

As Kieran put it - just count the ones that land in to the exclusion of anything else.

Not too put a finer point on it, you do realize the purpose of the sport is to win matches? Flamboyant, showreel tennis is all well and good, but the buck stops with winning.

Plastic surgeons aren't the best equipped to perform heart surgery.

Yes, Nadal won. Does that mean his shots are better? Not at all.

If you want to say his game is more consistent and persistent, you have no disagreements from me.

 

[Correspondent Kiu]

Congrads to Rafa

 

[DarthFed]

These are great players we are talking about here. Finals and semis are accomplishments to the likes of Berdych, Raonic, Isner, etc. When talking the top 4 and even DP, an accomplishment is holding the trophy on Sunday. Nothing more, nothing less. You make the semi of a GS as a top player you can say the tournament wasn't a total disaster but you still haven't done anything. I've had this argument before with certain people who think Roger losing in a QF at a slam is not an awful result. The QF at a slam is usually the first time the top players are playing anyone halfway decent.

Darth, if you were Roger Federer himself in a bad mood talking about things this way, I would get it. But to my knowledge, you are not Roger Federer himself, even if you happen to be in a bad mood.

It is amazing that Moxie and Tented - who repeatedly criticize me for being too critical of other players - would allow you to say that "the QF at a Slam is usually the first time the top players are playing anyone halfway decent". Even if you are right in a significant sense (one which I agree with), only getting to the quarterfinal of a Slam is not reason to just hang em up and say "I suck now. Time to move on with my life."

I stand by what I said. For the most part the top guys aren't seeing tough competition until the QF's of slams. It is a monster upset if the #4 in any sport loses to someone ranked #12 (a possible 4th round match) as an example. That is usually a huge difference in level of play. And as we know in tennis someone ranked outside the top ten has absolutely no prayer at slams and it has been that way for awhile.

Roger losing to Tsonga, Berdych, Sod, etc. are weak losses flat out. Those guys are not great players and likely never will prove to be. I've never said he should retire because of them, they are just bad losses to tier 2 players and none were deep in the tournament (QF). The day Roger is happy just being mincemeat in the QF is the day he retires... Champions like that don't settle for being 2nd-3rd rate.

 

[the AntiPusher]

A great week for Rafa!!!
Loved his aggressive play from the baseline
His serve was great too throughout the tournament
Well done Rafa!!!
I wonder if he will play Cincy now?

I think he'll play Cinci. He didn't have an overly taxing Rogers cup, and doesn't usually miss a tournament when he's on a momentum upswing.

It would be really surprising for me if he withdrew.

BB, Rafa took the same path during his conquest of the IW title as he has in Montreal,Rafa said he withdrew from Miami because his medical staff advised him his knees need rest , maybe this will not be the case since this is his first tournament in 2 months

 

[zalvar]

A great week for Rafa!!!
Loved his aggressive play from the baseline
His serve was great too throughout the tournament
Well done Rafa!!!
I wonder if he will play Cincy now?

I think he'll play Cinci. He didn't have an overly taxing Rogers cup, and doesn't usually miss a tournament when he's on a momentum upswing.

It would be really surprising for me if he withdrew.

BB, Rafa took the same path during his conquest of the IW title as he has in Montreal,Rafa said he withdrew from Miami because his medical staff advised him his knees need rest , maybe this will not be the case since this is his first tournament in 2 months

And don't forget the 3 clay court tournaments he played before IW. All finals 4 finals. Miami would have been ... brutal.

 

[britbox]

A great week for Rafa!!!
Loved his aggressive play from the baseline
His serve was great too throughout the tournament
Well done Rafa!!!
I wonder if he will play Cincy now?

I think he'll play Cinci. He didn't have an overly taxing Rogers cup, and doesn't usually miss a tournament when he's on a momentum upswing.

It would be really surprising for me if he withdrew.

BB, Rafa took the same path during his conquest of the IW title as he has in Montreal,Rafa said he withdrew from Miami because his medical staff advised him his knees need rest , maybe this will not be the case since this is his first tournament in 2 months

Good point - I'd forgotten about Miami.

 

[ClayDeath]

milos may have been a bit overwhelmed by the occasion. it was his very first masters final.


its a great learning experience for him.

 

[Moxie]

milos may have been a bit overwhelmed by the occasion. it was his very first masters final.

its a great learning experience for him.

For sure he was and for sure it was. Now, spare a moment's praise for your great champion, can you? Come on, CD. Rafa played great. He's made a lot of adjustments to make his game more effective on hards, and specifically against Djokovic, whom he beat, in case you missed it. A morsel of praise? :angel:

 

[ClayDeath]

clay warrior did 2 things well today that made the score 6-2, 6-2:


1. return of serve. this is always key on quicker courts. you just cant win if you cant break.

even in a tiebreaker, you need a mini break.

clay warrior returned well. he focused on the return and was at the right place at the right time more often than not.

2. clean match. just 7 unforced errors.


it is very hard for somebody to beat you if you just wont make many mistakes. especially in the clutch. do you remember the old nadal when he would just not ever miss in the clutch off either wing?


nadal set out to return well and to play a CLEAN match today. that made all things possible to him today.


nadal simply managed to improve from last night. he was able to build on that match.

 

[Moxie]

Well, that's a start from "not being happy with him." :heart: I agree about the ROS. He's been the best and most aggressive off-(or perhaps even on-)clay that we've ever seen him. Excellent serving and selection of where to serve, btw. Same last night, I thought.

As to unforced errors today...there was no one to force them. Raonic was so feeble that, even with Nadal being aggressive, he barely had a chance to miss. Rafa made a fair number of UFEs last night, but as Broken pointed out, they tended to be "good" errors, i.e., because Rafa was going for his shots. This is all positive from Rafa.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, Raonic was rubbish, and he really was out of his depth. I'm not sure it was the occasion, I just think that at that level, where more is required, what he has isn't enough. A big serve, but not a great one in terms of being able to keep the opponent from guessing, and after this? He wheeled about the place like old heavy furniture trying to label a forehand and it was like watching me out there, at times.

No wit, no savvy, no great back-up plan in case Rafa just happened - by mere fluke than anything else, of course - to radar his serve. It was a seriously dull episode and makes me think, we want the makeweights to break through, but then when they do, what happens? Their deficiencies are exposed and the fans get shortchanged...

 

[brokenshoelace]

I will go with Raonic 7-6, 4-6. 7-6.

EDIT: Actually, I will go with 7-6, 7-6 Raonic.

Better shots on hard courts?

 

[brokenshoelace]

And would you also agree that maybe Rafa's serve is approaching 2010 levels? I think it is...

Not even close....at least if you're talking the 2010 US Open.

His serving is where it has always been. It has been his PED, his steroid, that inflates his wins and success. What Andro was to Mark McGwire, first-serve percentage and lack of double faults are to Rafael Nadal.

Agreed with the first part, don't agree with the second. He was serving consistently bigger at the US Open, and the most difficult serve for him to hit -- the one out wide on the deuce court -- was clicking back then.

However, I think for this tournament in particular, Nadal has been serving better than his career average in terms of effectiveness. For the record, there has been multiple tournaments where Nadal served as well as he did in Canada, but that doesn't mean it's his career average, hence my disagreement with "his serve now is where it's always been." His serve in this tourney has been more than just healthy 1st serve % and no double faults...it's actually done damage.

However, I would wait and see before assuming it is going to be the norm for his North American summer (though I hope it is), since it's just one tournament. Prior to that, his serve hasn't been that great this year. It was shaky throughout the clay season (with the exception of some crucial matches), and was horrendous in his one Wimbledon match.

 

[brokenshoelace]

he undoubtedly has enough game to beat the gnat.

A great serve and...?