Roger Federer isn't the GOAT, and neither is Rafael Nadal nor Novak Djokovic / Bodo

GameSetAndMath

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I agree with your general concept, but the truth is the longer someone plays, the greater the chance of pulling down career stats. For example, Roger’s win/loss ratio in major finals would be very different if he had pulled a Borg, and retired early (around, say, 2008). Because he didn’t, he has lost several finals he probably would have won had he been younger. But that’s just math. It doesn’t take into account the full scope of his longevity.

This is why we had the concept of "Most Dominant Player". I have bumped that thread again. You can read the article in the OP of that thread to refresh your memory. MDP is certainly a very real concept.
 
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Ricardo

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do you even give your posts any thought?

mention one player who has been #1 or won slams thats 5'8 in past 25 years... It's an exception. The game has evolved. A person who is 5'8 would simply be at a massive physical disadvantage today...

Take Djokovic, who is listed at 6'2 or 6'3 and make him 5-6 inches shorter.... he would be a totally inferior player... his size/length combined with his speed, ball striking makes him formidable.. harder to ace, harder to blow past winners off him etc... it's night and day.
Rios. But even that’s irrelevant, you are still caught up in this simplistic height thing.
 

monfed

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There's no real GOAT. Yes there is, his name is Roger Federer.
 

Nadalfan2013

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The real question is, when Nadal wins #20 & #21 next year, will Federer be humble enough to present him the trophy? B-)
 

Moxie

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What does being humble have to do with it? Either way the ceremony w/b fake as HE]] since there can't be any "love lost" with them! :whistle:
By all accounts, and quite a lot of evidence, they have a very genial relationship.
 

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By all accounts, and quite a lot of evidence, they have a very genial relationship.

Maybe off court they're all friendly for the media but on court it's a different story. You're only kidding yourself if you think Federer doesn't resent all the shit (including the actual shit/shit break from the Indian Wells semi before Roger served for the match) Nadal has pulled against him over the years. You don't need to go back too far either since he tried again when Federer served for the Wimbledon semi this year. Like I said, friendly for the camera but don't think for 1 second Roger condones that crap or likes him for it.
 

brokenshoelace

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The surface variety thing, it's undeniable that now one style is, to a large extent, capable of working on most surfaces (obviously with some adjustments). In that sense, yes the best players on one surface are mostly the best on others.

The flipside is because most players who are good on one surface are good on another, you're dealing with the same good players everywhere. In other words, back in the 90's, Pete Sampras was a complete no factor on clay. In the modern era, if you're one of the big 4, you had to deal with the other big 3 at every major, and surely that can't classify as "easier to win."
 

Moxie

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Maybe off court they're all friendly for the media but on court it's a different story. You're only kidding yourself if you think Federer doesn't resent all the shit (including the actual shit/shit break from the Indian Wells semi before Roger served for the match) Nadal has pulled against him over the years. You don't need to go back too far either since he tried again when Federer served for the Wimbledon semi this year. Like I said, friendly for the camera but don't think for 1 second Roger condones that crap or likes him for it.
This is you inserting your fannish resentment of Nadal onto Roger's relationship with him. By all indications, while they are fully drawn for battle when they meet on court, they seem to appreciate what they have in common, when they meet in private, and also in how they assess one another, as people. Roger called Rafa to come to his rented house in IW to discuss the Kermode situation, even while neither one was any longer on the players' counsel. This tells us something about their connection and collegiality. You can also just look at how relaxed they are together in Laver Cup. How much fun they had playing doubles together, a couple of years ago. I don't think you can manufacture that. Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova have discussed how no one really understands them the way the other does. This is very likely something that comes into play for Rafa and Roger. The only other person who could understand what it feels like to be at their place in their career in tennis is Novak. You can impose your own resentments on it, but, if you really think about it, who else can relate to this life above the tree line? If they look to each other for a little support and commonality, I really don't find that unbelievable.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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There is no question there is more bad blood between Roger and Novak (King was dead at 2008 AO itself, remember). There is definitely more of a mutual respect between them for their achievements and abilities. Having said that there is no question Roger would hate the gamesmanship of Ralph, even if he won't say much publicly.

There was a SF in Madrid once between Novak and Ralph. They claimed it was a great match and went for a long time. Fed pooh poohed it and said how come a three set match takes that long (unless one is busy picking butt and other is busy bouncing balls). :laugh:
 

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There is no question there is more bad blood between Roger and Novak (King was dead at 2008 AO itself, remember). There is definitely more of a mutual respect between them for their achievements and abilities. Having said that there is no question Roger would hate the gamesmanship of Ralph, even if he won't say much publicly.

There was a SF in Madrid once between Novak and Ralph. They claimed it was a great match and went for a long time. Fed pooh poohed it and said how come a three set match takes that long (unless one is busy picking butt and other is busy bouncing balls). :laugh:
Is that a quote?
 

Moxie

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There is no question there is more bad blood between Roger and Novak (King was dead at 2008 AO itself, remember). There is definitely more of a mutual respect between them for their achievements and abilities. Having said that there is no question Roger would hate the gamesmanship of Ralph, even if he won't say much publicly.

There was a SF in Madrid once between Novak and Ralph. They claimed it was a great match and went for a long time. Fed pooh poohed it and said how come a three set match takes that long (unless one is busy picking butt and other is busy bouncing balls). :laugh:
Again, though, I think your notion that Roger "would hate the gamesmanship of Ralph" is more your notion than his. It implies that he thinks it's gamesmanship, which you don't know. He has ever said that "Rafa plays slow," and that he just had to accept that. There were other times when he had less patience for it, to be honest. But there is nothing clear that Roger feels the way about Nadal's play like the way the fan base does. If he in any way thought that he were a "cheater" or a great hinderance, I think he wouldn't have the relationship with him that he does. Same with the doping. It can't be lost on Roger the accusations against Rafa, across the years. If Roger were super-clean, and Rafa not so, Roger is surely in a better position to know than we do. And vice-versa. To me, either they're both clean, or both dirty, and they both know.
 

Moxie

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GameSetAndMath

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Again, though, I think your notion that Roger "would hate the gamesmanship of Ralph" is more your notion than his. It implies that he thinks it's gamesmanship, which you don't know. He has ever said that "Rafa plays slow," and that he just had to accept that. There were other times when he had less patience for it, to be honest. But there is nothing clear that Roger feels the way about Nadal's play like the way the fan base does. If he in any way thought that he were a "cheater" or a great hinderance, I think he wouldn't have the relationship with him that he does. Same with the doping. It can't be lost on Roger the accusations against Rafa, across the years. If Roger were super-clean, and Rafa not so, Roger is surely in a better position to know than we do. And vice-versa. To me, either they're both clean, or both dirty, and they both know.

Why do you think Roger said that they should preserve blood samples for 10 years so that it can even be retroactively tested when the testing technology improves?
 
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Moxie

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Why do you think Roger said that they should preserve blood samples for 10 years so that it can even be retroactively tested when the testing technology improves?
Because he thinks they should. And he feels quite secure in his position to say it. What else do you think that proves?
 

Moxie

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May be because he thinks someone might be caught if they did it.
It's a decent protocol, knowing what we know about doping staying ahead of the science from WADA. But surely he also knows that he'll never be called out, no matter what. He sits in the catbird seat. And so, now, does Rafa. And Roger would know that, too.
 

monfed

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Fed dislikes them both. Fed dislikes dull for his cheating and overall ugly play and being an aggressive bully on court and he hates faker for his arrogant remarks of "king is dead", his loudmouth camp and for quitting matches with flimsy reasons like sore throat, contact lenses popping out.

Neither of these 2 players are anywhere close to Fed's value system so ofcourse he dislikes them if not despises them.

Fed can't be openly critical about dull because dull used to beat him often so it would sound like sour grapes. With faker he was more open because Fed used to own faker specially before 2011. In 2011-2012 too he burst his balloon a few times.
 

tented

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This is you inserting your fannish resentment of Nadal onto Roger's relationship with him. By all indications, while they are fully drawn for battle when they meet on court, they seem to appreciate what they have in common, when they meet in private, and also in how they assess one another, as people. Roger called Rafa to come to his rented house in IW to discuss the Kermode situation, even while neither one was any longer on the players' counsel. This tells us something about their connection and collegiality. You can also just look at how relaxed they are together in Laver Cup. How much fun they had playing doubles together, a couple of years ago. I don't think you can manufacture that. Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova have discussed how no one really understands them the way the other does. This is very likely something that comes into play for Rafa and Roger. The only other person who could understand what it feels like to be at their place in their career in tennis is Novak. You can impose your own resentments on it, but, if you really think about it, who else can relate to this life above the tree line? If they look to each other for a little support and commonality, I really don't find that unbelievable.

Agreed, but don’t expect too many (if any) people around here to understand this. When Roger was recently asked “Who’s your favorite player to play against?” he said Rafa Nadal, with zero hesitation. They played exhibition matches for each other’s charities. Why would they do any of this if one or both disliked each other? They wouldn’t.
 
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