Rio Open - 500

[calitennis127]

That and Andujar did just enough to lose. 2 crap errors to lose it.

Well, you have to give Nadal some credit there. He forces his opponents to make great shots like that to beat him. It may not be all that impressive in the moment, but considering that he's done that scores of times over the span of a decade with little sign of stopping, you have to give him his due with what he does in that respect.

Andujar hit two great shots in succession. Into the net :nono
He beat himself. Routine netted balls.

Agreed, for the most part.

But why does pretty much everyone have this problem against Nadal?

 

[calitennis127]

That and Andujar did just enough to lose. 2 crap errors to lose it.

Well, you have to give Nadal some credit there. He forces his opponents to make great shots like that to beat him. It may not be all that impressive in the moment, but considering that he's done that scores of times over the span of a decade with little sign of stopping, you have to give him his due with what he does in that respect.

Is that...is it the sound of - nay! - pigs flying o'erhead? Has Cali come close to paying young Ralph a compliment?

Nah, must be bats in the attic again... :nono

I have given Nadal many compliments over the years, albeit with caveats and a very passive-aggressive approach.

 

[the AntiPusher]

That and Andujar did just enough to lose. 2 crap errors to lose it.

Well, you have to give Nadal some credit there. He forces his opponents to make great shots like that to beat him. It may not be all that impressive in the moment, but considering that he's done that scores of times over the span of a decade with little sign of stopping, you have to give him his due with what he does in that respect.

Andujar hit two great shots in succession. Into the net :nono
He beat himself. Routine netted balls.

Agreed, for the most part.

But why does pretty much everyone have this problem against Nadal?

Nah, Andujar is nothing more than a journeyman player who just like the others when they play 1st strike tennis typically come up on the short end of the stick against Rafa. Andujar didnt beat himself, he just played against probably the most consistent player of our time who wasn't having his typically "consistent" day. If you model your game after they types like Blake and Gonzo, you are gonna have about the same amount of grand slam titles as they do.

 

[Front242]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

 

[Kieran]

Come on, Front, you're being harsh. It was the guy's biggest moment ever on a tennis court. He got tight. It's happened to bigger men than him. He got tight because it was Nadal, and it was close. It doesn't detract from the winner of a match if his opponent starts to twitch...

 

[Front242]

He got tight and made routine errors but yeah he lost it, that's all I'm saying. It was there for the taking and he screwed up.

 

[Kieran]

He got tight and made routine errors but yeah he lost it, that's all I'm saying. It was there for the taking and he screwed up.

Give the guy credit for getting that far. It was further than anyone expected, so he over-performed, really...

 

[Front242]

He got tight and made routine errors but yeah he lost it, that's all I'm saying. It was there for the taking and he screwed up.

Give the guy credit for getting that far. It was further than anyone expected, so he over-performed, really...

I give him loads of credit. He played a great match and I was merely replying to AP's quote below.

"Andujar didnt beat himself, he just played against probably the most consistent player of our time who wasn't having his typically "consistent" day."

I'm just disagreeing as he actually did beat himself as far as most people would see from watching that match. Other than that I give him huge credit for a great match. Nadal didn't play that well at all obviously but Andujar handed him the match and did very clearly beat himself the way he gave away the 2 last points so meekly with 2 extremely lame errors. But he's to be commended for the rest of the match.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, but if he was playing against you or me, he'd have won the match. Nadal gets the credit - for having that aura that makes even great players bunch it...

 

[Front242]

Yeah, but if he was playing against you or me, he'd have won the match. Nadal gets the credit - for having that aura that makes even great players bunch it...

I don't agree. I've seen players like him get to match point often and make those same errors against any opponent. It's just lack of focus. Even if you want to dwell on aura, that doesn't change the fact that he lost it with those 2 errors and Nadal didn't have to hit 2 winners to win the match.

 

[Moxie]

Nah, Andujar is nothing more than a journeyman player who just like the others when they play 1st strike tennis typically come up on the short end of the stick against Rafa. Andujar didnt beat himself, he just played against probably the most consistent player of our time who wasn't having his typically "consistent" day. If you model your game after they types like Blake and Gonzo, you are gonna have about the same amount of grand slam titles as they do.

I think Andujar played a rather unusual match for him. I wouldn't compare him to Blake or Gonzo. He had a game plan for Nadal and he executed. It's true that he's been rather 'third tier' amongst the Spaniards in the top 100, but he played a very fine match, with guts and aggression, and almost got rewarded for it. He says it was the best match he's ever played.

Yeah, but if he was playing against you or me, he'd have won the match. Nadal gets the credit - for having that aura that makes even great players bunch it...

I don't agree. I've seen players like him get to match point often and make those same errors against any opponent. It's just lack of focus. Even if you want to dwell on aura, that doesn't change the fact that he lost it with those 2 errors and Nadal didn't have to hit 2 winners to win the match.

Sure, it was lack of focus, and I don't think it was "aura" on that day. Andujar seemed committed to ignoring that. However, I think that playing Nadal (and the other top guys) over a long match is exhausting, mentally and physically. Andujar had no point of reference for where he was at the end of that match, and Nadal had many. But I agree that it was down to 2 points in a TB, and it could have gone either way. I just hope that Pablo takes a lot of confidence from how he played, and makes strides going forward.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

How many points did Nadal donate in the first set? Or 3rd? I recall him donating a break back in fact, after breaking at to make it 4-3 in the final set. Maybe it's time people start looking at these things both ways.

 

[calitennis127]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

How many points did Nadal donate in the first set? Or 3rd? I recall him donating a break back in fact, after breaking at to make it 4-3 in the final set. Maybe it's time people start looking at these things both ways.

Likewise, it may be time for you to start pondering why there is this widespread pattern of so many tennis observers feeling as though Nadal's opponents (in the tighter matches) appear to lose matches against Nadal more than Nadal wins them.

And I am saying this as someone who thinks Front is short-changing Nadal in his assessment of the tiebreak against Andujar, as my earlier comments indicate.

 

[Front242]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

How many points did Nadal donate in the first set? Or 3rd? I recall him donating a break back in fact, after breaking at to make it 4-3 in the final set. Maybe it's time people start looking at these things both ways.

Calm down bro, I already said the highlighted part above and in another post I said clearly Nadal wasn't playing that well obviously They both donated equal amounts of slop but I was merely saying the last 2 points which ended the match were actually errors from Andujar and Nadal didn't have to win either of those 2 points to win the match.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

What two winners?

Keep in mind that Nadal had one winner in the entire 1st set.

 

[calitennis127]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

What two winners?

Keep in mind that Nadal had one winner in the entire 1st set.

That is not a significant stat for Nadal, because that's just not how he plays.

 

[Front242]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

What two winners?

Keep in mind that Nadal had one winner in the entire 1st set.

I said he didn't win those 2 last points by virtue of winners, they were both errors by Andujar.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Sorry but Andujar was the one who reached match point first and it was total lack of focus that caused those 2 poor errors as opposed to anything else. Andujar knows this and so does everyone who watched the match. I never thought he'd win but he did beat himself. Nadal didn't win by 2 points he won with winners, but by 2 points Andujar donated like a dirty old man in a sperm bank.

What two winners?

Keep in mind that Nadal had one winner in the entire 1st set.

I said he didn't win those 2 last points by virtue of winners, they were both errors by Andujar.

I was being sarcastic bro.

 

[Front242]

^ :lolz: It's 3:30am here, so forgive me

 

[GameSetAndMath]

OK. Before lot of people on this forum gang up on me, let me provide further
explanation. I am not claiming that Nadal wins simply because other players are
making unforced errors. Nobody can get to the upper echelons of tennis if they
simply depended exclusively on that.

Contrary to what Kieran and Moxie may say, it is not because
of some weird way of counting. Indeed, they do count gently tapping a ball into
open court as a winner. I also agree that there is some flxibility in what you define
a winner as. My defintion would be that a winner is a shot to which the opponent
simply does not stand a chance in returning the ball back to you. But, whatever
the definition may be, I believe they do apply the definition consistently to both
players in a match. In other words, there is no conspiracy out there to make Rafa
look bad.

If you look at the stats of most Nadal matches, you will notice that he has
very few winners. Contrary to what Kieran and Moxie may say, it is not because
of some weird way of counting. Indeed, they do count gently tapping a ball into
open court as a winner. I also agree that there is some flxibility in what you define
a winner as. But, whatever the definition may be, I believe they do apply the
definition consistently to both players in a match. In other words, there is
no conspiracy out there to make Rafa look bad. However, to compensate for that he will also have very few
unforced errors. Typically, his opponent would have large number of winners
and also large number of unforced errors. Also, typically Rafa would come out
ahead in the net value of (Winners - Unforced Errors) count. After all, that is
what matters. But, interestingly in the match against Andujar Rafa did not
even come out ahead on that differential. That actually, brings into the
foreground what is often never mentioned explicitly (although I guess most
would know that).

A majority of points won by Rafa in a typical watch are won by opponents
making FORCED ERRORS. While, I have not done a formal analysis of Rafa's
stats, my guess would be that Rafa probably earns about 50% of his points
by forced errors of opponents, 25% of his points by unforced errors of his
opponents and 25% of his points by winners (individual matches may vary
and I am talking here about the long term stats).

Finally, I would like to venture a guess that nobody in the entire ATP
would have as much share of his points coming from forced errors as
Rafa does. That consistent heavy top-spin forehand shots repeatedly
coming at the opponent, eventually makes the opponent commit an
error, which I guess should be classified as a forced error.

I thought I would put this theory out which would explain as to
why Rafa's winners count is typically low. It is because his forced error
count would be extremely high.