Novak's Place Among the All-Time Greats

[GameSetAndMath]

I personally think that Novak's 2011 was better than both since he was facing off against a peak level Goat candidate in virtually every final he won. That's my two cents. I think this year has been great, definitely more significant for the records, but I think 2011 Novak would beat 2015 Novak most of the time...

I think so too. I thought Novaks defense in 2011 was just a shade above what he's produced since then. I don't even know if its movement so much as anticipation. He was zoned into every return and he had head starts to every ball he tracked down during the first half of that season.

Imo it was likely the very greatest slow hardcourt level by any player of all time.

...........And it was that Novak that Roger beat in RG. :snicker

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Many players will retire after the olympics so tennis will only get worse imo, not better next year. Which is sad.

The funny thing is that normally after older players retires the state of tennis will improve.
Here it is the reverse.

 

[Front242]

Many players will retire after the olympics so tennis will only get worse imo, not better next year. Which is sad.

The funny thing is that normally after older players retires the state of tennis will improve.
Here it is the reverse.

Yup, the sport will take a major tumble and will lose many viewers such is the pitiful state of the younger generation.

 

[Denis]

I personally think that Novak's 2011 was better than both since he was facing off against a peak level Goat candidate in virtually every final he won. That's my two cents. I think this year has been great, definitely more significant for the records, but I think 2011 Novak would beat 2015 Novak most of the time...

I think so too. I thought Novaks defense in 2011 was just a shade above what he's produced since then. I don't even know if its movement so much as anticipation. He was zoned into every return and he had head starts to every ball he tracked down during the first half of that season.

Imo it was likely the very greatest slow hardcourt level by any player of all time.

...........And it was that Novak that Roger beat in RG. :snicker

Novak was 2-1 against federer in 2011.

 

[DarthFed]

I personally think that Novak's 2011 was better than both since he was facing off against a peak level Goat candidate in virtually every final he won. That's my two cents. I think this year has been great, definitely more significant for the records, but I think 2011 Novak would beat 2015 Novak most of the time...

This is true. But we are comparing fed 2006 to current Novak. There is one poster here that is suggesting that amount of sets lost is more important than amount of titles won, I guess some people will just make up anything to profess their fedal love.

Anyways, your point does nod to the fact that both Roger and Novak 2015 faced less competition than Novak 2011. That being said Novak did win more titles than federer in 2006 and I do think comparatively speaking the competition in 2015 was greater than in 2006. I will see if I can pull out the stats for top 10 wins for both players, that will give us a better idea I think.

Roger of 2006 had a ton better winning % and won 12 titles overall. Where Nole can edge him is if he wins the YEC and at least 1 more MS. As for competition it is subjective. Again it bears mention that a 34 year old on his last legs has been the main competition this year. Rafa has been irrelevant this year and that just leaves the semi-great Murray and Wawrinka. Compare that to 2006 when Rafa was already outstanding on clay and it is debatable which field is tougher.

 

[kskate2]

I personally think that Novak's 2011 was better than both since he was facing off against a peak level Goat candidate in virtually every final he won. That's my two cents. I think this year has been great, definitely more significant for the records, but I think 2011 Novak would beat 2015 Novak most of the time...

Agreed. His form was at a different (higher) level in 2011. Which isn't really saying much because he still won 3 majors and is dominating the tour this year.

 

[Carol]

I agree that Novak was outstanding in 2011 when there were a good competition, Rafa playing well, Federer four years younger, Berdych, Ferru, Tsonga and Monfils also were playing better than now
2015? I can't say the same about all of them

 

[Denis]

Djokovic has 30 top 10 wins since US Open last year, Fed only had 18 in 2006.

Comparing the list it is rather obvious that Djokovic's resume is a whole lot better.

Djokovic:

118. Bulgaria Grigor Dimitrov 10 Beijing, China Hard QF 6–2, 6–4
119. Czech Republic Tomáš Berdych 6 Beijing, China Hard F 6–0, 6–2
120. Spain David Ferrer 5 Shanghai, China Hard QF 6–4, 6–2
121. United Kingdom Andy Murray 8 Paris, France Hard (i) QF 7–5, 6–2
122. Japan Kei Nishikori 7 Paris, France Hard (i) SF 6–2, 6–3
123. Canada Milos Raonic 10 Paris, France Hard (i) F 6–2, 6–3
124. Croatia Marin Čilić 9 ATP World Tour Finals, London, UK Hard (i) RR 6–1, 6–1
125. Switzerland Stan Wawrinka 4 ATP World Tour Finals, London, UK Hard (i) RR 6–3, 6–0
126. Czech Republic Tomáš Berdych 7 ATP World Tour Finals, London, UK Hard (i) RR 6–2, 6–2
127. Japan Kei Nishikori 5 ATP World Tour Finals, London, UK Hard (i) SF 6–1, 3–6, 6–0
2015
128. Canada Milos Raonic 8 Australian Open, Melbourne, Australia Hard QF 7–6(7–5), 6–4, 6–2
129. Switzerland Stan Wawrinka 4 Australian Open, Melbourne, Australia Hard SF 7–6(7–1), 3–6, 6–4, 4–6, 6–0
130. United Kingdom Andy Murray 6 Australian Open, Melbourne, Australia Hard F 7–6(7–5), 6–7(4–7), 6–3, 6–0
131. Czech Republic Tomáš Berdych 8 Dubai, United Arab Emirates Hard SF 6–0, 5–7, 6–4
132. United Kingdom Andy Murray 4 Indian Wells, US Hard SF 6–2, 6–3
133. Switzerland Roger Federer 2 Indian Wells, US Hard F 6–3, 6–7(5–7), 6–2
134. Spain David Ferrer 7 Miami, US Hard QF 7–5, 7–5
135. United Kingdom Andy Murray 4 Miami, US Hard F 7–6(7–3), 4–6, 6–0
136. Croatia Marin Čilić 10 Monte Carlo, Monaco Clay QF 6–0, 6–3
137. Spain Rafael Nadal 5 Monte Carlo, Monaco Clay SF 6–3, 6–3
138. Czech Republic Tomáš Berdych 8 Monte Carlo, Monaco Clay F 7–5, 4–6, 6–3
139. Japan Kei Nishikori 6 Rome, Italy Clay QF 6–3, 3–6, 6–1
140. Spain David Ferrer 8 Rome, Italy Clay SF 6–4, 6–4
141. Switzerland Roger Federer 2 Rome, Italy Clay F 6–4, 6–3
142. Spain Rafael Nadal 7 French Open, Paris, France Clay QF 7–5, 6–3, 6–1
143. United Kingdom Andy Murray 3 French Open, Paris, France Clay SF 6–3, 6–3, 5–7, 5–7, 6–1
144. Croatia Marin Čilić 9 Wimbledon, London, UK Grass QF 6–4, 6–4, 6–4
145. Switzerland Roger Federer 2 Wimbledon, London, UK Grass F 7–6(7–1), 6–7(10–12), 6–4, 6–3
146. Switzerland Stan Wawrinka 5 Cincinnati, US Hard QF 6–4, 6–1
147. Croatia Marin Čilić 9 US Open, New York, US Hard SF 6–0, 6–1, 6–2
148. Switzerland Roger Federer 2 US Open, New York, US Hard F 6–4, 5–7, 6–4, 6–4



Federer 2006:

62. Russia Nikolay Davydenko 5 Australian Open, Melbourne, Australia Hard QF 6–4, 3–6, 7–6(9–7), 7–6(7–5) 1
63. Croatia Ivan Ljubičić 6 Indian Wells, United States Hard QF 6–2, 6–3 1
64. United States James Blake 9 Miami, United States Hard QF 7–6(7–2), 6–4 1
65. Croatia Ivan Ljubičić 6 Miami, United States Hard F 7–6(7–5), 7–6(7–4), 7–6(8–6) 1
66. Argentina David Nalbandian 3 Rome, Italy Clay SF 6–3, 3–6, 7–6(7–5) 1
67. Argentina David Nalbandian 3 French Open, Paris, France Clay SF 3–6, 6–4, 5–2 ret. 1
68. Croatia Mario Ančić 10 Wimbledon, London, England Grass QF 6–4, 6–4, 6–4 1
69. Spain Rafael Nadal 2 Wimbledon, London, England Grass F 6–0, 7–6(7–5), 6–7(2–7), 6–3 1
70. United States James Blake 7 US Open, New York, United States Hard QF 7–6(9–7), 6–0, 6–7(9–11), 6–4 1
71. Russia Nikolay Davydenko 6 US Open, New York, United States Hard SF 6–1, 7–5, 6–4 1
72. United States Andy Roddick 10 US Open, New York, United States Hard F 6–2, 4–6, 7–5, 6–1 1
73. Argentina David Nalbandian 4 Madrid, Spain Hard (i) SF 6–4, 6–0 1
74. Chile Fernando González 10 Madrid, Spain Hard (i) F 7–5, 6–1, 6–0 1
75. Chile Fernando González 7 Basel, Switzerland Carpet (i) F 6–3, 6–2, 7–6(7–3) 1
76. Argentina David Nalbandian 7 Tennis Masters Cup, Shanghai, China Hard (i) RR 3–6, 6–1, 6–1 1
77. United States Andy Roddick 5 Tennis Masters Cup, Shanghai, China Hard (i) RR 4–6, 7–6(10–8), 6–4 1
78. Croatia Ivan Ljubičić 4 Tennis Masters Cup, Shanghai, China Hard (i) RR 7–6(7–2), 6–4 1
79. Spain Rafael Nadal 2 Tennis Masters Cup, Shanghai, China Hard (i) SF 6–4, 7–5 1
80. United States James Blake 8 Tennis Masters Cup, Shanghai, China Hard (i) F 6–0, 6–3, 6–4

 

[Denis]

Win percentage: Fed was 92-5 (95%) in 2006, Novak is 81-6 (93%) since exactly one year.

Im a bit surprised Fed managed to play 97 matches in 2006. That is 10 more matches than Novak.

 

[Front242]

It's all relative really. Croatia Marin Čilić 9 US Open, New York, US Hard SF 6–0, 6–1, 6–2 above looks like a massacre to anyone who didn't watch the match but the reality is that Cilic had an ankle injury and contemplated pulling out before that match was even played so that's 1 top 10 victory match that's completely out of place seeing as he couldn't play like a top 100 player. I can say without giving it a 2nd glance all the guys Fed beat were in their prime in 2006 and playing very well. Cilic was also utter crap after the USO last year as he had a shoulder injury. Hence the 6-1 6-1 drubbing at the WTF. Cilic lost all his matches at the WTF last year because of his shoulder injury so that's not exactly a claim to fame top 10 win right there. There's no argument for Novak's 2015. 2011 is the only one that can stand up next to Roger's 2006 imo. 2015 as Darth pointed out, he's had most of his competition from 34 year old Federer.

 

[Fiero425]

It's all relative really. Croatia Marin Čilić 9 US Open, New York, US Hard SF 6–0, 6–1, 6–2 above looks like a massacre to anyone who didn't watch the match but the reality is that Cilic had an ankle injury and contemplated pulling out before that match was even played so that's 1 top 10 victory match that's completely out of place seeing as he couldn't play like a top 100 player. I can say without giving it a 2nd glance all the guys Fed beat were in their prime in 2006 and playing very well. Cilic was also utter crap after the USO last year as he had a shoulder injury. Hence the 6-1 6-1 drubbing at the WTF. There's no argument for Novak's 2015. 2011 is the only one that can stand up next to Roger's 2006 imo. 2015 as Darth pointed out, he's had most of his competition from 34 year old Federer.

Nole still takes up room in the record books concerning Masters 1000's; winning the 1st 3 of the season and the 1st 4 he played, & being a R-up in his 5th and 6th! Djokovic may never get anywhere near Roger and Rafa in GS wins, but he's likely to obliterate other records set by FEDAL! :eyepop :clap :angel: :dodgy:

 

[DarthFed]

If we are doing the whole 1 year since a random date thing we could probably take Roger from IW 2006 - Dubai 2007 and he then drops another loss off the books and would be something like 93-4

 

[Denis]

If we are doing the whole 1 year since a random date thing we could probably take Roger from IW 2006 - Dubai 2007 and he then drops another loss off the books and would be something like 93-4

Fair enough, doing it since the year has not finished and great hands started the comparison on that basis.

 

[Denis]

It's all relative really. Croatia Marin Čilić 9 US Open, New York, US Hard SF 6–0, 6–1, 6–2 above looks like a massacre to anyone who didn't watch the match but the reality is that Cilic had an ankle injury and contemplated pulling out before that match was even played so that's 1 top 10 victory match that's completely out of place seeing as he couldn't play like a top 100 player. I can say without giving it a 2nd glance all the guys Fed beat were in their prime in 2006 and playing very well. Cilic was also utter crap after the USO last year as he had a shoulder injury. Hence the 6-1 6-1 drubbing at the WTF. Cilic lost all his matches at the WTF last year because of his shoulder injury so that's not exactly a claim to fame top 10 win right there. There's no argument for Novak's 2015. 2011 is the only one that can stand up next to Roger's 2006 imo. 2015 as Darth pointed out, he's had most of his competition from 34 year old Federer.

Front, it's 30-18 in top 10 wins. even if Feds opponents were at the top of capabilities it's a telling stat.

 

[Great Hands]

Interesting discussion guys, thanks!

I agree that even though Novak is very dominant at the moment, Novak's 2011 is the one that is more comparable with Roger's 2006, in terms of the level he was producing and the level of competition.

I think we could also say that Novak's Nov 2014 - Oct 2015 is more consistently dominant than Federer's 2006 in terms of big titles - more Masters titles than Fed in 2006 already!
But the way Fed dominated was very different. Novak is often battling through matches. Federer in his prime seemed to beat everyone so serenely. His aura of invincibility was greater than Novak's, IMO.

Regardless of where you are in the debate, the fact that Novak now has 2 years of great dominance does cement his position as one of the greats of the game though, in my opinion, rather than if he'd kept having years like 2012-2014 - i.e. being world no.1 most of the time but "only" winning 1 slam a year.

 

[isabelle]

See video on l'Equipe, Nole created a new shot ???

 

[nehmeth]

See video on l'Equipe, Nole created a new shot ???

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=5SVEygJCU6I[/video]

 

[Fiero425]

See video on l'Equipe, Nole created a new shot ???

You're kidding right? Other players have tried, succeeded, and gotten a ball back that way; maybe not a screaming winner, but even I've done it teaching! :cover :nono :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kirijax]

See video on l'Equipe, Nole created a new shot ???

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=5SVEygJCU6I[/video]

If I tried that, I'd probably throw my back out for a week.

 

[Front242]

Nalbandian's one was more memorable seeing as it was in an actual match.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt_W9xzl864[/video]