Rafa vs. Monfils

[britbox]

Right on point -

Could anyone imagine a French athlete (for better and for worse) ever doing something like what Richard Sherman just did on (inter)national TV after making a game-winning play against San Francisco?

Please, let's be honest. Britbox and Broken? Please, be honest.

Moxie - if you can stomach this, go ahead and watch it. I doubt you will absorb it very well.

Just 28 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjOkTib5eVQ

For me personally, while I think very highly of Sherman as a player, for him to go at Crabtree like this was very low and reprehensible. Crabtree is a great player; he is no fraud and does not deserve to be ridiculed like that. Before Sherman's tip, Crabtree had made a couple great plays on the last drive, and Sherman's tip had more to do with Kaepernick's throw than Crabtree failing to make the catch.

I might be reading you all wrong, but you appear to think that acting like a jerk is a display of toughness... you even mentioned Youhzny trashing his racquet with his head earlier... A sign of weakness, not strength IMO.

I don't see Sherman's ranting as being relevant to your argument, but on a side note, I'm not sure Zidane would have stood for that drivel...

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjWi663kXc[/video]

 

[calitennis127]

Well, although Broken just provided a very good background explanation on the success of French soccer, I am by no means convinced that French soccer players don't exhibit some of the traits that can be seen in their tennis players. Broken and I both watch tennis, and we frequently disagree. If I watched soccer, I may very well have a different opinion on how or why the French soccer teams have succeeded.

In other words: "I don't know enough about the topic, and if I did, I'd probably disagree even though all evidence points to the contrary."

Yeah, just as all the "evidence" points to Nadal being unplayable in that 3rd set comeback against Djokovic, right?:lolz:

No. In this case the evidence is far stronger, not subjective, and cannot be refuted.

Well, teams/individuals can win for a variety of reasons, and also, just because the French soccer players demonstrated these tough characteristics on some occasions doesn't mean that on others they didn't.

Like I said, there are two sides (good and bad) to so many things. There are two sides to the French mentality, two sides to the American mentality, etc. You and Britbox cannot accept this entirely reasonable position, and will not stop until I contradict reality by stating "The mental disposition of French tennis players has absolutely nothing to do with the culture they have lived in their whole lives".

Sorry guys, I just can't say it. Sorry.

 

[calitennis127]

Right on point -

Could anyone imagine a French athlete (for better and for worse) ever doing something like what Richard Sherman just did on (inter)national TV after making a game-winning play against San Francisco?

Please, let's be honest. Britbox and Broken? Please, be honest.

Moxie - if you can stomach this, go ahead and watch it. I doubt you will absorb it very well.

Just 28 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjOkTib5eVQ

For me personally, while I think very highly of Sherman as a player, for him to go at Crabtree like this was very low and reprehensible. Crabtree is a great player; he is no fraud and does not deserve to be ridiculed like that. Before Sherman's tip, Crabtree had made a couple great plays on the last drive, and Sherman's tip had more to do with Kaepernick's throw than Crabtree failing to make the catch.

NFL culture is different and we know that. So what does this prove exactly?

Nothing at all. It is just one individual with no connection to any influences whatsoever.

What trait does it show Thierry Henry oozed confidence, even arrogance. For a French player to be as accepted as he was, turn into a team leader, and an icon of a London-based club against all odds speaks volumes as to the man's mental toughness and character. What's your point?

That an American athlete is no more likely to act that way than a French athlete. This is clearly an enlightened position on the matter.

Clearly.

Wait so now your argument is Americans and French people are different? REVOLUTIONARY INFORMATION!

For you, it apparently is, because you have been denying it this entire conversation.

I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence about how historically, French athletes have been the way you described them. But no, keep bringing up irrelevant stuff and drowning further. It's entertaining to watch.

Oh wait, so information on six different modern tennis careers doesn't qualify as "historical"? The numerous matches I have watched of Monfils, Tsonga, Gasquet, Simon, etc. qualifies as irrelevant and meaningless (not to mention some of the French female matches I have watched)?

You want me to start referencing competitions from 1950 for you? Sorry, I can't do that.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Well, although Broken just provided a very good background explanation on the success of French soccer, I am by no means convinced that French soccer players don't exhibit some of the traits that can be seen in their tennis players. Broken and I both watch tennis, and we frequently disagree. If I watched soccer, I may very well have a different opinion on how or why the French soccer teams have succeeded.

In other words: "I don't know enough about the topic, and if I did, I'd probably disagree even though all evidence points to the contrary."

Yeah, just as all the "evidence" points to Nadal being unplayable in that 3rd set comeback against Djokovic, right?:lolz:

No. In this case the evidence is far stronger, not subjective, and cannot be refuted.

Well, teams/individuals can win for a variety of reasons, and also, just because the French soccer players demonstrated these tough characteristics on some occasions doesn't mean that on others they didn't.

But you're absolutely clueless about whether the above happened or not because you know nothing of Soccer, so how are you even making this argument?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Right on point -

Could anyone imagine a French athlete (for better and for worse) ever doing something like what Richard Sherman just did on (inter)national TV after making a game-winning play against San Francisco?

Please, let's be honest. Britbox and Broken? Please, be honest.

Moxie - if you can stomach this, go ahead and watch it. I doubt you will absorb it very well.

Just 28 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjOkTib5eVQ

For me personally, while I think very highly of Sherman as a player, for him to go at Crabtree like this was very low and reprehensible. Crabtree is a great player; he is no fraud and does not deserve to be ridiculed like that. Before Sherman's tip, Crabtree had made a couple great plays on the last drive, and Sherman's tip had more to do with Kaepernick's throw than Crabtree failing to make the catch.

NFL culture is different and we know that. So what does this prove exactly?

Nothing at all. It is just one individual with no connection to any influences whatsoever.

What trait does it show Thierry Henry oozed confidence, even arrogance. For a French player to be as accepted as he was, turn into a team leader, and an icon of a London-based club against all odds speaks volumes as to the man's mental toughness and character. What's your point?

That an American athlete is no more likely to act that way than a French athlete. This is clearly an enlightened position on the matter.

Clearly.

Wait so now your argument is Americans and French people are different? REVOLUTIONARY INFORMATION!

For you, it apparently is, because you have been denying it this entire conversation.

I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence about how historically, French athletes have been the way you described them. But no, keep bringing up irrelevant stuff and drowning further. It's entertaining to watch.

Oh wait, so information on six different modern tennis careers doesn't qualify as "historical"? The numerous matches I have watched of Monfils, Tsonga, Gasquet, Simon, etc. qualifies as irrelevant and meaningless (not to mention some of the French female matches I have watched)?

You want me to start referencing competitions from 1950 for you? Sorry, I can't do that.

You think one generation of tennis players (none of them happen to be elite, even talent wise, except MAYBE Tsonga) trounces a nation's entire sporting history, which you know nothing about? OK...

 

[calitennis127]

I might be reading you all wrong, but you appear to think that acting like a jerk is a display of toughness... you even mentioned Youhzny trashing his racquet with his head earlier... A sign of weakness, not strength IMO.

Well, in that you are reflecting the cultural conservatism of most tennis aficionados.

I see it as two-sided. I value self-control and discipline, but occasional outbursts also indicate passion, emphatic desire to excel, perfectionism, and willingness to go to extreme lengths to succeed. When Murray has done his screaming on court, it has been ugly and comical at times, but it also shows his love for tennis and his desire to be the best and to maximize his potential. That cannot be disconnected from the fact that he has had the success he has had.

And didn't Broken bring up Jordan's jerk-like behavior as part of his personality and why he got to the top as he did? And didn't you and everyone else agree with that?

But I guess now you are saying that Michael Jordan was just very weak mentally because of that quality.

I don't see Sherman's ranting as being relevant to your argument

Then you have to be oblivious. It reflected the hyper-masculine, ultra-aggressive hip hop culture that predominates in the NFL (and the NBA, more so 10 years ago than now). This attitude is distinctively American. It originated here and it has been popularized here.

but on a side note, I'm not sure Zidane would have stood for that drivel...

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjWi663kXc[/video]

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

Richard Sherman would maul that guy, as would any player on the Seahawks defense. You have to be kidding.

If you think that little headbutt compares to the hyper-masculine aggression of the NFL and high major college football, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Consider these examples.

Jadeveon Clowney against Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM

Andre Johnson v. Cortland Finnegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT6MygnKKw

One of the current Patriots RBs when he was in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzcFbtJEvwo

 

[calitennis127]

In other words: "I don't know enough about the topic, and if I did, I'd probably disagree even though all evidence points to the contrary."

Yeah, just as all the "evidence" points to Nadal being unplayable in that 3rd set comeback against Djokovic, right?:lolz:

No. In this case the evidence is far stronger, not subjective, and cannot be refuted.

Well, teams/individuals can win for a variety of reasons, and also, just because the French soccer players demonstrated these tough characteristics on some occasions doesn't mean that on others they didn't.

But you're absolutely clueless about whether the above happened or not because you know nothing of Soccer, so how are you even making this argument?

I am saying that this is very possible based on having followed numerous other sports for years. Duh.

 

[calitennis127]

You think one generation of tennis players (none of them happen to be elite, even talent wise, except MAYBE Tsonga) trounces a nation's entire sporting history, which you know nothing about? OK...

No, I don't think it "trounces" a nation's entire sporting history, but I also don't think it is completely irrelevant either. One generation of tennis players is significant and very telling.

Do you have a problem with me drawing conclusions from "just one" generation of American tennis players (conclusions which I know to be true from having lived in the USA, no less)? I would hope not.

And one generation is actually pretty significant. Historians draw conclusions about generations of people in societes, but I can't draw any conclusions based on a generation of athletes? I guess I am not allowed to notice or look for patterns.

In case you didn't read it, I clearly laid out how the personalities/dispositions of American and Argentinean players reflect their cultural backgrounds as well. I am not strictly singling out the French.

 

[brokenshoelace]

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

Richard Sherman would maul that guy, as would any player on the Seahawks defense. You have to be kidding.

If you think that little headbutt compares to the hyper-masculine aggression of the NFL and high major college football, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Consider these examples.

Jadeveon Clowney against Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM

Andre Johnson v. Cortland Finnegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT6MygnKKw

One of the current Patriots RBs when he was in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzcFbtJEvwo

An NFL player would maul a soccer player! Alert the police! What does that have to do with anything? Guess what, an NFL player would maul Nadal too... I guess that means he's a wimp and a mental midget.

 

[calitennis127]

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

Richard Sherman would maul that guy, as would any player on the Seahawks defense. You have to be kidding.

If you think that little headbutt compares to the hyper-masculine aggression of the NFL and high major college football, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Consider these examples.

Jadeveon Clowney against Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM

Andre Johnson v. Cortland Finnegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT6MygnKKw

One of the current Patriots RBs when he was in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzcFbtJEvwo

An NFL player would maul a soccer player! Alert the police! What does that have to do with anything? Guess what, an NFL player would maul Nadal too... I guess that means he's a wimp and a mental midget.

If you are looking at it strictly as a matter of bench press and physical strength, and you don't recognize the difference in attitude/mentality between a snarky little headbutt and the NFL players' ultra-aggressive mentality (especially as represented in the links I provided), then there is literally nothing that can be said to you. You simply struggle to understand what you are observing.

 

[brokenshoelace]

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

Richard Sherman would maul that guy, as would any player on the Seahawks defense. You have to be kidding.

If you think that little headbutt compares to the hyper-masculine aggression of the NFL and high major college football, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Consider these examples.

Jadeveon Clowney against Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM

Andre Johnson v. Cortland Finnegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT6MygnKKw

One of the current Patriots RBs when he was in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzcFbtJEvwo

An NFL player would maul a soccer player! Alert the police! What does that have to do with anything? Guess what, an NFL player would maul Nadal too... I guess that means he's a wimp and a mental midget.

If you are looking at it strictly as a matter of bench press and physical strength, and you don't recognize the difference in attitude/mentality between a snarky little headbutt and the NFL players' ultra-aggressive mentality (especially as represented in the links I provided), then there is literally nothing that can be said to you. You simply struggle to understand what you are observing.

Except you know nothing of Zidane, his mental toughness his upbringing, his rise to the top, his clutch play, his ability to handle pressure on and off the court (being a cultural icon for example), rise to the occasion when it matters, stay the best for about 10 years, excel even at 34 years of age... Dude, to even mention these two in the same breath (him and Sherman), be it when it comes to attitude, mental toughness, accomplishments, etc.. is insane. You're talking about something you know nothing of.

 

[britbox]

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

Richard Sherman would maul that guy, as would any player on the Seahawks defense. You have to be kidding.

If you think that little headbutt compares to the hyper-masculine aggression of the NFL and high major college football, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Consider these examples.

Jadeveon Clowney against Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM

Andre Johnson v. Cortland Finnegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT6MygnKKw

One of the current Patriots RBs when he was in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzcFbtJEvwo

An NFL player would maul a soccer player! Alert the police! What does that have to do with anything? Guess what, an NFL player would maul Nadal too... I guess that means he's a wimp and a mental midget.

If you are looking at it strictly as a matter of bench press and physical strength, and you don't recognize the difference in attitude/mentality between a snarky little headbutt and the NFL players' ultra-aggressive mentality (especially as represented in the links I provided), then there is literally nothing that can be said to you. You simply struggle to understand what you are observing.

Likewise, you don't seem to recognise that shooting your mouth off doesn't equate to mental strength. You'll get some elites who shoot off and some that don't... and and you'll get lesser players who shoot off and don't match their mouth with deeds.

Don't recall guys like Rod Woodson and Ronnie Lott ever being that classless after a game yet they were as tough as teak.

I'm not against trash talking by the way - I've always been a bit of talker when playing sports myself, but there is a time and a place and Sherman's interview was about as classless as you get.

 

[Goldenboy]

cali, did you watch Zidane's headbutt video above? Is that not French culture?

I would also recommend you read into what the French did during their colonial days. Nothing feminine about it.

 

[calitennis127]

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

Richard Sherman would maul that guy, as would any player on the Seahawks defense. You have to be kidding.

If you think that little headbutt compares to the hyper-masculine aggression of the NFL and high major college football, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Consider these examples.

Jadeveon Clowney against Michigan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC44nP7ClxM

Andre Johnson v. Cortland Finnegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT6MygnKKw

One of the current Patriots RBs when he was in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzcFbtJEvwo

An NFL player would maul a soccer player! Alert the police! What does that have to do with anything? Guess what, an NFL player would maul Nadal too... I guess that means he's a wimp and a mental midget.

If you are looking at it strictly as a matter of bench press and physical strength, and you don't recognize the difference in attitude/mentality between a snarky little headbutt and the NFL players' ultra-aggressive mentality (especially as represented in the links I provided), then there is literally nothing that can be said to you. You simply struggle to understand what you are observing.

Except you know nothing of Zidane, his mental toughness his upbringing, his rise to the top, his clutch play, his ability to handle pressure on and off the court (being a cultural icon for example), rise to the occasion when it matters, stay the best for about 10 years, excel even at 34 years of age...Dude, to even mention these two in the same breath (him and Sherman), be it when it comes to attitude, mental toughness, accomplishments, etc.. is insane. You're talking about something you know nothing of.

Yeah, I am sure there are just as many French athletes who demonstrate the hyper-masculine aggression you see in the NFL and NBA. Without question.

No difference in mentality at all except that one group is just randomly called "American" and the other is randomly called "French".

What is also so pathetic about this whole conversation is that literally nothing was done in this conversation to show how the numerous prominent French tennis players a) aren't mentally weaker than most of their competition, and b) are not at all a little softer than their competition as a result of the cultural environment they grew up in.

Nothing was done to that end, except listing a couple soccer players to someone who doesn't follow soccer. That said, I do know that Broken is completely inept when it comes to analyzing tennis players' psyche (I have said this for years), so by no means can I trust his analysis of soccer players' psychology. I am sure he is off the mark on plenty of it.

But, ultimately, this is a tennis board and a tennis discussion. When it comes to the current crop of French tennis players, no one has rationally engaged my argument or done the slightest to refute it.

 

[calitennis127]

Likewise, you don't seem to recognise that shooting your mouth off doesn't equate to mental strength.

Let me re-quote what I said earlier, since you either missed it or ignored it:

1) "For me personally, while I think very highly of Sherman as a player, for him to go at Crabtree like this was very low and reprehensible. Crabtree is a great player; he is no fraud and does not deserve to be ridiculed like that. Before Sherman's tip, Crabtree had made a couple great plays on the last drive, and Sherman's tip had more to do with Kaepernick's throw than Crabtree failing to make the catch."

2) "I see it as two-sided. I value self-control and discipline, but occasional outbursts also indicate passion, emphatic desire to excel, perfectionism, and willingness to go to extreme lengths to succeed. When Murray has done his screaming on court, it has been ugly and comical at times, but it also shows his love for tennis and his desire to be the best and to maximize his potential. That cannot be disconnected from the fact that he has had the success he has had."

To directly relate this to your last statement - I do think that in a sense people who shoot their mouths off do have a bit more mental strength, in the sense that they are probably more emphatic and more passionate about what they do.

Don't recall guys like Rod Woodson and Ronnie Lott ever being that classless after a game yet they were as tough as teak.

I don't deny this and I have never said it isn't possible.

I'm not against trash talking by the way - I've always been a bit of talker when playing sports myself, but there is a time and a place and Sherman's interview was about as classless as you get.

I agree that it was ill-timed and inappropriate. But, to be specific about it, I don't think Crabtree is a player who deserves that kind of ridicule. I don't care if he really got under Sherman's skin with some comments. He is still a great player and if you're Sherman you can reserve the personal feuding for back channels that are readily available.

 

[calitennis127]

cali, did you watch Zidane's headbutt video above? Is that not French culture?

I did watch it, and in case you didn't notice, I found it funny if you're comparing it to American sports. Did you watch the three videos I posted?

Also, one point I made very clearly early on is that I don't think the French are 100% soft in every way. It is silly to take my comments that way. I just made a point that in general they are softer than their competition.

I mean, for someone like Monfils - as athletically gifted as he is - to lose two sets on a medium-paced hardcourt to Nadal by a score of 6-1, 6-2? Are you kidding me? And this happens 1 round before Kei Nishikori (not anywhere close to being the athlete that Monfils is) dictates many rallies against Nadal and plays three very tight sets?

Any rational mind would question Monfils' psychology and the culture that bred it.

Could you imagine an American player having Monfils' physical gifts and ever allowing himself to be utterly dominated by Nadal like that? If you put the mentality of Roddick, Fish, or even Isner inside of Monfils' body (let alone Serena's), there is NO WAY the score line turns out like that. Not a chance. I challenge anyone to dispute that.

Likewise, could you ever imagine Roddick/Fish/Serena (or even Isner) having Tsonga's physical gifts and bowing out as pitifully as he did in his home country's Slam, in a semifinal, last year against Ferrer?

I'm sorry but that was a great example of French weakness at the highest level of competition.

I would also recommend you read into what the French did during their colonial days. Nothing feminine about it.

Big deal, they did what every other Western nation did - exploited a civilization that could not stand up to it.

But more to the point, I never said the French were weak and effete in every conceivable way. I just said that when it comes to the ultra-intense competition of sports (particularly tennis) at the highest levels, they do in general lack toughness that players from other nations exhibit. I stand by that, based on what I have observed in tennis and basketball for years.

 

[Moxie]

That's really enough, Cali. You weren't just deriding a current crop of tennis players who happen to be from France, you were deriding the entire French culture as unable to produce butch enough players to compete well in tennis. Absolutely everyone took offense at that. Please don't embarrass yourself, or these boards, any further by trying to defend your position. Especially because everyone knows you're just mad that Monfils didn't beat Nadal.

 

[calitennis127]

That's really enough, Cali. You weren't just deriding a current crop of tennis players who happen to be from France, you were deriding the entire French culture as unable to produce butch enough players to compete well in tennis.

Not compete well in general, but compete well at the highest level, yes.

And what was done to refute that? Just "oh Cali, you may be right about the current French players, but please don't be so unpleasant".

I'd love for anyone to explain how what I said about Roddick/Fish/Serena v. Tsonga & Monfils wasn't valid. I doubt though that my comments there will get a direct response, because, you know, that is just too rational a point to warrant a reply. Feelings are more important than reason evidently.

 

[Moxie]

That's really enough, Cali. You weren't just deriding a current crop of tennis players who happen to be from France, you were deriding the entire French culture as unable to produce butch enough players to compete well in tennis.

Not compete well in general, but compete well at the highest level, yes.

And what was done to refute that? Just "oh Cali, you may be right about the current French players, but please don't be so unpleasant".

I'd love for anyone to explain how what I said about Roddick/Fish/Serena v. Tsonga & Monfils wasn't valid. I doubt though that my comments there will get a direct response, because, you know, that is just too rational a point to warrant a reply. Feelings are more important than reason evidently.

If you want to talk about the current crop of French players, fine, as to their playing, but not their being French as a contributing factor. You cloud the argument by making it cultural, which is unnecessary, and way off base. As you say, there are plenty of players from the US or other countries that you could have the same beef with. Just leave off the "Frenchness," which is offensive, and where you are way out of your depth.

 

[britbox]

zzzz... French participants in other disciplines have already been given who are more than able to compete at the highest level refuting your argument that it's because they are french.