Question to Fed fans - Is there anything Fed can do to get back his legacy?

[Bonaca]

Every selective sign about Nadal has already been covered by Front in this thread so what's the point of rehashing? My whole response was to Front in order to show that the same way he's being selective about Nadal, anyone can be selective about anyone, including Roger and Novak (I mean he went from a wimp who would retire at the first sign of adversity to a cardio machine in the span of like 3 months).

Also, Nadal is not a muscle machine. This seems like it stuck to him since his pirate days where his biceps were showing. His chest and abs are nothing special. That said, if this is what you're looking for to understand if an athlete is doping or not, you don't know much about doping. This isn't pro wrestling or body building.

And they all dope. Nobody wants to believe that because it's uncomfortable but whatever.

PS: Roger's style being proof of non doping is a very simplistic outlook. It implies that only those with physical styles dope and that's just ludicrous.

I'm with you about doping, they all do in maybe every sport. Waste of time to discuss it.
Let’s face that and talk about the best mutant of them.
Response to Front, I didn’t get that and didn’t want to get into it.
Don’t get me wrong, nobody’s style is proofed of non doping. I said For Roger and his style of play it’s easier to maintain a high level of tennis, than Novak or Nadal in higher age.
I don’t know your professional background about doping, I have no personal experiance. Only a professional medical background.
I didn’t say only visible muscles are suspicious for doping, but asking the majority whose looking and playing style is the most suspicious, I think most will say Nadals.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Also, you can dissect Roger's game all you want but fact is an athlete at his age, playing tennis no less, is typically NOT this fit and doesn't look nearly as good practicing their sport (I mean aesthetically, his game still looks like he's in his early 30's).

I'm not accusing him of anything but to just turn a blind eye to that while throwing baseless accusations based on other arbitrary criteria is ridiculous. I can easily claim he looked done in 2016, took a long hiatus, then came back looking like Superman (which he did in early 2017, where he survived 3 marathons at the AO).

Now, I've always said they all dope (baseless accusation, but I firmly believe it), but if we're going to selectively look at signs, then there's no way you can conveniently ignore the above.

Let us forget about "selective signs". Let us look at the actual things the players have done.

Novak indulged in recovery by sitting pressurized eggs . It was actually legal at the time Novak used it and I believe it is now banned.

Ralph came back to winning ways in 2013 and a lot of it is attributable to PRP for knee rehabilitation.. Again, it was legal at the time Ralph indulged it, although it was banned before that.

So, clearly (this is not a subjective opinion, but based on facts shown above) both Novak and Ralph are at the fringe. While what they did are technically legal, they are at the edge.

On the other hand, I don't think any of you can show anything Roger has ever done (with facts) that even looks shady.

This is a totally different line of argument and not based on looks of muscles etc.

 

[Moxie]

He works out more than any other player in the history.

You say the above, referring to Nadal. I've heard similar claims made about the incredible amount that Rafa works out, all of them made on forums by civilians. It IS generally known that he works hard in practice, and practices longer than, say, Roger, but I don't know what basis anyone has to say that Rafa works out an especial lot, particularly "more than any other player in history." Seems a bit much. And to what point?

 

[Bonaca]

You say the above, referring to Nadal. I've heard similar claims made about the incredible amount that Rafa works out, all of them made on forums by civilians. It IS generally known that he works hard in practice, and practices longer than, say, Roger, but I don't know what basis anyone has to say that Rafa works out an especial lot, particularly "more than any other player in history." Seems a bit much. And to what point?

Ok maybe „any other player“ is two much. Meant especially in comparison to Roger and Novak.
My point is, that he has to work that hard to reach and more important maintain his ultra high level of physical play style to fight the other two. I think he depends the most on this hard Training, meaning he has to compensate the lack of talent, compared to the other two.

 

[Moxie]

Ok maybe „any other player“ is two much. Meant especially in comparison to Roger and Novak.
My point is, that he has to work that hard to reach and more important maintain his ultra high level of physical play style to fight the other two. I think he depends the most on this hard Training, meaning he has to compensate the lack of talent, compared to the other two.

Forgive me, but I don't think that anything in that post indicates you know what you're talking about in terms of their relative training levels/talents.

 

[Ricardo]

Forgive me, but I don't think that anything in that post indicates you know what you're talking about in terms of their relative training levels/talents.

He said in comparison to Roger and Novak, it’s generally accepted that Roger is most talented, then Novak then Rafa, who is still obviously extremely talented.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

He said in comparison to Roger and Novak, it’s generally accepted that Roger is most talented, then Novak then Rafa, who is still obviously extremely talented.

I'd say that Rafa is by far the most talented, then it's a tie for 2nd place between Roger & Novak. The latter 2 are more about the technique while Rafa is all about the talent.

Like McEnroe once said, "Rafael Nadal is the Leonardo Da Vinci of tennis".

 

[Moxie]

He said in comparison to Roger and Novak, it’s generally accepted that Roger is most talented, then Novak then Rafa, who is still obviously extremely talented.

Understood. I don't accept that Novak is massively more talented than Rafa (which no one has said,) but my point is that I don't think Rafa trains hard in compensation for anything. I think he has a different mindset about training than some. I have no idea how much Novak trains. But my original response to Bonaca was his notion that Nadal does a lot of weight-lifting, which I think is a common misconception, and gets tossed around as a true-ism. But he copped to that.

And again, we get back to the notion of what "talent" is.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Let us forget about "selective signs". Let us look at the actual things the players have done.

Novak indulged in recovery by sitting pressurized eggs . It was actually legal at the time Novak used it and I believe it is now banned.

Ralph came back to winning ways in 2013 and a lot of it is attributable to PRP for knee rehabilitation.. Again, it was legal at the time Ralph indulged it, although it was banned before that.

So, clearly (this is not a subjective opinion, but based on facts shown above) both Novak and Ralph are at the fringe. While what they did are technically legal, they are at the edge.

On the other hand, I don't think any of you can show anything Roger has ever done (with facts) that even looks shady.

This is a totally different line of argument and not based on looks of muscles etc.

What about doing something legal makes someone "on the fringe"? If it's legal it's legal. It got outlawed later, so to retroactively use that as a potential red flag is really odd.

 

[Bonaca]

He said in comparison to Roger and Novak, it’s generally accepted that Roger is most talented, then Novak then Rafa, who is still obviously extremely talented.

Thanks for translation. That was exactly my point.

 

[Front242]

What about doing something legal makes someone "on the fringe"? If it's legal it's legal. It got outlawed later, so to retroactively use that as a potential red flag is really odd.

The issue with PRP has always been that it's possible for unscrupulous doctors to inject IGF1 growth factors to speed up recovery and these are also very much performance enhancing and banned. It's no secret then to note that Nadal's two best seasons in 2010 and 2013 came after said PRP treatments. His doctor is also a shady dude who used to be involved in anti doping controls (changed the job title on his web page years ago 'cos it read basically like doctor for helping athletes to not test positive) and worked with the Catalan cycling federation and Spanish Olympic team.

Doesn't take a genius to realize that both of those are rife with doping and he even looks like a shady fucker.

http://www.medabcn.com/doctors/cotorro

You made a point many times that you think they all dope, but let's be real here. Some stand out a lot more than others when you read the above, for example.

 

[Bonaca]

Understood. I don't accept that Novak is massively more talented than Rafa (which no one has said,) but my point is that I don't think Rafa trains hard in compensation for anything. I think he has a different mindset about training than some. I have no idea how much Novak trains. But my original response to Bonaca was his notion that Nadal does a lot of weight-lifting, which I think is a common misconception, and gets tossed around as a true-ism. But he copped to that.

And again, we get back to the notion of what "talent" is.

Sorry moxie, but I don’t know where you get that from. I wrote hard training, not weight lifting. Spent more time on training court and having more training sessions over and over again, that’s my point.
And yes my opinion is that this is essential for him against an in form Roger or Novak to have a chance beating them. There are not big differences in talent between them, but this for me seems to be a kind of compansation to close that gap.

 

[brokenshoelace]

The issue with PRP has always been that it's possible for unscrupulous doctors to inject IGF1 growth factors to speed up recovery and these are also very much performance enhancing and banned. It's no secret then to note that Nadal's two best seasons in 2010 and 2013 came after said PRP treatments. His doctor is also a shady dude who used to be involved in anti doping controls (changed the job title on his web page years ago 'cos it read basically like doctor for helping athletes to not test positive) and worked with the Catalan cycling federation and Spanish Olympic team.

Doesn't take a genius to realize that both of those are rife with doping and he even looks like a shady fucker.

http://www.medabcn.com/doctors/cotorro

You made a point many times that you think they all dope, but let's be real here. Some stand out a lot more than others when you read the above, for example.

No shit they're performance enhancing. Everything these athletes are taking is meant to enhance performance. But if it's legal, it's legal. As far as Nadal's "best" seasons, the guy reaches major finals and wins majors for fun like...every year. It's funny that you're trying to correlate his two best seasons with potential PED use...I mean, if he had so much success because of that, why didn't he undergo similar "treatment" in other seasons? Also, yes, a doctor can inject you with IGF1 growth hormones. The same way doctors can give you plenty of magical stuff... Except, I don't think players would run around broadcasting that so speculating as to who is on something and who isn't is useless.

So could it be that you, like anyone else, have no idea what the fuck these players are on?

And yeah, some do stand out more than others... the most successful tennis player of all time who's still winning and reaching major finals well into his late 30's stands out. The same player who returned from a long layoff looking like Superman at an age where he's not supposed to. He, like his two rivals, stand out more than others.

But yeah, "his doctor looks like a shady dude" is definitely a tremendous argument as to why someone is doping.

 

[Front242]

No shit they're performance enhancing. Everything these athletes are taking is meant to enhance performance. But if it's legal, it's legal. As far as Nadal's "best" seasons, the guy reaches major finals and wins majors for fun like...every year. It's funny that you're trying to correlate his two best seasons with potential PED use...I mean, if he had so much success because of that, why didn't he undergo similar "treatment" in other seasons? Also, yes, a doctor can inject you with IGF1 growth hormones. The same way doctors can give you plenty of magical stuff... Except, I don't think players would run around broadcasting that so speculating as to who is on something and who isn't is useless.

So could it be that you, like anyone else, have no idea what the fuck these players are on?

And yeah, some do stand out more than others... the most successful tennis player of all time who's still winning and reaching major finals well into his late 30's stands out. The same player who returned from a long layoff looking like Superman at an age where he's not supposed to. He, like his two rivals, stand out more than others.

But yeah, "his doctor looks like a shady dude" is definitely a tremendous argument as to why someone is doping.

I'm at work and don't have time to answer further but nice try to attempt to deflect from the obvious. Saying he even looks shady is hardly the main thing about his doctor and I already posted a link showing who he has worked with in the past and who he currently works with and it's pretty damn dodgy.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

No shit they're performance enhancing. Everything these athletes are taking is meant to enhance performance. But if it's legal, it's legal. As far as Nadal's "best" seasons, the guy reaches major finals and wins majors for fun like...every year. It's funny that you're trying to correlate his two best seasons with potential PED use...I mean, if he had so much success because of that, why didn't he undergo similar "treatment" in other seasons? Also, yes, a doctor can inject you with IGF1 growth hormones. The same way doctors can give you plenty of magical stuff... Except, I don't think players would run around broadcasting that so speculating as to who is on something and who isn't is useless.

So could it be that you, like anyone else, have no idea what the fuck these players are on?

And yeah, some do stand out more than others... the most successful tennis player of all time who's still winning and reaching major finals well into his late 30's stands out. The same player who returned from a long layoff looking like Superman at an age where he's not supposed to. He, like his two rivals, stand out more than others.

But yeah, "his doctor looks like a shady dude" is definitely a tremendous argument as to why someone is doping.

I don't think they have invented doping techniques which makes one hit a drive backhand well instead of always slicing.

 

[Front242]

I don't think they have invented doping techniques which makes one hit a drive backhand well instead of always slicing.

Literally pissing myself inside here laughing at work. So true and this has been brought up before. The Nadal camp are desperate to retaliate with what they think is a doping claim to be made against Federer but, if that's their best effort, it's really clutching at straws. He also has a new racquet with much bigger sweet spot that he didn't get time to properly train with till the time off due to injury in mid 2016. There's the Superman theory debunked right there.

 

[Bonaca]

I don't think they have invented doping techniques which makes one hit a drive backhand well instead of always slicing.

Haha that one was good.
In tennis doping technique is mostly about cardio, strength also but not that useful in tennis.
You can also extend your concentration , is part of the mental issue. Raise of your IQ in view of thinking clearer/ making better and faster decisions under pressure. You know what I mean , you are a numbers guy, so am I. In mathematics the real genius is the one who finds the simple way to describe a complex problem. LSD for example is often used in this sector. Sorry this isn’t the place to talk about that.
What I am trying to say is that there are a lot of ways to manipulate for becoming a better competitor.
I emphasise that’s all theory, nothing proofed. We just talk about that now.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I don't think they have invented doping techniques which makes one hit a drive backhand well instead of always slicing.

Exactly. Which is why I think it's so stupid to automatically equate someone having their best season with PEDs or think that PEDs are a magic potion, as your boy Front seems to suggest.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Literally pissing myself inside here laughing at work. So true and this has been brought up before. The Nadal camp are desperate to retaliate with what they think is a doping claim to be made against Federer but, if that's their best effort, it's really clutching at straws. He also has a new racquet with much bigger sweet spot that he didn't get time to properly train with till the time off due to injury in mid 2016. There's the Superman theory debunked right there.

Way to take a funny post and butcher it with stupidity.

Timing the ball and hitting it clean is but one aspect of things, but you still need footwork, movement and stamina to be sharp enough to do it repeatedly over 12 months, which is what Fed did in 2017...at an age when most tennis players would be washed up and/or retired.

Your view of PED is so narrow and misinformed it's ridiculous: You think physicality = PEDs. Ball striking = no PEDs, as if they're not all related. PEDs help you train harder, push yourself, recover faster, have more endurance, stamina, etc... You don't think all of that would contribute to someone striking the ball better or playing better all around? Striking the ball super well in the fifth set of the AO final despite enduring 2 previous marathons in addition to the third?

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing to accuse Fed of anything. I'm merely arguing to show holes in this very dumb and simplistic logic. GSM's post was funny, but if he meant by it what you seem to have deduced, then it's also a typically simplistic misinformed post, which of course is on brand.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I'm at work and don't have time to answer further but nice try to attempt to deflect from the obvious. Saying he even looks shady is hardly the main thing about his doctor and I already posted a link showing who he has worked with in the past and who he currently works with and it's pretty damn dodgy.

So wait, the doctor is...qualified? That's it?